Author Topic: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Darth_Vaders_cousin 
Registered: Nov '04
7758_Sparky
Date Posted: 3/18 9:18pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Wasn't IBoP a bunch of different threads?

Here's another Idea that just came to me. OK, you have these three worlds, and you have the Nexus. So how about the worlds are already aware of the Nexus and each other, and the Nexus is like an Intra-Deminsional Trading station or something. People can interact, travel, what ever, with in the three worlds through the Nexus.

Or maybe only select people know about the Nexus and can interact with the other worlds...Like the Stargate series. It's set in modern times, but it's a big secret that all this other life exists. Each world has it's group of people that know of the Nexus but the rest of the population is, at the time, oblivious.

But that's just an Idea. I mean I can see where the one world Idea would be beneficial to start, but ultimatly it is going to be the demise of the thread if it grows to a larger capacity.

 

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Kalio_Dynkos 
Registered: May '04
23523_Thrawn
Date Posted: 3/18 10:01pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread - Date Edited: 3/18 10:22pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Kalio_Dynkos
Bravo, Hammurabi. Nice job with the agenda. I'm good with your adjusted agenda.

I think the biggest thing about getting a leadership set up is only so that we have a more cohesive plan here, rather than two or three. It seems to be going well now, though. I think it's just necessary that we go in one direction rather than the two we have thrust together. Conversation is happening.

Besides, I don't think this idea belongs to just any few minds. We've got great conversation happening on what, two boards? I've never been to DreamWrights, but from this thread I think you're dedicated people. Certainly made up with respected RPers from around the RPF. I see this idea as everybody's, we're just all playing around with it, conjecturing, and adjusting.

That said, on the point of #2 - Flagmaster - I'm keen on keeping a conversational leadership here as Darth_Elu and I work to keep things on point. He's created a world and I'd hate to take that from him. On the other hand, I've done the same but not with as much time dedicated as I believe you guys hit up on this off-thread earlier than we did. Our discussion here took off Wednesday on. So, what I'm saying is, I'm fine with conversational leadership as long as we continue melding these ideas together and not going all willy-nilly on two different ideas and just pretending to ourselves that we're talking about the same thing. happy

4. One World Vs. Multiple Worlds

Alright. I'm agreeing that multiple groups on a planet sounds a big ridiculous. The mechanics of why they don't know about the others does sound a bit weird.

However, I'm against multiple worlds because that speaks bad to me for one main reason. The Nexus idea, while great, raises a question: can it be Newbie-Friendly?

As I have said before, when pitching this the first time in the "Transition" thread, this game has to playable and simple enough that the greater amount of people can play this. It's a given that we are going to get newbies - and I use that word affectionately, because we've all been them and some of us might even still be.

The point is, in my opinion, the IBoP made RPers out of a good many people. It taught us how to post IC/OOC, how the colors worked, how to interact, etc. Even if we were in other games before, IBoP was like a crash course, a booster, to another RPing level. I firmly believe that this Flagship must be able to do the same and we're, no doubt, going to get a lot of newbies and we need to want them! It's a flagship game, a game to represent and serve the entire NSWRPF Community.

So, I think we need to be careful to not only create a system that works, but something that -at least in the beginning - is simple enough to attract and grow new players. Too many complex things will, honestly, not kill the game. We'll get experienced RPers that will do great - a good many ,if not all from here.

However, we want this game, I have to believe, to open to newer players.

That and Multiple Worlds/One World - I don't think we want to just accept the easier of the two to do, but what makes sense.

A thought of explanation for one world. Education and location, location, location.

Who says this needs to be on the surface of planet? Call it created planet - just for this purpose. Example, the world is hollow.

A major civilization, likely the most advanced, could be situated inside our rotating globe, either believing their "world" to be the outside and not knowing they are on the inside, or knowing it and believing a war long ago removed all possibility of ever going to the surface. Hence, they've utilized their technology to mine the rocky core and have created their world. I mean, that has the potential to be huge. As to why they haven't found out about the surface dwellers:

First, there is the element of education that can be used for most. Only because I can say with certainty that no one here has ever been in a nebula or flown in space. Yet, because of our Knowledge, our scientifically proven knowledge, we hold certain beliefs true. This data is what others base their questions off from and are constantly trying to disprove the "proven" ideas to understand them better.

How about this Alien race is more involved. Maybe, they're corrupting via a mechnetic field - the technology. Maybe they've created the planet so that the surface will only ever read as wasteland and deadly.

Education, I think is key.

Another destination could be the surface, as it is. Picking a place that would meld well with the genre of choice. And another destination, I dunno - the other side of planet?

But, if you're going with the multiple planets idea, I'm not against it. Transporting between the genres and working out what makes them work and not work would be tricky. That and while I like the Nexus idea, you risk creating a plot device that can be abused. That's probably true of the one planet thing, too.

Cousin, you're right, I think, we do want this to grow. One world might be too small. However, multiple worlds open a mixed bag. Which ever we can make work, I'm for. It's got to work, that's obvious.

That all said, if we're going to utilize multiple planets and need the Nexus, I'm putting my vote firmly against time-travel. I have never seen a time-travel movie, book, game, etc. ever work. If we consider time-travel, who's time? Wouldn't even arriving there affect a timeline? How much of a plot-devise, plot-bunny, or god-mode is it to utilize time to undo your enemies?

Theories regarding time tell us that if a blade of grass is moved, it can alter the future. It's a bad move, I've got to say.

Players can time-hop, change history and then what catalysts are we to expect and how many RPers aren't going to jump around saying, I killed your ancestor so you don't exist? Technically, if I go back in time, and change the past, then I, as I was, no longer exist. That whole future, doesn't exist.

It could get mighty hairy and that's just a few examples. Honestly, I'll go either way with the planets, but dead-set against time-travel. In a story, maybe, but not with 20+ people. Heck, 1 person doing time-travel bothers me enough because temporal mechanics and the physics behind it are so...ridiculous and I fear time-travel is too big for an RP like this. It can get out hand and it can be a bad, bad plot device.

EDIT:
DarthXan318 posted:
That's it, too... I think the factions idea is a bit done to death. Having worlds as opposed to factions is something that (AFAIK) hasn't been done before, or at least not done as much.


Yes! Factions, eh. I mean, we'll have factions persay. Each world is going to have antagonits/protagonists. Genres are going to have what we could call factions. We're not going to have a planet of all good guys and one of all bad guys. The Earth-city, for example. We've discussed mofia, crime-lords, cops, lawyers, cafe owners, etc. Just a working world. Sure, that's a group of factions.

I'd see the Co-Gms running the game and maybe calling on Sub-Gms, within his own thread, to work it out.

That, and I_H has already allowed us three separate threads. We don't have to worry about piling this all into one game-thread. Each planet/civiliization will get their own.

 

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DarthXan318 
Registered: Sep '02
13619_Padme
Date Posted: 3/18 10:13pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread - Date Edited: 3/18 10:15pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthXan318
Oh, this is something that might not have made it off Dreamwrights...

The idea behind the gateways between worlds is that they're just like ... doors ... rips in space/time, whatever ... that you step through and bam, you're in the Nexus. In other words, they're wherever the GM wants them to be and there's no mental gymnastics involved.

It's not like some Sekrit Society controls access through the gates in all the worlds. Or - say it used to be like that, only now something has caused a 'destabilization' and now gates/doors/whatever you want to call them are popping up everywhere. That could be a plot point as well, but the point is, access is easy.

 

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Kalio_Dynkos 
Registered: May '04
23523_Thrawn
Date Posted: 3/18 10:17pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
And we're talking GM controlled doors? Such as the Flag-master tosses open a few doors to...wherever. Those players that find them, enter them end up where the Flag-master (or delegated Co-Gm, Wing-Master) takes them. That'd be interesting, because then we could even explore other things than just the other civilizations without being stupid.

Giving each situation a clue, or nothing at all, would be interesting towards the overall plot.

 

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Darth_Vaders_cousin 
Registered: Nov '04
7758_Sparky
Date Posted: 3/18 10:18pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Now a hollow world...I can make that work for two of the Genres but the third would be more difficult to work in.

For instance, Some sort of technology created forces our tehcnologically advanced ancestors into the earth, where they rebuild and create a whole sub-world. Eventually technology degrades in a fight for survival, and generations later we have our "Steampunk/Etc." world in the depths. Here genetically modified crops are grown with out light (or artificial light sources are created), and the steam creates a cyclic torrent almost daily. Here the creatures of the past roam, many evolving to survive in their new enviroment and others mutating due to the years of inbreeding and technical fall out of the mysterious ancestors. (Vampires, Were-wolves, Etc can be brought in here)

Meanwhile, at the surface a new race of people have developed (through evolution, ancestors who were left behind, etc.) and this can be an what ever stage of technology you would like (Medeival would work for a relativly young race while Modern would work for a race that is developing to the point of the ancestors, but are yet to reach it.) Because the underworlders are in a technoligically stagnant enviroment because of fears of poluting their world etc. the upper world can be what ever you desire.

So that would cover two of the genres but one would still be left out. But it's a good idea none the less.

 

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DarthXan318 
Registered: Sep '02
13619_Padme
Date Posted: 3/18 10:24pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread - Date Edited: 3/18 10:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthXan318
Hm, I think the version we're working from is all gates lead either in or out of the Nexus. But gates leading from world to world could work too..


About newbies, some more Dreamwrights posts that didn't make it across (I think):

(I skipped quoting some short posts and the posts that didn't pertain to being newbie-friendly - they were about the money system.)


xany posted:
Our aim here is to make a flagship RPG, but what makes a flagship different from any other? Probably many things, but I think the main idea is one of accessibility... this should be the kind of game anyone can (and would want to) join, from newbies trying to get in the RPF for the first time to experienced gamers looking for a new sandbox to play in.

By this I mean
(1) the character sheet should be simple enough that a newbie can make one with a minimum of hand-holding
(2) for that matter, GMs should be willing to sit through some newbie mistakes/stupidity/etc and gently correct them when necessary
(3) we should never close the game to new players
(4) players should be able to make as many characters as they want.
(5) cater to different levels of 'hand-holding' - some newbies will need to be led around on a string, but allow the more experienced players to follow their own directions
(6) reward good players with in-game power/toys/etc, to keep them interested

Of course all of this is to a point - if say a newbie is regularly going wildly OOC or godmoding or whatever despite being told, they should naturally be quietly eliminated, and the player that creates a new character and abandons it every week shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Sephy posted:
From the perspective of someone who was not in IBOB, but from someone who's lurked pretty often in the CDG, I think the proposed CS is a little too simple. Here's my favorite CS template, not a ridiculous amount of detail, but also not too simple:

Name:
Age:
Race:
Gender:
Apperance:
Personality:
Abilities: (I'm hesitant to make this an exclusively Fantasy or Supers category by calling it "Powers" or "Magic", but that's essentially what it boils down to)
Equipment:
Bio:

candide posted:
Concerning newbs, I have an idea. What if each genre in the game was loosely (and I mean loosely) built for different level RPers. Like the Earth scenario would be user-friendly, and easy to join up and get in on the action, and the GM would be one who works well with newbs, etc. And then, players can move on to different, more advanced or more involved realms when they feel ready.

I don't mean to impose any strict system here by any means. But if might be cool if there was one or two genera's that weren't too involved, or too challenging, and a couple that were decidedly more involved and more challenging.

Saintheart posted:
Fact is (he said, with an arrogant smirk on his eminently punchable face wink ) you don't design worlds to be easy for players; you design adventures within that world to be easy for players. The new player's first mission should be relatively tightly-controlled, as easy as delivering a package from one place to another. You then move to others until you feel they're strong enough to play in your world by themselves.

Again, whilst not trying to fanwank over IBOP, that was how LSA and most of the GMs seemed to do it, and thereby got a sense of the RPing abilities of his new characters: he'd have "High Command" assign them a mission and see how they went first, and well before he gave them any sort of power in-game. If a player can't even play by the GM's rules for one short mission, it doesn't bode well for their commitment to the RPG overall.

xany posted:
At the risk of waxing IBOP as well (heh), I agree with Saintheart - you can't design an entire world to be 'easy', but you can design easy missions. I mean, say Earth is the newbie zone and the newbie learns the ropes - what then? Does the character move off Earth and never return? Shouldn't be that way..



 

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Kalio_Dynkos 
Registered: May '04
23523_Thrawn
Date Posted: 3/18 10:25pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
How about these gateways, doors, whatever the Nexus does, is accessible from a whole separate place. Say, one "Controlled" by the Alien race. The created world could then be something of a laboratory experiment of a higher race.

Regardless, I could fly with the idea, Cousin, with some fleshing out. Nice.

 

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Ktala 
Registered: Sep '02
6289_A-Wing
Date Posted: 3/18 11:03pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Hello all...

I've been lurking in the back, reading all the interesting ideas for games, and platforms.

I just wanted to mention something.

Someone mentioned, that the reason, that IBoP worked so well, was because of a base that EVERYONE knew well.

While the multi world, and different planet themes are interesting, you are losing the point of having something that folks could relate to.

You want as many folks as possible to join. But you will never get them all..*neither did BoP*, but try for something that many could get into.

Two tiny ideas, off the top of my head at the moment were:

Something like a Mad Max type world. A decimated world, and you have different groups of folks wandering about..some with more technology than others...each has their own ideas and power base. Many folks are familiar with that base.

OR

Perhaps..Like the game, the Brearu....which is kinda like Men in Black. It is set in the present time, with agents on the hunt for not only aliens, but things supernatural as well, like vampires, mages, and orcs, and ghosts.

But the agents are also things like Magic users, weapons techs, psychics, and other folks trained to handle the hords of aliens and monsters that they KNOW exists..and they have to do it, without letting the populace know.


*just some ideas*

Your getting too wrapped up on the WHERE. Figure out WHAT you want, and then you can decided on the background for it to take place.

just an idea.... grin

 

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Yuul_Shamar 
Registered: Nov '04
40710_Jacen Solo
Date Posted: 3/18 11:29pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
I still see nothing wrong with the one world idea, who says it has to be earth sized? it would be easy to make it bigger. Regardless I'm just one voice and have been here less then a year(on the RP boards anyway)

Anyway may i ask what Dreamwrights is?

 

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Saintheart 
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered: Dec '00
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Date Posted: 3/18 11:33pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Dreamwrights was an off-site board that Darth_Elu was using as a discussion forum for this topic, completely independent of Kalio_Dynkos. But seeing as the discussion's back here I imagine everybody has come back with it. happy

 

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darth_nemisis 
Registered: May '04
23731_Palpatine
Date Posted: 3/19 10:40am Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread - Date Edited: 3/19 11:08am (1 edits total) Edited By: darth_nemisis
ktala posted:
Perhaps..Like the game, the Brearu....which is kinda like Men in Black. It is set in the present time, with agents on the hunt for not only aliens, but things supernatural as well, like vampires, mages, and orcs, and ghosts.

You know, I kind of like this idea. It will provide a good backstory for the game.

 

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Hammurabi 
Registered: Jan '07
44291_Han Solo
Date Posted: 3/19 4:28pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
I've gone and compiled a list of the various arguments I've seen in the single-world vs multi-world debate. I may have missed something, but here's what I've seen:

Pro-Single
A. Multiple worlds involves clunky game mechanics and sketchy plotting, whereas a single world is more organic
B. Multiple worlds divides gameplay too much and limits interaction
C. Multiple worlds is tacky and cliche
D. Multiple worlds overcomplicates things

Pro-Multi
A. We can't combine a wide variety of genres in a single world
B. It's new and interesting
C. Single world limits size/growth

There have also been responses to these arguments. I haven't really seen/though of any responses to A, C, and D of the pro-single side (though if someone has any, speak up). However, the response to B has generally been that we can make interworld travel easier. Which is a reasonable viewpoint.

However, I do have responses to the pro-multi-world arguments. Option C is the simplest to counter. You see, a lot of people here are speaking as though a planet is small. I would argue the opposite: a planet is really very big, and allows plenty of room for expansion. In our multi-world solution, we'd have so much geography we'd have to limit our scope to small portions of each individual world. And the same applies to a single-world situation, but to a lesser extent. In any case, a single-world situation would certainly still have room to grow - with the option of introducing new geographic/cultural areas. For instance, if we set this in Britain, we could decide to include parts of continental Europe. Or the Americas. Or Asia. Or wherever. The fact is, it's not like we're ever going to fill up a planet.

However, if we go single-world, we can't take a modern setting and add in a fantasy setting. Which is essentially argument A: single-world allows for less variety. Some posters have just assumed this would mean we'd end up with an unworkable world that tries to combine modern settings, fantasy settings, and steampunk settings on a single planet. Quite frankly, that's absolutely not what we'd do. We'd simply opt to remove some of the settings entirely, and then setup an organic world out of the elements that do blend well.

Argument B is the one that really bothers me, because I disagree with it entirely. Some posters keep talking about our multiple-worlds thing like it's fresh and new. At least one has gone so far as to say they're tired of the same old factionalism, suggesting that multiple worlds is more dynamic and interesting. At the same time, I thought LightWarden made it pretty damn clear: multiple-worlds is gimmicky and overdone. What kills me is that it then becomes an attack on factionalism as being 'overdone'. If factionalism is overdone, it's because it works. Not only that, but it frequently results in compelling gameplay. It sets us up for conflict not just between players and their environment, but also between players. And if we have more than two factions, it allows for all sorts of delicious possibilities, including interfaction diplomacy and ambiguous conflicts in which there's no side on the moral high (or low) ground. Factionalism is also realistic - unlike multiple-worlds, factionalism is prevalent in the world we live in. It makes sense. It happens.

 

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SephyCloneNo15 
Registered: Apr '05
8068_R5-D4
Date Posted: 3/19 5:06pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
Well, I think we've established that on a SW board, one franchise/genre will never achieve anything near the popularity of SW, which is part of my understanding of why IBOP worked. One world definitely limits the scope of the game because in very short order, without some bizarre contrived Game mechanic to prevent it, whichever race could first would be all over the planet, either conquering it or stripping everything of value from the parts they don't like.

If we go multi-world, limiting the scope of the worlds is an obvious necessity, but I don't think it's a great challenge. When you have several worlds to choose from, is it really that much of a problem to be constricted to an England-sized island on one of the three or more worlds? It's not nearly the issue you seem to be making it out to be. I could happily and easily write up three genre-specific posts like I did with the Oceania post, limiting the play area without limiting the potential. Not a very daunting task at all.

 

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Hammurabi 
Registered: Jan '07
44291_Han Solo
Date Posted: 3/19 5:19pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread
SephyCloneNo15 posted:
One world definitely limits the scope of the game because in very short order, without some bizarre contrived Game mechanic to prevent it, whichever race could first would be all over the planet, either conquering it or stripping everything of value from the parts they don't like.

I'm not sure if I understand your logic. Why would that happen? I mean, we certainly see factional threads all the time, and rarely does one side totally dominate. And speaking of "bizarre contrived game mechanics", what do you suppose the Nexus is?

SephyCloneNo15 posted:
If we go multi-world, limiting the scope of the worlds is an obvious necessity, but I don't think it's a great challenge. When you have several worlds to choose from, is it really that much of a problem to be constricted to an England-sized island on one of the three or more worlds? It's not nearly the issue you seem to be making it out to be. I could happily and easily write up three genre-specific posts like I did with the Oceania post, limiting the play area without limiting the potential. Not a very daunting task at all.

I'm not really trying to make a geographic argument with you there. My point wasn't that it'd be problematic to limit the multiple-worlds; my point was that we've got a whole planet even in a single world, so space really isn't an issue.

My broader point on this issue is that the more worlds we divide this into, the more we have to dumb down our individual worlds. If we focus on one world, we can have a much deeper world.

 

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Saintheart 
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered: Dec '00
14385_Drizzt<br>by RA Salvatore  (A&A)
Date Posted: 3/19 5:23pm Subject: RE: The Think-Tank: NSWRPF Flagship Planning and Discussion Thread - Date Edited: 3/19 6:26pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Saintheart
I must admit it is probably easier to create one world with multiple factions than it is create a number of worlds with maybe one faction per world.

Perhaps the solution in throwing as many genres as possible into the world is by exploring the outer limits of those genres.

I'm attracted to steampunk as the "gold standard" of civilisation on such a notional planet, mostly because the technology level, whilst not modern, is low enough to shoehorn other stuff into it -- even a touch of magick and/or fantasy. And it's here that I'm going to try and make a historical allegory.

The British Empire, from somewhere around the end of Napoleon's time, was one of the (if not The) dominant colonial and technological power of the time. Its navies were the strongest, so it controlled the seas and thereby communications. But the Empire of the 1800s -- which I interpret as the notional "steampunk" period, referring to things like the LXG comic -- was not by any means the only civilisation or form of nation on the planet. Indeed its technological advantage was the reason it was a colonial power. There were nations like India, tribal groups like the Zulus, and even the native Americans who all existed at the same time as the English. They didn't all have the same level of technology, but their societies existed all the same. And 1800-ish England is also the time of Dracula, off in the mysterious Carpathian Mountains, which are in Europe, but no less remote and mysterious.

What I'm driving at is that with steampunk as the most advanced civilisation of the time, it leaves you with lots of space at the margins for other genres. Gothic horror in the mould of Frankenstein and Dracula? Check; it's there in the shadows of the gaslight. Western/cowboys? Check; over on the frontiers of the notional Empire. Fantasy?

I say yes, on the frontiers or even on the other side of the planet. For a world like this where transport is still seriously limited in its speed the other side of the planet might as well be the other side of the galaxy. The whole point of the "age of exploration" like this is the undiscovered country. Hell, magic could even be worked into the steampunk world as a "The Prestige" kind of way -- the suggestion that there is real magic hiding there, that it isn't just sleight-of-hand. (Although I personally classify "The Prestige" as a horror movie in the vein of H.P. Lovecraft, but I digress.)

You could easily have in that context whole cultures going up against one another, in the manner of the conquest of the Wild West. Gunpowder versus sorcery? Vampires versus the Holy Church? Bring it, I say. happy

And as a last thought: if that world really isn't big enough to contain your characters and adventures, you still have the option of a "gateway to the Nexus" to put in at some later stage, and thus bring on other genres there.

EDIT: The key being, of course, that one designs it organically to have all these different cultures on the one planet.

 

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Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife.
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Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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