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Topic:
A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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Saintheart
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/4 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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Imperial_Hammer posted:
You know, I've never seen Nazi parallels in ANH. I've always thought of the Empire equating to Imperial British (a la Revolutionary War).
It's the length of the coats that hides it. If Admiral Piett had an overcoat that was about a foot longer (see "Starship Troopers" for comparisons) it'd be more obvious. As it is, the Nazis did have sturmtruppen, and the solid grey uniforms throughout do heavily echo the Nazi military era and uniforms.
Although that's an interesting parallel to pursue as well, especially given the fact ANH was pitched at a US market. I wonder sometimes if different audiences did take different interpretations from the same material -- Americans took the "independence" thing because of their background, while Europe and the rest of the world saw the Nazi element because they'd confronted the Nazi menace on their home ground, so to speak.
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/4 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/4 7:37pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Hammurabi
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The most fascinating Nazi parallel in ANH is the final scene, which perfectly mirrors a scene from Triumph of the Will:
And mind you, those are the Rebels. Puzzling.
Anyways, ANH presents some Nazi-esque qualities to the Empire. We've got stormtroopers, as well as the officer uniforms which bear a certain resemblance to Nazi stuff. And of course, ANH makes it quite clear that the Empire is bad: Darth Vader choking people, Grand Moff Tarkin blowing up planets... They're set up as a force of evil in the world, in stark opposition to guys like Luke and Obi-Wan. If we can, that's a notion I might like to distance this universe from, if only a little; I'm not really a fan of absolutist good-vs-evil stuff, and I think it'd be more interesting to emphasize the side of the Empire that doesn't choke people just because they feel like it. The elimination of Vader helps us here - the rest of the Empire is far more pragmatic, though Tarkin is truly a wicked man. The Empire I'm imagining is led mostly by social and military elites. The top of society. They generally won't be outright evil, but most of 'em will probably be somewhat lacking in terms of compassion.
For the most part, the Empire doesn't resemble Nazi Germany. But then again, ANH doesn't give us a picture of the galaxy's heartland - we see the outer edges. What this means is that we're fairly free to paint the core of the Empire as we please. The details we see in ANH are pretty vague - all we really know is that the Empire is big and bad, but has a limited influence in the outer reaches of the galaxy. That could describe just about any empire in world history, and I think the generic-ness is somewhat intended. However, I might lean slightly toward them being British-based - the Empire just strikes me as a naval superpower. In that sense, they also resemble America, as well as some of the other European nations (namely France and Spain).
EDIT: Saint got to some of my points first. In other news, expect an update tomorrow probably regarding the game's structure. Though it might come later. Depends.
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SephyCloneNo15
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/5 8:11am
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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Good points all around, especially on the Empire not all being kitten-kicking, moustache-twirling Snidely Whiplashes. We really only see Vader, the evil sorcerer-type character and Tarkin, the scheming politician character, as truly at that Snidely Whiplash degree of evil. Motti (or is it Tagge? I can never keep them straight) gives us a very strong military impression when he points out that no naval force could hope to take on the Death Star. I bet most of them wouldn't even think twice if they didn't have a superlaser at all, and just had to orbit with the Death Star giddily blowing up Rebel fleets with unstoppable barrages of turbolaser fire.
Only Tarkin seems to really be all that big on the planet-exploding side of things. Vader's really evil in other ways, and everyone else is just in that Imperial Military mindset of wanting to win the war and settle back on their massive Core-world estates.
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/5 9:10am
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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I would like to correct someone about "stormtroopers". Stormtroopers existed BEFORE the Nazis. Stormtroopers are German shock troops and they existed as far back as WWI. Nazi Stormtroopers are street bullies.
The only resemblance to Nazi Germany with the Galactic Empire is the uniform. Thats it. There is nothing else that can be compared to the Nazis. And no the slaughtering of the Jedi doesn't count. That can be applied to any nation with a history of genocide (America included).
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/5 12:46pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
I would like to correct someone about "stormtroopers". Stormtroopers existed BEFORE the Nazis. Stormtroopers are German shock troops and they existed as far back as WWI. Nazi Stormtroopers are street bullies.
Yes, but it is conceivable that Lucas equated them with Nazi stormtroopers. In any case, you're largely right: the Empire really doesn't resemble the Nazis, though if you squint hard enough there are some similarities.
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/5 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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Hammurabi posted:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
I would like to correct someone about "stormtroopers". Stormtroopers existed BEFORE the Nazis. Stormtroopers are German shock troops and they existed as far back as WWI. Nazi Stormtroopers are street bullies.
Yes, but it is conceivable that Lucas equated them with Nazi stormtroopers.
Actually no it's not conceivable at all. Imperial Stormtroopers are not street bullies. You dont see them in the movies going around randomly beating people up because their political perspective is not in line with doctrine. In the movies Stormtroopers are displayed as shock troopers, elite soldiers, loyal to their monarch. Palpatine even says they are elite and loyal.
German stormtroopers are shock troopers that are elite soldiers loyal to their monarch.
COMPNOR thugs are the Imperial version of Nazi Stormtroopers and COMPNOR is a West End Games creation who diligently tried to make the Galactic Empire out to be like Nazi Germany.
George Lucas did not envision the Empire to be anything like Nazi Germany. He borrowed the Werhmacht Heer (Army) Officer's uniform because it looked "sharp". If anything, the Galactic Empire is closely related to the Roman Empire.
Hammurabi posted:
In any case, you're largely right: the Empire really doesn't resemble the Nazis, though if you squint hard enough there are some similarities.
Those similarities you speak of can also be compared to Rome, Russia, Japan, China, America, Britain or any other nation with a history of war and inhumane treatment of civilians and prisoners. Nazi Germany stands out the most in our minds because we're ingrained to believe that Nazi Germany is the most horrible and evil regime to have ever existed and if you know your history you'll disagree.
But anyway, we're not here to discuss Nazism and the Galactic Empire are we? I just wanted to point out that the Imperial and Nazi Stormtroopers are not one and the same except in name.
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Penguinator-176
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/5 9:17pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
The only resemblance to Nazi Germany with the Galactic Empire is the uniform. Thats it. There is nothing else that can be compared to the Nazis. And no the slaughtering of the Jedi doesn't count. That can be applied to any nation with a history of genocide (America included).
Nothing else?
Luke was a little short for a stormtrooper.
They're all human, all Caucasian, all male, all generally the same height (at least a bit taller than Luke), they blew up an entire planet...I'd say those are all parallels.
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/5 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/5 10:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
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Penguinator-176 posted:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
The only resemblance to Nazi Germany with the Galactic Empire is the uniform. Thats it. There is nothing else that can be compared to the Nazis. And no the slaughtering of the Jedi doesn't count. That can be applied to any nation with a history of genocide (America included).
Nothing else?
Luke was a little short for a stormtrooper.
They're all human, all Caucasian, all male, all generally the same height (at least a bit taller than Luke), they blew up an entire planet...I'd say those are all parallels.
One word: Clones
Clones tend to be the same height, gender and race. You can't fault them for that. Once the parameters have been set for the armor, its costly to change it so someone of Luke's height can effectively wear it. Cheaper to just recruit into the Corps men who are the same height. Also you know those black uniformed officers in ROTJ (no not the guys with the black samurai-like helms)? They are Stormtrooper officers. The two we saw were taller or shorter than stormtroopers. So the Stormtrooper Corps seems to have men who are either taller or shorter than Stormtroopers. Funny no?
Secondly, the Nazi Regime never came close to wiping out an entire civilization despite their attempt to do so with the Jews. If you want regimes that have wiped out civilizations or brought them down to a number where they can't recover from, then why don't you look up the United States Calvary or the Conquistadors, especially the Conquistadors.
Third, the Waffen-SS, Luftwaffe, Heer, Kreigsmarine, Gestapo and the Schutzstaffel were not all the same height nor were they exclusively restricted to men or Germans. kthxgbye.
And I believe this thread has gotten off topic long enough. If anyone else wishes to debate with me on this subject feel free to PM and I'll gladly take it there.
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Saintheart
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 12:21am
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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Well said, Mitth. 
Getting back to the topic at hand, some of the dialogue from ANH is handy for giving us some insights as to the nature of the galaxy at hand:
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy, or random, as a blaster - an elegant weapon, from [for?] a more civilised age. For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the Dark Times. Before the Empire." (Emphasis added).
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "A young Jedi named Darth Vader -- who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil -- helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father. Now the Jedi are all but extinct."
Luke: "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it, but there's nothing I can do about it right now! Besides, it's all such a long way from here." (Emphasis added).
Luke: "You fought in the Clone Wars?"
Obi-Wan: "Yes. I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father."
Tagge (I think): "Until this battle station is fully operational we are vulnerable. The Rebel Alliance is too well-equipped; they're more dangerous than you realise."
Motti (I think): "Dangerous to your star fleet, commander - not to this battle station."
Tagge: "The Rebellion will continue to gain support in the Imperial Senate until--"
Tarkin: "The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us" (etc.)
Luke: "You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
Han: "Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other; I've seen a lot of strange stuff. But I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one, all-powerful force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
(As an aside, reading those lines on the page makes me realise how much of a film rests on the delivery of the actors. And Harrison Ford in particular. Truly, ANH rests on his and Alec Guinness's performances.)
The reason I include the highlighted bits is because they seem to suggest the Empire as a whole is either complicit in or devoted to evil. And yes, Obi-Wan does have the habit of talking about things from a certain point of view - except that Luke seems to have a similar opinion of the Empire despite having little to no contact with Ben, which suggests it's a fairly widespread point of view. Unless you're prepared to take a "Luke and Ben are in the minority" argument, I don't think you can get away from the Empire as an oppressive, if not totalitarian, regime. I would also have posited that the way the "Mofference" is filmed and acted also supports that point of view.
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Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 10:32am
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/6 10:44am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
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Obi-wan... he's a Jedi Knight who had his fellows hunted down and killed by his pupil and the Empire. He's going to have negative opinions about the Empire. Obi-wan does not give a reason why the Empire or his pupil killed the Jedi, just that they did. So Obi-wan's opinion is biased and cannot be viewed as truth like an outsider's opinion could.
Luke... he lives on the Outer Rim on a world harboring a criminal warlord with no Imperial presence before ANH. So he has good reason to hate the Empire, that does not mean the Empire is evil. It just means the Empire's influence either a) doesn't reach Tatooine (which it probably doesnt since the OR didnt reach it in PT) or b) Tatooine is too insignificant of a world to even bother with. Again like before Luke doesn't give his reasons why he hates the Empire. He just says he does but if you look at his surroundings you can see why he would.
As for the Mofference on the DS, I never saw them (except Vader and Tarkin) as evil. I saw the officers as arrogant military officers with a new toy. Just like all Generals and Admirals tend to act like when they get a nice big boom stick to play with.
On the Outer Rim where the Empire's influence is very little and the worlds and the people can do whatever they want, I can imagine the locals would hate the Empire if a criminal warlord was in control or ran free all over the place. And when the Empire exerted its influence in the Outer Rim I can imagine those people who were use to not having that presence are going to feel violated, oppressed, offended. Just like with any government that doesn't pay attention to its people for a long time and then suddenly does is going to be hated by some or loved by others.
So out in the Outer Rim thats your mindset based on what we see with Tatooine in ANH. That is, however, not what the mindset is going to be for the galaxy as a whole. So yes, its a minorities point of view for now.
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/6 5:23pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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I really need to rewatch ANH. As soon as I get the chance.
Anyways, I would hesitate to say that the Empire is evil, though they certainly aren't a force for good. What we see in ANH is the Empire from the perspective of two entities: the Outer Rim and the Jedi. The Jedi resent the Empire for obvious reasons: the Empire was responsible for purge, which killed many Jedi and forced most of the rest into exile and/or hiding.
The Outer Rim is something we haven't discussed yet, and its relationship with the Empire seems to resemble a frontier/colony type arrangement, though that probably even overstates the Empire's presence in the rim worlds. As Mitth pointed out, the Empire is foreign to Tatooine. If they have a presence there, it's a minor garrison with little real power. And I don't even know if they have that, or if the Empire only dropped by in search of the droids. However, the Empire does exert some influence over the Rim, and, as Mitth pointed out, a lot of people don't like it. And I imagine these people have reasons - it's not hard to envision them as a typical colonialist nation. I mean, Spain, Britain, and even the United States are all guilty of genocide of Native American peoples, enslavement of countless Africans, and the economic and political subjugation of countries on nearly every continent. And of course, the colonies feel like they've been raped and brutally murdered, which (in many cases) isn't all that unfair.
But colonialism isn't the defining aspect of either of those three empires, and each has been responsible for quite a bit of good in the world (modern democracy, anyone?  ). Though the people in each homeland have benefited from the empire, only a small subset of the population was ever involved in colonial atrocities. And in many cases, these empires actually had pretty nice domestic policies. I imagine the Empire starts to look quite a bit nicer the closer you get to the core. Of course, that's not to say that they ever get too nice. But I imagine they certainly look a little bit more human. Out in the Rim, though, the Empire can be pretty awful. Aside from Vader indiscriminately choking people and Tarkin blowing up a planet (which yeah, was a definite misdeed), we also see (though never directly) Imperials lower down on the chain acting pretty ruthless in pursuit of goals. Look at the hunt for R2 and C-3PO: the guys in charge of that one pretty much went through and killed everybody in their path. Then again, it's not hard to find this sort of thing in modern empires - just look at Abu Ghraib.
That said, Lucas did make a point to depict the Empire as evil. ANH is (more than any of the other films) a very well-defined struggle of good versus evil. Luke, Obi-Wan, and the Rebellion are our heroes; Vader and Tarkin are our villains. There's plenty of room in the middle. The obvious example is Han, though it isn't hard to extend some humanity to the Empire. I need to rewatch the mofference, but really the only two figures who seem totally inhuman are Vader and Tarkin.
Another issue which we really haven't dealt with yet is the Jedi Purge and its moral implications. And this brings us towards an examination of the Empire as a modernizing force. The galaxy is in a state of transition - the decline of the Jedi is evidence of that. The Empire then, is (in a sense) a force of modernization, centralizing power and ushering out old ways (Jedi). Again with the parallels, but it's akin to Soviet modernization under Stalin, or the Meiji Restoration in Japan (which, mind you, forced the good 'ole yamabushi into hiding). And although some parties will resist change and some will be destroyed by change, the galaxy as a whole might benefit.
So I guess my perspective is as follows: the Empire is a force of order in the universe, which is good in some ways and bad in others. And there are some very bad people on the side of order (guys like Tarkin), but there's also plenty of bad people who are more on the chaotic end of the spectrum (guys like Jabba and Greedo).
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NickLitYouAFlame
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
5/6 7:19pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/6 7:20pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
NickLitYouAFlame
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The Empire's plan was to create Galactic peace, was it not? They just got pulled off that path by Sidious and Tarkin and such. Forgive me if I just restated what you guys have been iterating, because I haven't been paying much attention.
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/7 3:20pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
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If that was their intent, it really isn't what we see in the OT. Though you can argue that taking over the galaxy is a method of bring about peace - I think it's fair to say they're making the galaxy more stable.
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
5/7 5:00pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/7 5:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
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You really don't see anything in the OT except battles on the frontier against a rebellion. The movies are really a "he said she said". So who's opinion should you trust to discern the political view of an entire galaxy? Lucas? He's an outsider telling a story from Artoo's point of view who saw things from one side.
Btw which version of the OT are we examining? The original or the digitally remastered?
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/7 5:10pm
Subject:
RE: A New Old Star Wars Galaxy
- Date Edited:
5/7 5:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Hammurabi
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I feel like we should examine both, giving more credence to the original cut. The way I see it, the order of importance (for us, at least) should be as follows:
1.) A New Hope (original version)
2.) the original trilogy (original version)
3.) the remastered trilogy
4.) the prequel trilogy
5.) the EU
ANH should be the source of most of our material. Though I think we can still look at ESB and RotJ a little bit, there are elements from those films which I would like to cut. And I think we should largely ignore the prequel trilogy and the EU.
Anyways, with regards to the Empire: ANH provides us a pretty decent view of what the Empire looked like from the galactic frontier. However, I think we've got plenty of freedom to determine how the Empire functions in the inner portions of the galaxy.
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