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Author	Topic: The Character Designers Guild
Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/28/06 8:55pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 8:57pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Trimaj
	but it does still happen though sephy. oh and sorry it's taken me so long to say this, but congrats on winning the sheet contest. that was indeed a good one. about the situation under debate, i'm not that sure which way i stand. if you're actually going to be using a squad like that you may want to have a sort of preliminary sheet used so that it seems as though some time went in to making them, even if it's just name, rank and role. that way it won't seem as much as if you just made them "pop" into existence. make it known that if more information is wanted it can and will be provided. however, it can seem a little to conveniant to have that happen as well, unless it is made known in advance that it will be done, in which case others can prepare for it. and clearing it with the GM is probably a pretty good idea as well, that way if there are problems a GM can already have a prelimanry stance on the subject and can make a ruling from that stance instead of seeming unilateral about it. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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Imperial_Hammer Title: Manager: • SWRPF • NSWRPF • RPR Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:04pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 9:13pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Imperial_Hammer
	LW: Perhaps then, you should get in the habit of posting CSes. I know for me as a player, I use them as flags for legitimate characters. You may have put in a great amount of time behind the scenes developing Interpol, but alas, I cannot see that work you put in. So how am I to know what is or is not a well-summoned mob? Plank Theory: But thats what NPCs are in my opinion. Angry Planks. If you want detail, make a PC. Its almost definitional that NPCs have minimal to no backstory. If you abolish this, then really, it begs the question, what is the difference between an NPC and a PC? Tri: To me, if you want to make a companion, just bite the bullet and make it a PC. Again, your scenario begs the question: if you invest time into an NPC, is it still an NPC? To me, it becomes a PC and should be treated as such. Sephy: Pops: As a GM, I don't care who you make in my game. But should I be in the position to adjudicate a dispute between Pops and a more "established" PC: Such as Muurg, Trak, Cindy, Kellerman, or what have you, I may have to take that into consideration... Self-Killing: Oh of course, I totally agree. Players can kill which-ever of their own characters whenever they want, where-ever they want. I have no problems there Token Ssi-Ruuvi Official: Absolutely And thats how it should be in my eyes. In the end, it comes down to different gaming philosophies... I always slave OOC, or "Pre-Fiat" issues above In Game Stuff... Proper GMing, IMVHO, involves dealing with your users needs first, and the needs of the game second... Its a very thorney issue, and I'm sort of glad we are having this debate.... Each person has their own ways of looking at things, you know? In the end, as long as you respect the person behind the opinion, thats all that matters. -I_H -----signature----- Guildmaster of the GDG Now looking for a new RPF Adoptee The Jedi Way is something found within, not in the dead walls of any Order
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Detonating-Rabbit Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:10pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 9:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Detonating-Rabbit
	Despised1 posted: "I think that if you name the character, then it's wasted on something as limited as a NRC." Why? Its just a name and a few traits and it is easy to find more names, I don't see it as a waste at all if the NRC actually adds to the flavor of the RPG. I think it would be a bigger waste to pass up an opportunity to develop the RPG more, even if it is simply by adding details through a NRC (I rather like that term ). MASTERPRENN posted: But why make use of an NRC, when you can use an NPC, and have the possibility open of that person returning, even if you don't plan on using that character again. You may be in a situation where you need that character to make the game better that you never forsaw coming. My point exactly. Why use and develop a character if it's for one post? The idea, to me at least, is a slightly absurd one. And despite the debate, I think it largely up to the individual author why he/she might use an NPC (or even what they might consider an NPC to be). As relevent as some of the above points are, I tend to disagree with the generalised "NPC = subordinate/inferior" rhetoric... But that's not to say that I disagree with you, Imp; you do bring up some interesting and suitably understandable points. There's nothing more I dislike than someone who brings in a squad of ARC Commandos, or Mandolorians for the purpose of trying to eliminate/injure/control another player's character or actions. But as you did say, you're speaking from your experienced position. I'm merely thinking from mine... Imperial_Hammer posted: Each person has their own ways of looking at things, you know? In the end, as long as you respect the person behind the opinion, thats all that matters. That's what I'm getting at... -----signature----- "I've never met a zombie that I haven't killed." === "But she bit me! I didn't pay for that!" === "I'm sorry, Jonny. We had to shoot your mum. It turned out she was a zombie in the bedroom..."
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:15pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 9:17pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Trimaj
	another difference presents itself I_H, are you actually playing with the character, or are they just there whenever your PC is? that would be the biggest difference in my eyes between NPCs and PCs. if you actually delve into the thoughts of the character in the post then it's a PC, and use them when the other character you are using isn't there, if you don't do those two things it's still an NPC and should be viewed as such. but there is a question as well, what constitutes an established NPC that should be taken seriously from those "angry planks"? EDIT if it's for one post only, let them be a faceless drone with no name, that's a far inferior NPC, and what an NRC is in my opinion. if it goes beyond a single post then it becomes and NPC. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:16pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	"Purpose" pretty much describes all of my characters though, all the ones I've built so far and all the ones I've planned. I build them for some kind of effect or mission. For the two squads, it was about humanizing the oposition, because many of the fights simply involve gunning down waves of drones, who don't think but just stand, fire, and die. It was also about showing respect to the people I was sending them against, treating their characters seriously by giving them serious opponents to challenge them in their pursuits of goals. Hand-crafted opponents are always more serious than by-the-numbers foes that you throw away like tissues. I always thought of it as "I respect you enough that I'm going to give you a real fight." But "sole purpose"? No more than any of the others I've made. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Shalin's more of a "sole purpose" character than any of the ERT. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Imperial_Hammer Title: Manager: • SWRPF • NSWRPF • RPR Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:31pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 9:37pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Imperial_Hammer
	Deto: No worries boss... its all good! Tri: NPCs as Non-Character Developed, Slaved Characters: Definitely I would feel that that envelops the core of what an NPC is. But I do feel that the concept of work invested should still be considered here. What if you have a one-posted, non-sheeted reflectional character. Should that be considered a PC? Plank Theory: I would ultimately think the term, an "established NPC" is an oxymoron. If its established, its not an NPC. My definition, in my opinion, defines what an NPC is the most clearly. If there is no "legitamacy" (in-thread work) behind it, then its an NPC. If there is, then its a PC. All players are given one PC at the beginning of a game.... the one or two they put out sheets for. They gain automatic legitamacy. But after that, one would think you need to earn your pull in a game. NRCs: So now we are using NRCs in our vernacular? The concept is an interesting one to be sure, but your line seems rather arbitrary. What if its two or three posts? Is that an NPC or an NRC? I could have be ICing a mailman that is engaging in conversation with his recipients. If I do a convo of snippet posts, with no reflection, and then a disappearing afterwards, what is he? NPC? NRC? PC? LW: On Purpose: What about characters whose purpose is themselves? I think as long as you make characters to only serve a purpose, they'll never be viewed as anything more than what they are... namely tools. And who gives tools any positions of legitimacy? This issue really not only involves what is or is not an NPC, but what rights such characters are designated to have... I say none.... no rights at all.... NPCs are planks to be discarded... make established PCs if you want real issues... You alls should deem yourself the "NPC Rights Movement".... Imagines the picket signs: NPCs are people too!" -I_H -----signature----- Guildmaster of the GDG Now looking for a new RPF Adoptee The Jedi Way is something found within, not in the dead walls of any Order
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:45pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	oh brother... no comment about the movement. first, the character used as a one post reflectional character would still be an NPC, as it's not a character with a sheet and it isn't going to be around for longer than that one post. it could even be considered an NRC i suppose, if you really want to include that into the vernacular. and you're right, considering the work involved, it should be considere turning the character into a PC, and giving them more legitimacy than they would have had otherwise. just for the sake of discussion, what would you do if said NPC is an AI for a ship? should it be turned into a PC if you plan on using it on a regular basis? second, i don't think i agree about it being an oxymoron, mainly because as you go through a game an NPC becomes more well known, and as such can gain respect on their own. if there is in thread work behind the character then it's a PC no matter how you're using the character? that doesn't quite follow, because if you aren't actually going beyond face value with the character is it really role playing? and as such can it truly be a PC? third, it may seem abitrary, but if you are going to have someone around for more than one post it would seem like an NPC to me. mainly because i would think that business with an NRC could be covered in one post, unless the GM doesn't want anything other than PCs used by the players. in which case it becomes the scene, as the scene could be handled by a single post otherwise in most cases. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:47pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/28/06 9:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Trimaj
	sighs and hates the internet at times -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/28/06 9:54pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	In the style I'm used to, NPC means Non-Player Character, not Non Player-Character. In other words, the NPC is the property of the GM. As far as I'm concerned, anything produced by the players is just a PC of various character depth. As to purpose, what I think I'm trying to say is that they're built with an idea, a theme, a goal, a challenge in mind, and then go from there, or don't. You set them in motion then they interact with their environment. Some change, some don't. The way I see it, they're just as much "tools" as your own characters are/were. The way I see it, you built your own TBT to serve purposes, and went from there. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Detonating-Rabbit Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 4/28/06 11:23pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	LightWarden posted: In the style I'm used to, NPC means Non-Player Character, not Non Player-Character. In other words, the NPC is the property of the GM. As far as I'm concerned, anything produced by the players is just a PC of various character depth. But what if an NPC is created by a player; does it automatically become property of the GM, or of all the other players? And what if an NPC is written in character? In my mind, it is still an NPC; it is not the player's primary character, and, generally speaking, has no bio or 'history' to speak of. However, it is a minor or minor/main character that plays a less pivotal, but important, role with respect to the position (or plot line) of a player's primary character. If this all makes sense, you can have a star... -----signature----- "I've never met a zombie that I haven't killed." === "But she bit me! I didn't pay for that!" === "I'm sorry, Jonny. We had to shoot your mum. It turned out she was a zombie in the bedroom..."
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/29/06 9:01am Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	gets star that does make sense deto, and more or less what i agree with as well. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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Sith-I-5 Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 4/30/06 9:06am Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/30/06 9:34am (1 edits total) Edited By: Sith-I-5
	The situation over NPCs versus PCs occurred in the CarbonEye game. We had a situation where we have thirty plus established good guy characters being sent all over the galaxy on separate missions, and Imperial_Hammer inserting his bad guys into the one place in the galaxy where everyone isn't - Coruscant. Fair enough, none of the characters have a reason to come back. Then Hammer's team sets off a series of atrocities across the city, and we have no-one in the area. Now, as the RL inhabitant of a metropolitan city, it is my personal experience and belief, that emergency services WILL turn up. And if we are going to even remotely claim to be a serious rpg, we shouldn't cancel that scenario simply because we haven't the time to do character sheets. And Hammer's insistence that they have a months playability beforehand is guano in that particular situation. Imperial_Hammer posted: Sephy: Pops: As a GM, I don't care who you make in my game. But should I be in the position to adjudicate a dispute between Pops and a more "established" PC: Such as Muurg, Trak, Cindy, Kellerman, or what have you, I may have to take that into consideration... Mm. I have to wonder now. Did I ever do a sheet for Cindy? As for NRCs, having only just encountered them in Galaxy at War, I am assuming that that game has such a multitude of story arcs going on, that the NRC tag is meant to warn people not to worry about having to track this new character. -----signature----- Crowning Moment of Awesome – THE MASTER. Summoning six billion robotic beach balls Of Doom to decimate the Earth, blowing a good-bye kiss to the Doctor, all the while dancing to "Voodoo Child". EPIC. EVIL. WIN. 007 Family - DVC's twin bro'.
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Winged_Jedi Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 4/30/06 10:58am Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Ooh, controversy. Lovely. In this particular debate, I'm firmly in the Hammer camp. I_H remarked: I say none.... no rights at all.... NPCs are planks to be discarded... make established PCs if you want real issues... And I completely agree. If you want to put so much thought into a character's design, it begs the question: why don't you make them a PC instead? Here's the truth of it- NPCs are tools used by the GM to advance the game. Unfortunately, in practice it isn't feasible for the GM to control every single NPC, and so it becomes permissible for players to control the minor ones (store vendors, common thugs, etc). NPCs which have major influence over storyline either become full-blown-approved-character-sheet PCs or they become exclusively GM-controlled. Now, Sith-I-5, as you seem to be focusing on this CarbonEye incident, let me give you my thoughts on it (such as they are, coming from someone who wasn't there). I agree that the emergency services would arrive to help- that is the logical consequence of IH's actions. However, only the GM has the power to post the consequences of another player's actions, and therefore these NPCs should have been GM-controlled, not player-controlled. -----signature----- "The Wire"- the smartest show ever made.
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 11:30am Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Winged_Jedi posted: If you want to put so much thought into a character's design, it begs the question: why don't you make them a PC instead? Well, my definition: PC = Player Character (among so many other things, it's really an overburdened abbreviation). Character I'm playing = PC. I may not use them many times, but they're still PCs. Character the GM is using = NPC. Even if it has a character sheet Anyways, even if we're talking about NPCs, I still don't see why you can't gift them with appearances, traits, personalities, habits, or even minor histories to various degrees. It adds texture to the story, improves your writing style. Style in a vacuum is fine, I suppose, but style amidst more style, more details, more vibrancy and color, in short: more texture is a far better way of bringing it to life artistically. Because realistically, there's no one in this world who doesn't have any of those features, so using them just enhances your work. It's not mandated, but I prefer it, it makes things far more interesting to read. My favorite writers use it, and my favorite role-players use it. Your milage may vary, but I'm sticking to it. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Winged_Jedi Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 4/30/06 12:03pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	LW, I agree with your definitions in terms of technical accuracy. Any character ever used by a player, sheet or no, is technically a Player Character. However, for the purposes of this argument, I'll continue to refer to the no-sheet characters as NPCs. Now...your points on depth for NPCs, traits, personalities, vibrancy, etc- I am in complete agreement. Don't get me wrong, I believe those are good things for NPCs to have. Ideally, a GM will control the NPCs and give them unique characteristics and histories. And when a player has to control NPCs, it's great if they can do the same. However- don't expect those characters to be treated in the same way as PCs. Just because the NPCs have rich backgrounds doesn't stop them from being NPCs. The auto-hitting rule, for example, should not apply to NPCs, no matter how much thought has been put into them by another player- if that player takes objection, they should ask for the character to be recognised as a PC and not an NPC. -----signature----- "The Wire"- the smartest show ever made.
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