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Author	Topic: The Character Designers Guild
SephyCloneNo15 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 4/30/06 12:07pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Wing, in my experience, it's the other way around. Take for example, Podracer, we have our major NPCs like Murrg's father... wait, actually scratch that. You're forgetting a category of NPCs. You have the plot-advancing ones like the guys who cut the ribbons at the villages in Podracer, or like I'm assuming that Thaddeus fella will be in Archangels. Then you have the lesser NPCs like the shopkeeps and bartenders. In my experience, I tend to see shopkeeps controlled by the GM (to preven players from taking control and cutting themselves absurd deals, I would assume) and bartenders are generally allowed to be player-controlled because who wants to tag the GM every time you need another round? Thugs can be either player-controlled or GM-controlled, and it hardly matters because they rarely go beyond plank theory. Then, there's the major character-advancing NPCs. These are like Murrg's father or Cindy, the PC's friends, family, co-workers, and sidekicks if you will. They tend to be almost exclusively player-controlled. Because they have little bearing on the actual plot, they are of little use to the GM. LW, what, praytell, does PC stand for besides Player-Character and Personal Computer? I guess maybe Player-Controlled, but outside of that, I don't see that as an 'overburdened acronym'. -----signature----- Member: GDG, GMG. Sub-GM: CDG Zam Wessel Lives! Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Squib Creations Limited-Edition Replica Glove of Darth Vader™ "Samuel L. Jackson isn't only a fine actor, but a gamer. He's one of us." ~ Kotaku
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Sith-I-5 Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 4/30/06 12:09pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Winged_Jedi posted: Now, Sith-I-5, as you seem to be focusing on this CarbonEye incident, let me give you my thoughts on it (such as they are, coming from someone who wasn't there). I agree that the emergency services would arrive to help- that is the logical consequence of IH's actions. However, only the GM has the power to post the consequences of another player's actions, and therefore these NPCs should have been GM-controlled, not player-controlled. Sorry, I completely don't agree. In the rpgs I have participated in, no-one has ever stated that only the GM can create NPCs. And certainly, it would be unfeasible or unrealistic for only the GM to be able to "to post the consequences of another player's actions" Surely any player with character within the range of the incident should be able to react to it. Like a nuclear explosion goes off in the Theed countryside. I have observers in orbit. Are you saying that I am not allowed to notice a fragging great yellow ring of destruction blossoming across the planet?! -----signature----- Crowning Moment of Awesome – THE MASTER. Summoning six billion robotic beach balls Of Doom to decimate the Earth, blowing a good-bye kiss to the Doctor, all the while dancing to "Voodoo Child". EPIC. EVIL. WIN. 007 Family - DVC's twin bro'.
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Imperial_Hammer Title: Manager: • SWRPF • NSWRPF • RPR Registered: Sep '04	Date Posted: 4/30/06 1:03pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Good to see I have someone on my side. High-five Winged... Sithy (1st): -Carboneye: Like I said before, I'm not interested in going into the specifics of what happened here. Whats done is done, it would detract from the focus of this thread, and there are still far more issues I could bring up to spice the situation. We've talked about this before. You know where I stand, and I know where you stand. -Cindy: Cindy to me is a prime example of an NPC turned PC. For her, you have invested a sufficient amount of effort and capital to gain her many of the rights I would afford in-game to traditional characters. The only people in-game that would carry more weight than her would be the original sheeted racers that are still in practice today. Kellerman, Chad, Kavark, etc. Winged (1st): -woot! -On NPCs as solely tools of the GM: Yeeeeaah, I suppose I would fall into agreement with you there. Yours is an even more conservative definition than even my own. I see your definition as the right and generally established duties of an NPC. -On the Dichotomy:I do like your dichotomy between major and minor roles, and it reminds me of a new plank I put in my rules that only the GM will advance major story-arcs. I do think the characters in-game rules do have some point to play in a game. LW: -On What Is a PC: No, I do think your definition is a little too wide. Because then you invest every character with a legitimacy that Winged and I state should go only to Sheeted, Major Role Playing PCs. This opens wide the doors for abuse and all the rest of the bad things I've talked about. There needs to be a split between characters that are important and have work put into them, and characters that don't. -Well Constructed NPCs: I agree with Winged here as well, and reference my own analogy. Well constructed NPCs are like flowers in a yard. Nice, but not needed. To construct detailed NPCs is like art for art's sake. It'll distinguish you as a good gamer, but in an in-game decision-making calculus, should no weight. Winged (2nd): -On NPC Rights: What can I say, I'm in total agreement. NPCs should be slaved to PCs in rights. Its only fair to people that put the time in to establish their real characters. The Auto-Hitting rule should not apply to NPCs. Sephy: -"On Major NPCs": I dunno how Winged wants to answer this, but I will give you my take on it. Like I said, Major NPCs are just PCs in the making. Pops, Cindy, the Rest.... in any game that I run.... are going to be characters that are in the process of turning into PCs. Depending on the work put in, they will establish certain degrees of legitimacy that I will consider in assessing situations. This rule however, changes, from GMing Style to GMing style. Personally, I let characters do what they wish in-game. I consider my role as a GM as primarily an adjudicator and shepard. I guide the game along and mediate/judge disputes. -PC as an acronym: You can view it a few ways. Although I believe it technically stands for playable character, I like to consider it sometimes as "personal character," one that a player takes as his own to develop and partake in any role-playing game. What the acronym means though ultimately is moot compared to the issue at hand. Sithy (2nd) -On NPCs as GM controlled: I think what Winged was trying to say revolves more around major, plot revolving issues. You cite now the Theed Incident from OHMSS. Without again, going into the nitty-gritty, because we've talked about this... NPCs that are minor and non-plot impacting can do whatever they wish. But if NPCs alone are to have any significant impact on one or more player, the actions should be controlled by the GM, in accordance to a GM's duty to shape and transform a game. NPCs can observe stuff and add to the flavor of a game, but ultimately, when it comes down to established PCs, they can't do jack-diddly. And personally, I add one more little scenario for you all to munch on. Say what the NPC Rights people say is true, that they should be able to have some affect on the lives and plots of PCs.... and that incidents should be decided on skills alone. Would it not follow that something like this could happen? Say, for perverted kicks, I take up the hobby of board-wide character assassin. If NPCs should be weighed in an in-game decision making calculus, I technically could pop into any and every game (with or without GM approval, this point hardly matters).... choose a character as prey.... and out-RP that player until he's dead. And then.... when I achieve that goal, I leave the game and move on. All your work, down the tubes, because you were out-RPed. If you cite Auto-hitting, thats fine, but under your rules, that would apply to me too. So such an interpretation than NPCs have rights opens the doors for anyone to come in anytime and start killing off characters. The inner-game hierarchy that Winged and I advocate stops such abuse. Hot-shots can't just waltz in and start picking off characters, either by out-RPing them or out-numbering them. Under our interpretation, it matters if you've been around... it matters that you've put the work in.... and we protect newer players from the abuses of a total meritocracy... -I_H -----signature----- Guildmaster of the GDG Now looking for a new RPF Adoptee The Jedi Way is something found within, not in the dead walls of any Order
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 1:19pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Well, I'm of the opinion that the GM/DM always has the final say in what happens, and can post damage or results whenever he pleases, but that may be as a result of my experience with dice games. But otherwise, players should feel free to control their characters and have them react to things around them, assuming they're aware of it. And they can always choose to do more damage to their characters if within reason, I suppose; no sense in having a tap on the back cause their lungs to come flying out through their rib cage. It makes me wonder though: Something I'm used to in dice based games is the clear distinguishing of power and abilities. In other words, there were people who were markedly better at things than you were, even if you prided yourself on it. In freeform, I'm not so sure if it's that easy to figure out. Because unless two people agree or the GM lays down the law, it's difficult to tell if one person's skills are good enough to best another's. Fun fact regarding the watching things go boom, because I was bored and reviewing physics: It all depends on what distance you're at, where you are relative to it and what sort of equipment you're using to observe it. Technically, even a cockroach is visible from orbit, though you may not have the equipment necessary to resolve the image (though it's said that there are sattelites powerful enough that, to borrow my friend's analogy "if you were making an open-faced peanut butter sandwich outside, they could tell you if it was chunky or smooth"). If we're talking about naked eye, the average can resolve at best something that's 1 unit in diameter for every 1250 units away (rough estimate, it's about the angular resolution, the human eye needs an angle of roughly .02 to .04 degrees between two objects in order to recognize them as two seperate things, depending on wavelength of light and the diameter of the iris- the Rayleigh Criterion). And that's the near limit of the human eye. So assuming someone is putzing around in middle earth orbit (ranges from 1,500 km at the edge of the atmosphere or so to 35,000 km for geosynchronus) at 15,000 km above sea level (about 9000 miles), you'd need something about 12 km in diameter or so (again, rough estimate, about the size of Saint Helena or so) to go up in a bright flash of light to see it as a tiny sparkle if it contrasted enough with the environment. Of course, most people who are up at these levels usually have some sort of viewing things, so it does throw things about. Who cares? Science is fun. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Sith-I-5 Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 4/30/06 1:31pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Just want to jump in to say I haven't invoked 'auto-hitting' to do with npcs, pcs, or any other entity. My npcs primarily attempt to stop bad guys from escaping from ground to hyperspace in one post, which appears to be a primary skill of both Hammer and DVC in my experience. I just get things in the air to slow 'em down and effect an arrest. -----signature----- Crowning Moment of Awesome – THE MASTER. Summoning six billion robotic beach balls Of Doom to decimate the Earth, blowing a good-bye kiss to the Doctor, all the while dancing to "Voodoo Child". EPIC. EVIL. WIN. 007 Family - DVC's twin bro'.
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 1:56pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild - Date Edited: 4/30/06 2:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: LightWarden
	Hammer, if you can out-RP people legitimately and take down their characters without resorting to cheap tricks such as metagaming, god-modding, deck stacking or breaking the rules, I don't see what the problem is. It wouldn't be pleasant, and you'd be on the fast trip to the fortress of solitude, but if you can legitimately outfight a character, you should be able to legitimately take them out. But in free-form, it's hard to tell what "legitimate" means, aside from displaying the ability to out-think your opponents. And by that I mean showing the GM you can out-think your opponent by telling him what your opponent does/what you'll make him do before he does it. Though legitimate also includes having all factors locked in at the start of the fight, so no victory through rabbits pulled from hats. And the GM moderating the battle, with full knowledge of the capabilities and possessions of all the participants. Readers may notice the similarities between my ideas of "legitimate" and some of the ideas behind dice-based games. This is not a coincidence. My problem with your scenario is that I believe that the GM is law, and has the final say in everything. He may veto anything he pleases, and has the right to request all changes be submitted to him for approval. He may even post actions for your character if he pleases, though that's often considered bad form unless there's a plot reason (such as mind control, or the player is absent for an extended period). It is my personal belief that you should not surprise the GM, and if you do he should have final say on anything. But if he lets you hunt his flock, then hunt away. I believe that NPCs (when the property of the GM) should have the power to radically alter whatever. Similarly secondary characters and such should have the power to affect their environment. Abuse of this power is considered to be very bad form. If you disagree with a player over their use of minor characters, by all means discuss it with them. If you still can't decide, then the GM has the final say. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 2:30pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	PC- politcially correct, percent, Presbyterian Church, parsec, Productivity Commission, pro-choice, Pubococcygeus muscle, and several colleges are among the ones I've heard of. I'm sure there's plenty more. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Winged_Jedi Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 4/30/06 3:08pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	I_H: and a high five to you my good man! Time to strike back at the NPC Brigade Sith-I-5 posted: Sorry, I completely don't agree. In the rpgs I have participated in, no-one has ever stated that only the GM can create NPCs. And certainly, it would be unfeasible or unrealistic for only the GM to be able to "to post the consequences of another player's actions" Surely any player with character within the range of the incident should be able to react to it. Like a nuclear explosion goes off in the Theed countryside. I have observers in orbit. Are you saying that I am not allowed to notice a fragging great yellow ring of destruction blossoming across the planet?! You misunderstand me- firstly I never said that only a GM can create NPCs. I said only a GM can create NPCs who have major influence over storyline. And of course you may post your character's reactions. And you can also post the reactions of NPCs you made up on the spot if you like, UNLESS they affect storyline, it's like I_H already mentioned. For example, if one of my characters was responsible for the nuclear explosion you mention above, another player might create a one-off NPC simply to react to the event, purely to add a little detail and depth and flavour. Fair enough. However, if that NPC is a fleet of ships come to arrest the perpetrator, then the player has gone past mere reaction and into the realms of GMing. That was my point, because that seems to be what happened in the CarbonEye incident you mentioned earlier. In your last post, you say that: My npcs primarily attempt to stop bad guys from escaping from ground to hyperspace in one post, which appears to be a primary skill of both Hammer and DVC in my experience. I just get things in the air to slow 'em down and effect an arrest. But that's precisely what I mean- only a GM should be able to do that. Imagine an RP which is all about the Vader vs Luke duel in RotJ. And I'm Vader, but Luke's player out-RPs me, kicks my ass, and escapes the throne room. Then imagine I take control of all the stormtroopers in the vicinity as NPCs and start hunting Luke down. It's unfair because I'm taking control of NPCs purely to gain an advantage over another player (in this case, a numerical advantage). SephyCloneNo15, I agree with you, and you raise interesting points. I'm going with I_H's answer- character advancing NPCs like the ones you mentioned are really PCs in all but name. Once NPCs become so established that other players consider factors such as auto-hitting when interacting with them, it's clear to me those NPCs have 'evolved' into PCs. LightWarden, from your last post: Hammer, if you can out-RP people legitimately and take down their characters without resorting to cheap tricks such as metagaming, god-modding, deck stacking or breaking the rules, I don't see what the problem is. But taking down other characters through use and abuse of NPCs is a cheap trick. It is also god-modding, because you're effectively 'magicking' characters into existence wherever and whenever it's most convenient for you, and justifying it through 'but I gave them a detailed background and a history so it's okay'. As you say, though, the GM does have the final say, so I suppose he/she can keep things in check, and often that is the case. -----signature----- "The Wire"- the smartest show ever made.
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 4:47pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	I think we're in agreement. Abuse of the power to create is a bad thing, especially if all you're doing is attempting to give people a hard time. However, it can be used correctly it can enhance the playing experience, by challenging the other players. That's the GM's job, which is why I've always asked him before doing anything involving characters (with the exception of the incidents involving jedijethro, who was making no attempt to follow any rules whatsoever. I feel justified in my actions). I just think that it's silly that guards and such are completely fodder with no purpose other than to show how quickly the PCs can clean up such fodder while only taking token shoulder wounds. Then again, it's almost a given. Still, it doesn't seem quite as interesting as an opponent who can fight back. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 4/30/06 4:59pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	I think this cliche is best described as "Everyone sucks but us." -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Rayson Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 4/30/06 7:31pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	I return... Well, a few days ago my grandmother was sent to the hospital, so if you wondering what my excuse for inactivity is, there you have it. Personally, I find my grandmother's health more important than the JCF, contrary to popular belief. Oh, don't worry, she's fine now. The Competition Well, first of all, it's nice to see that in my absence you folks can still keep a conversation rampant! And our winner, well, perhaps I won't tell you? Nah, I'm not that mean.. so everyone give a congratulations to: Despised1 I have to admit, it was a great read, and I really enjoyed it! To everyone else, all of your entries we're very well done. Despised1: Not only did you play the personality right for your character, but you described your character, despite the fact that we already had a general idea of what he Narmer should look like. Your death was very real, very plausible, and very convincing. Thoroughly enjoyed! I'll have the next subject up soon enough, but for now I'm just going to be lounging around the boards, fixing my computer, and quite possibly watching Return of the Jedi. And on a side note: Imperial_Hammer will be managing the Guild from the 5-14, as I'm going to be away. -----signature----- I love Star Wars. I play World of Warcraft. I read ...books. Dear God, What have I become?
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/30/06 8:36pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	congrats despised, as i said, it didn't stink anywhere near as much as you thought. and again, congrats sephy. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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SephyCloneNo15 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 4/30/06 8:36pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Given how much conversation it generated, I almost think we should have a separate thread (Guild?) for deciding the rights of NPCs. -----signature----- Member: GDG, GMG. Sub-GM: CDG Zam Wessel Lives! Recipient of Thrawn McEwok's Squib Creations Limited-Edition Replica Glove of Darth Vader™ "Samuel L. Jackson isn't only a fine actor, but a gamer. He's one of us." ~ Kotaku
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Trimaj Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 4/30/06 8:38pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	you may be right there sephy. that would work i think. -----signature----- I'm just a figment of your imagination. Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity. -Albert Einstein
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Penguinator-176 Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 4/30/06 8:40pm Subject: RE: The Character Designers Guild
	Good points all around. I like to let my players (when I have any) autohit NPCs. I write as NPCs, but I never post a CS. NPCs with a CS become PCs. Therefore, NPCs without a CS are akin to cannon-fodder. They live to die. Unless I say so. And this post gets my vote for "Most Unnecessary Abbreviations". -----signature----- "Good god, Peng's a mentat!" ~darthramza GDG
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