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Author	Topic: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
Ktala Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 5/22 7:28am Subject: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/22 8:34am (2 edits total) Edited By: Ktala
	The Not So Black And White Of Force Users. "Luke, you are going to find that truth depends greatly on your own point of view..." Master Obi Wan Kenobi. So begins this article. I have noticed a great trend, and arguments lately in the different Force using groups, as to the different force users, and their points of view. To help explain some of this, I have collected many texts, and thoughts on a few of the various groups. Some of it is very cannon. Some is not. But I believe it will help those seeking to finding out more about the many different force users, and perhaps even doing their own investigations. Let us start at the beginning. Originally formed as a philosophical study group situated on the planet Tython, the dawn world of the Jedi. The Galaxy's best philosophers, priests, scientists, and warriors came together here long ago to discuss their discoveries involving the enigmatic and mystical Ashla. The light side of the Force, also commonly known as the Ashla or simply the Force, was the side of the Force aligned with honesty, compassion, mercy, self-sacrifice, and other positive emotions. For the most part, the Jedi simply referred to this as the Force. The dark side of the Force, called Bogan by the ancient forerunners of the Jedi, would become the primary tool of the Sith Lords, and was the more destructive side of the Force. Unlike the light side of the Force, dark force users draw power from raw emotions, both negative and positive; the power coming from strength or severity. Where the light side was associated with creation and life, the dark side was associated with death and destruction. A Force-user who followed the dark side was known as a darksider. The Jedi had the ability to sense the Living Force inside of life forms. Sick or dying organisms had little Living Force, while healthy ones possessed a certain level, that some said corresponding to their midi-chlorian count. The connection to the Living Force apparently also allowed Jedi Masters to retain their identity when they became one with the Force. Proponents of the Living Force view, such as Qui-Gon Jinn, espoused a philosophy of "living in the moment," relied heavily on their instincts and concentrated more on sensitivity to living things, rather than fulfilling destiny, which was one of the main tenets of the Unifying Force philosophy Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) claimed that there was only one Force: the only difference worthy of note was that the Sith saw the Force as a means to an end while the Jedi saw it as an end in itself. This view was echoed by what Vergere taught Jacen Solo; she told him that there was no light side or dark side of the Force — only the Unifying Force. Vergere also told Solo that "the Force was everything, and everything was the Force"; that the Force did not have sides and never took sides. Many Jedi were thought to be proponents of the Unifying Force, wherein they focused on the flow of time as a whole, ignoring primary use of the Living Force. Visions of the future were of particular significance to most Jedi. Yoda was one of the most adamant proponents of the Unifying Force. A proactive group left Tython to liberate other worlds.They founded a philosophical school on Ossus, defining the light side and dark side of the Force (equivalent, respectively, to the ancient Ashla and Bogan) as well as the Living Force and Unifying Force. So even at its very beginnings, there was separation. What followed next was bound to happen. In the event historians now know as the First Great Schism, dissidents who used the Bogan eventually arose, sparking the Force Wars of Tython. They discovered and used its powers to dominate and enslave the entire galaxy, changing environments as they saw fit. Eventually, around 25,200 BBY, this empire collapsed. It has been claimed that this collapse was a direct result of their use of the dark side. After this, the Jedi came into being, to make sure that such things would never happen again. So now we have the two opposite sides of the Force. The Light - The Jedi. The Dark - The Sith. But things are not so black and white. Living beings do not neatly fall into only two categories. And so, years later, with other force users, coming into their own, we have many. But I am only going to discuss three groups from what some folks would call the middle of the pack. The Grey Jedi The Shadow Jedi The Jensaarai And another group, I shall mention, because this groups helped sprout many of the same viewpoint: The Potentium ***************************************************** But to discuss these groups, you must first go back, and look at the views, of the group, that these groups sprang from. The Jedi The Nature of the Jedi: The light side of the Force was concerned with the ideals of good, benevolence, and healing. Followers of the light side strove to live in harmony with the world around them, acting out of wisdom and logic rather than anger and hasty judgment. In order to achieve harmony with the light side of the Force, its practitioners would often meditate to clear themselves of emotion; particularly negative emotions such as aggression, anger, and hatred, since these were thought to bring on acceptance of the dark side. They strove to maintain peace and justice throughout the galaxy. The Jedi and many others, referred to two sides of the Force, a dark side and a light side. The dark side was not made up of specific "parts" or "abilities" of the Force: the dark and light sides of the Force existed inside of the life form which used it, made from their emotions. A follower of the light side tried to live in harmony with those around him. Mutual trust, respect, and the ability to form alliances gave the Jedi their distinct advantage over the Sith. In contrast, a follower of the dark side was only interested in him- or herself. To strike down a living creature with the Force out of anger, fear or another emotion was of the dark side. To refrain and clear one's self of these emotions was of the light side. Use of the dark side of the Force was forbidden within the Jedi Order, and was strictly considered the domain of the Sith. Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force "in balance". They attempted to achieve this by destroying the Sith and denying the dark side—essentially "keeping balance" by restoring the Force to its natural state, as they viewed the dark side as "corruption". This involved the purging of negative emotions such as aggression, anger, and hatred, since they could easily bring on acceptance of the dark side. In contrast, positive emotions such as compassion and courage nurtured the light side of the Force. The Jedi Code compared such feelings and provided insight into the ethical use of the Force. The Jedi are servants of life. They help others, even if they have to put themselves out. They train diligently and seek self-mastery in order to decrease their weaknesses and limitations and increase their effectiveness in service. They prefer to help others in anyway they can. ------------------------ There was a reason the Jedi spoke of a Dark side, and did their best to stear students clear from it. It was a way of control. In their hayday, having 10,000 plus Jedi around, it would be impossible to maintain order, if each Jedi was allowed to study what they wanted, prowling thru the Sith archives, to discover some new techniques. So it was banned. The Dark side was evil, and end of discussion. Only certain Master was allowed to explore such possibilities, because at that time, the council felt that only a Master could keep from falling over to the Darkness, with all his years of training. It was the easiest way to keeping most of its members safe. So, the dark side of the Force was considered by the Jedi to be the element aligned with fear, hatred, aggression, and malice towards all living things. Something to be avoided. Those who did not agree with this view, were expelled. Enter, The Sith. The Sith saw themselves as seekers, challengers of old and stagnant ways, in touch with the laws of nature and the universe. They saw the Jedi as denying their natures and afraid of the truth around them. Yuthura Ban gave examples of the tuk'ata and sarkath hunting prey, feeding on weaker creatures. Passions were what kept all creatures - from the most rudimentary to the most evolved sentient - alive. Yuthura Ban explained this to the amnesiac Revan, "To think us creatures beyond the need of simple passions is a delusion." They believed that mastery of their passions gave them strength the Jedi lacked. Such emotions seemed to increase the strength and abilities of a user of the dark side, providing a path towards personal power and the destruction or control of all opposition. However, it was thought that use of the dark side of the Force was extremely addictive. So while the Jedi ran from it, the Sith were drawn to it. The Sith use what they know for personal gain and power. They help others, if they deem it worth their time. They have few restrictions on course, and look to further themselves, only to benefit themselves. They use their power to dominate, control and fulfill their own desires rather than to serve. Some are violent, but most are devious in the pursuit of these goals, at least until they have made enough progress to put down most, if not all opposition. -------------------------------------------- In the end, the Sith and the Jedi were sadly more alike than either side would admit. Like the Jedi, the Sith considered attachments a hindrance. Yuthura Ban pointed out to Revan that "Love is more dangerous than all those things. Love leads to anger and hatred more often that not... but it also leads to mercy, which is far worse." Millennia later, Lumiya told Jacen Solo that in order to achieve enough power to end galactic chaos, he would have to "kill what he loved" - his family. So now you have the main divisions. The Black and the White, if you will. But there were still others, who did not follow either path. "Not everything is so black and white. It's all a matter of perspective." The Potentium. Counter to millennia of Jedi teachings, the followers of Potentium claimed that there was no inherent evil in viewing the Force. They claimed that what others called the light side was actually just the Force itself, which is inherently good. This was backed up by the fact that Ashla, the ancient name of the Force, came later to describe the Light Side. What others therefore called the dark side was a perversion of the Force, twisted by those who used it. Believers of Potentium said that the potential for light and dark sides resided in the user, not the Force itself. They also thought that the Jedi Masters refused to believe in the Potentium view because it would mean the Jedi weren't needed to fight evil, for evil would not exist. And since there was no dark side, there were no dark side actions or Force techniques; in effect any action, good or evil, could be performed without risk as long as the intent wasn't evil. Some Jedi have theorized that the Potentium may have originated as a Sith scheme to subvert Jedi teachings. About a century before the Battle of Naboo, the followers of Potentium were expelled from the Jedi Order, parallel to the Jedi Order's treatment of Gray Jedi as "misguided." Yoda and the rest of the Jedi Council didn't consider them Dark Jedi, but they said it was the duty of the Jedi to use the Force to protect others, not study its absolute limits. The Council said that testing the Force to its limits would lead to the dark side. Next up, the Grey Jedi. They are some of the most mis-understood Jedi around. * "T'is a shame that this Grey Jedi idea has become so popular, it's perverted everything the original trilogy stood for in terms of the Force." * "Even Mace Windu (and perhaps many of his people as well by default)could have been argued to have been a gray by nature with his creation of Vapaad, jaunts into the dark side, and decision to kill Sidious though he was apparently bested in lightsaber duel."the question of justice still arises with this though: Is it evil to strike down an apparantly greater evil in ways that are against your adopted moral codes? When do those codes themselves become evil amid questionable circumstances?" * "In KoTOR 2, "Gray Jedi" are seen as, although having completed the teachings of the Jedi, operate independently and outside of the Jedi Council. They are typically seen as misguided, though they have not necessarily succumbed to the dark side"." These are some of the MANY thoughts players have about Grey Jedi. Many GM's dont like players who play this character class, because most folks try to play them as characters, who almost NEVER act like they have had ANY Jedi teaching, and just simply use the class to get to use darkside powers. That is NOT what the Grey Jedi is about. The term itself seems to date back as far as the Old Sith Wars. Certainly, during this time period, Gray Jedi themselves seem to have been around. In the following millennia, the term continued to increase in usage, most likely due to the increasing trend towards centralization of power in the Order, and the increased prominence of the Jedi Council itself. By 130 ABY the term Gray Jedi was used to refer to those Force-sensitive individuals and groups that, while not following the Dark Side, were not part of the New Jedi Order and/or served other institutions above the will of the Force. Most Gray Jedi had a tense relationship with the Council; while, for most intents and purposes, they were loyal members of the Jedi Order, their maverick natures often put them into conflict with it, especially against more conservative members of the Council. It is perhaps this friction, combined with their unorthodox behavior that made it rare for a Gray Jedi to join the Council themselves or ascend to any position of real leadership in the order. After all, the High Council chose its own members, and most of the time their preference was for orthodox Jedi, such as the group described as the Old Guard. Qui-Gon Jinn's candidacy was rejected in favor of Plo Koon, and then Ki-Adi-Mundi, both of whom were more in line with the Council's way of thinking. The Gray Force was a powerful side of the Force discovered by Deji Skywalker. It was a powerful combination of the Living, Unified, Light and Dark sides of the Force. Following his death, the powers of the Gray Force were mostly used by, of course, Gray Jedi, but in reality, The Gray Force enabled who ever was skilled enough to control it, to utilize light and dark moves without being overwhelmed by anger, greed or other negative emotions. It kept the user at a neutral point in the Force. Neither light or dark, almost rooted to the true nature of the Force itself. Another person put it very simply: "One who uses both the Light Side and Dark Side techniques and methods. Their methods consist of whatever will get the job done. They do not seek to restrict themselves. Balance is only a factor in personal relations, making sure they do not fall one way or another. They still help others, but have few restrictions in just how to help. " The Grey believe in doing whatever necessary to get the best results. They study both in "Light Side" and "Dark Side" techniques and methods. Using whatever method they feel best fits the situation. In the past, there was group within the Jedi Order that held a special calling. Their primary objectives were to uncover hidden and obscure threats to the galaxy, such as powerful criminal syndicates, murder, corruption and conspiracy against the Republic. They also investigated threats involving he darkside, and crimes against the Jedi. The usually worked in secrecy, often alone, and undercover, infiltrating organizations, and would not hesitate to use guile, deception or even brute force in addition to detective skills to achieve his or her goal. Now remembering that the Jedi held many strict tenets, and rules against certain things, but in order for certain investigations to be done, that Jedi would most certainly have to break many of the rules of the Jedi tenets, in order to get the job done. Jedi for the most part lived very sheltered lives. It took a very special Jedi to handle this type of work. You would not be considered a normal Jedi. A little darker perhaps, having learned the truths that the Council tended to hide from the general Jedi populace. You cant crawl around within the underbelly of the order, without becoming a bit, 'dirty', or' tainted', if you will. These Jedi understood the light and dark, but they also understood that if something needed to be done, to stop a greater evil or threat, then it was up to them to do what was necessary. Almost all of these.."Shadows" tended to be Grey. "Choice is a matter of perspective...." Another, lesser known group that seems to be very close, and is often confused to the Grey Jedi is that of the SHADOW JEDI. Often described as 'one in search of balance'. One who seeks balance with the Force, neither light nor dark. They follow the will of the Force and do what they feel necessary. They believe in following the "Will of the Force", always seeking a balance. Being Shadow is not about the "Easy" thing, or "straddling the middle". It is about doing what the Force leads, and taking responsibility for your own actions. While Shadows and Grey Jedi are very similar, there is a difference that separates them from each other. The Difference of Grey and Shadow: Grey Jedi believe in Sides. Grey Jedi practice both Light Side and Dark Side techniques and use whatever works best for the best outcome within the moment. Grey Jedi seek similar ends as the "Light" Jedi, but feel a Jedi should use whatever means are at their disposable to accomplish it. A Shadow Jedi does not believe in Sides. There is no Light Side, there is no Dark Side, there is merely the Force and it's infinite capacity for knowledge. Balance is maintained within the individual (often the source of confusion between the two paths). The Grey Path was developed with an idea that a Jedi should not be limited in any way, no technique off limits with the proper training. The Shadow Path removed Sides and instead focused on training the individual to be a capable Jedi understanding the Force as a whole, not separated by any aspects. .................................... This dosent sound like much, but it is a fundamental difference between the two groups. Most gamers never realize this, or ignore the fact. This single aspect would make a profound difference in the way a character would react to certain situations. "We are the Shadow Jedi. We are those who walk the pathless path. We are neither light, nor dark. Nor are we anything in between. We are not those who tread a fine line between light and dark, we are not fence sitters. We are a different sort of Jedi altogether. We have our own philosophy.. The path of the Shadow is a deeply personal thing. Our basic tenets are constant, but the rest of our philosophy is based on personal experience. Therefore, the path is different for each Shadow. It is individualized. But it is also very difficult, due to the lack of set rules and constraints. The only constraints we have are the ones we place upon ourselves. " "However, the simple truth of the matter is that the Shadows, in general, don't believe in separate sides. There is one Force. To divide it into two sides, light and dark, would not do it justice. The Force is infinite." ---------------------------------------------- "Being a hero or a villain is all a matter of perspective ..." And this brings me to my last group to talk about. The Jensaarai The Jensaarai were an order of Force-users from the Suarbi system, who arose during the Clone Wars.As the Clone Wars drew to a close, the Jedi Order crumbled under heavy casualties. With many Jedi dead or missing and the future of the order in question, some Jedi began deserting the Order and heading off to survive on their own. The Jensaarai was Sith for "hidden followers of truth." Their philosophy and methodology was a blend of Sith and Jedi teachings. To the Jensaarai, both the Jedi and Sith had left their true path, too busy trying to reach out and expand their own groups and goals. They had forgotten the true goals...to protect and defend. Jensaarai philosophy and abilities were thus syncretistic; the mixture of Jedi and Sith teachings complemented each other perfectly. From their Jedi roots they were deeply honorable, disciplined, and respected those same traits in their enemies. From the Sith they learned the power of aggression, though not to the point of the dark side. In that regard, the Jensaarai, after the death of Tyris, remained true to the light side, only with a different outlook on the universe and the Jedi Knights. One Jedi ideal the Jensaarai never abandoned was the defense of peace and justice. Founded on training perfected by the Jedi Order for thousands of years, the Jensaarai tradition contains many similarities to that of the Jedi. Their training focuses on defending others and protecting the Jensaarai from being discovered by their enemies. AT one time, both the Jedi and the Sith and Imperial forces were thought of as 'the Enemy.' In this time, lessons combine defensive aspects of Jedi training with more aggressive Sith tactics. Jensaarai lore is rife with tales of Jedi betrayal. Once the Empire sought to destroy all Force-users, apprentices were similarly taught of Imperial injustices. Jensaarai apprentices focus more on martial skills for the better part of their education when compared to Jedi Padawan apprentices, who are expected to seek balance in their studies. These Defenders carry on the prejudices born of their formative years in everything they do. During the reign of the Empire, some defenders roamed Susevfi, harassing Imperial forces. Others relentlessly prepare for the imminent confrontations with the remnants of the Jedi Order. Many defenders master a variant Lightsaber combat known as Shien as well as their own martial arts style, called Rek'dul. Through the application of these fighting techniques, the aggressive Jensaarai defender is a formidable foe in combat. Back History of the Jensaarai:: As the Clone Wars drew to a close, the Jedi Order crumbled under heavy casualties. With many Jedi dead or missing and the future of the order in question, some Jedi began deserting the Order and heading off to survive on their own. One such deserter was a mysterious Jedi known as Nikkos Tyris, an Anzati who was one of the oldest living Jedi at the time. Tyris and at least two other Jedi Knights had discovered ancient Sith documents dating back thousands of years. Upon deciphering the cryptic Sith language, they began to absorb the knowledge within. This new information drastically altered their view of the Jedi, inspiring them to splinter off to form their own organization. Digging deeper into the mysterious documents, they learned new and forbidden techniques that the Jedi had deemed highly dangerous or maliciously evil. Their power grew quickly and their resentment of the Jedi began to consume them. They began taking on students and forming families; eventually they had developed into a community that incorporated Sith ideas and traditions into traditional teachings. Eventually, they named themselves the Jensaarai, an ancient Sith word meaning "hidden followers of truth", and continued to grow in numbers. The Jedi Order dispatched a trio of Jedi, among them Corellian Jedi Master Nejaa Halcyon and Caamasi Jedi Knight Ylenic It'kla, to either bring Tyris and his band back into the Order or keep them from spreading their heresy any further. Unsurprisingly, the tainted leaders of the Jensaarai resisted. On the plains of the moon Susevfi, there was a great Lightsaber duel between three Jedi against Tyris and the other two fallen Jedi. The three Jensaarai were slain, as was Master Halcyon. Sole-survivor of this encounter, Ylenic It'kla returned to the Council with the belief that the threat of the Jensaarai had been eliminated. With the Jedi gone and their masters slain, the remaining Jensaarai emerged from hiding and continued to train, though without the guidance of true Masters. Forced to continue only with the knowledge they had been given, Jensaarai teachings were no longer tainted by the dark side of the Force. Although they harbored hatred for the Jedi who had slain their Masters, they escaped the dark side's thrall. The Jensaarai teachings became more practical, focusing less on the inherent existentialism of the Jedi, but with respect for life not found in Sith lore. The young first sharpen their martial skills in large groups before graduating to a series of one-on-one training regimens. Jensaarai apprentices train with a new mentor each year until attaining the rank of defender. A Jensaarai is taught the art of the Lightsaber from a very young age. Whereas for the Jedi the construction of a Lightsaber is a major step, for the Jensaarai it is only half the equation. Their training focuses on defending others and protecting the Jensaarai from being discovered by enemies such as the Jedi. In this time, lessons combine defensive aspects of Jedi training with more aggressive Sith tactics. Jensaarai lore is rife with tales of Jedi betrayal. Once the Empire sought to destroy all Force-users, apprentices were similarly taught of Imperial injustices. Jensaarai apprentices focus more on martial skills for the better part of their education when compared to Jedi Padawan apprentices, who are expected to seek balance in their studies. To me, the Jensaarai remind me of Taarna, a Taarakian from the movie, "Heavy Metal". Their creed was: To Defend, this is the Pact. But when life looses its value, And is taken for naught. Then the Pact is, To Avenge. It is not wise, to mess with a Jensaarai. -------------------------------------------- THE CODES Nothing is more telling about a group, that the codes that they happen to believe in at the time. Here is a collections of various groups 'codes' I have found. It will help understanding the difference in the groups. Codes are a great jumping-off point, but must be flexible (or disposable) enough to be able to adapt to the ever-changing nature of the Force and the dynamic nature of Balance. Doing what is right without any hard-and-fast, graven-in-stone rigid Code requires the most rigorous of self-discipline and introspection. ----------------------------------------------------------- .....Early Jedi Code..... Emotion, yet peace. Ignorance, yet knowledge. Passion, yet serenity. Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force. .............. .....Modern Version - Jedi Code..... There is no emotion, there is peace There is no ignorance, there is knowledge There is no passion, there is serenity There is no death, there is the Force -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------Sith Code-------- Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The force shall set free me. ......................... ......Dark Jedi Code..... There is no peace, there is anger. There is no fear, there is power. There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side. ............................. .....Dark Side Code #2..... I am the Heart of Darkness. I know no fear, But rather I instill it in my enemies. I am the destroyer of worlds. I know the power of the Dark Side. I am the fire of hate. All the Universe bows before me. I pledge myself to the Darkness. For I have found true life, In the death of the light. ...................... .....Dark Jedi Code #3..... There is no peace, there is anger There is no fear, there is power. There is no death, there is immortality. There is no weakness, there is the Dark Side. ------------------------------------------------------------------- .....The Grey Code..... There are emotions, yet we have Serenity. There is Chaos, yet Harmony is produced. There are passions, yet there can be Balance. There's often hurry, still we cultivate patience. There's much ignorance: this knowledge is wisdom. There will be Death. But there is the Force ------------------------------------------------- Version 2 In chaos we can find peace; To ignorance we must bring tolerance; When our hearts run away with our brains, we seek wisdom and serenity; In the midst of darkness, the Force shows the way. ------------------------------------------ Version 3 There is no outer chaos, there is only inner peace There is no hatred, there is only love There is no pride, there is only self-sacrifice There is no death, there is only eternal light There is no higher being, there is only the Force -------------------------------------------------------------------- .....Shadow Code..... Through pain comes wisdom; but not without ignorance comes knowledge. There is no power; there is only the Force. There are no sides; only the whole Peace and Justice comes to those who are willing to seek it and grasp it through whatever comes upon them. No darkness, no light; only understanding. ------------------------------------------------------------------- .....Jensarrari Code ..... I Seek the Truth of Power and of Love of a Sound Mind and of Compassion of honor and of the Force I Shall Endure and Awaken! --0000-- And a sometimes added line: I Shall Check My Panoply! (Panoply=Suit of armor) ============================================ I hope this small tid-bit helps folks out who wish to try and role-play other types of Force users. Enjoy! -----signature----- Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light!! Earth: The insane asylum for the universe.* Cheap core bombs...only used once. HOIST THE COLORS!!!!!! AUG 29 - Sep 1 *DRAGON-CON!!!* (Im outta here!)
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 8:22am Subject: RE: ***** The Not So Black and Whte of Force Users
	Ktala posted: Deji Skywalker I do not think you're helping your case with this one. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 9:06am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/22 9:07am (1 edits total) Edited By: LightWarden
	Can someone explain what the heck people are angling for when they use the phrase "balance"? Because I'm getting this weird feeling that no one really has any idea that isn't a completely arbitrary one. "One who uses both the Light Side and Dark Side techniques and methods. Their methods consist of whatever will get the job done. They do not seek to restrict themselves. Balance is only a factor in personal relations, making sure they do not fall one way or another. They still help others, but have few restrictions in just how to help." (emphasis mine) What does this mean? Don't do too many good deeds, you might start to like it? Kill a few homeless people to make sure your dark powers don't desert you in your moment of need? What I've gathered so far is that working on the light side means that you're acting with compassion and concern, promoting life and the well-being of other living beings. Working on the dark side tends to be more about death and destruction. You state that the Dark Side draws on the power of emotion, positive or negative, but since I've never seen a dark sider draw on his overflowing love of humanity to throw a Super Happy Fun Ball that disintegrates the opposition, I think that argument is a bit weak, considering most of the powers associated with the Dark Side can best be described as "use your hate to kill dudes". Which brings me to my next point, of wondering what these little fringe organizations are doing when they tap into the "totally not the dark side", because in my experience, it's usually "I kill dudes, but I'm totally justified in doing so." If they're not doing that, then what are they doing that's "totally not the dark side"? -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 9:48am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	GREAT article, Ktala, and it actually helps me a lot, and will most likely help a lot of other people. Lightwarden, Balance is generally a term that is misconceived, like what you just did with it. This article, IMO, helps visualize a more logical definition of Balance. Balance is inside the user, and isn't the black and white meaning that you described it with. It generally means, IMO, that you can use aggression, but only to a selfless or honorable cause. Such as, killing a Sith Lord who is "irredeemable", or at least when there is no other option, to save the lives of countless innocent people. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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Jauhzmynn Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 5/22 9:55am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	THe post is quite susinct and clear on the definitions of the various 'veiw point' on fiction. It's all fun and good to use as a referance for roleplaying a charactor in one of these archtypes. -----signature----- Lightside Jedi Knight Jauhzmynn Enz :-) Isa. 42:6-9 , 2 Cor. 5:17, Eph 6:10-18 www.thejediassembly.com
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 10:04am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	And how is that "balance"? Balance of what? I could maybe see the phrases "temperance", "restraint" or "focus" used, but balance implies some sort of equilibrium. If you're using aggression, haven't you already made a mistake somewhere and haven't done as well as you could have? Couldn't you do something like... I don't know... take him alive? -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Ktala Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 5/22 10:09am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	LightWarden posted: Ktala posted: Deji Skywalker I do not think you're helping your case with this one. Actually, it helps quite a bit. Thanks for the link. -----signature----- Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light!! Earth: The insane asylum for the universe. Cheap core bombs...only used once. HOIST THE COLORS!!!!!! AUG 29 - Sep 1 *DRAGON-CON!!!* (Im outta here!)
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 10:25am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	LightWarden posted: And how is that "balance"? Balance of what? I could maybe see the phrases "temperance", "restraint" or "focus" used, but balance implies some sort of equilibrium. If you're using aggression, haven't you already made a mistake somewhere and haven't done as well as you could have? Couldn't you do something like... I don't know... take him alive? It is balance, as it is basically balancing what is deemed both good and evil into one action, even if it is all good to one person, and all evil to another. And, about the use of aggression, the fact about a mistake being made is all up to opinion. To one person, they made a mistake, and to the other they did the right thing. Also, taking him alive would be the most foolish choice. As Ktala said about the Grey Jedi, they do what is the best option logically, not morally. To me, shades of gray are shades of gray because of points of view that say they are one thing, where another point of view says they are completely the opposite. That means, IMO, that balance would be the compromise of those two points of view. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 12:07pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Ktala posted: Actually, it helps quite a bit. Thanks for the link. It's a fanon article that says he's the distant descendant of Cade Skywalker, born 1180 ABY. I'm not sure if that's really relevant to your article, given that most games take place over a thousand years earlier. Plus the whole "Gray Force" article isn't very good (Hey kids, it's Exar Kun!). Especially since his "Gray Force" article consists of large amounts of powers whose sole purpose is... well... to kill dudes (but without guilt, 'cause there's no negative emotions involved!). Talk about shooting fish in a barrel. Kev-Mas_Colcha posted: It is balance, as it is basically balancing what is deemed both good and evil into one action, even if it is all good to one person, and all evil to another. And, about the use of aggression, the fact about a mistake being made is all up to opinion. To one person, they made a mistake, and to the other they did the right thing. Also, taking him alive would be the most foolish choice. As Ktala said about the Grey Jedi, they do what is the best option logically, not morally. To me, shades of gray are shades of gray because of points of view that say they are one thing, where another point of view says they are completely the opposite. That means, IMO, that balance would be the compromise of those two points of view. Just because someone has a contrary opinion, doesn't mean that they deserve anything resembling consideration. You yourself said as much when you stated that you should be killing a Sith Lord because he's going to threaten innocent people. You have just made a value judgment based on some ultimate creed of things that be good and things that be evil. And compromise for the sake of compromise is completely foolish. "I want to kill you." "I'd rather not be killed." "Ok, let's compromise and I'll just maim you." This should probably sound pretty stupid to you. This is because you are capable of thought and realize that there are some things that are inherently wrong (I could add "to you" here, but for crying out loud, what kind of idiot would say "sure, if their society supports the routine maiming of its citizens, that means we should respect it"). Values. You have them, you make judgments on them. There's a whole series of clusterfrags that crop up when you try to pit them against each other, but I think all of us here agree that some of them are better than others, and switching it the other way around probably isn't the best idea. Since discussing the value of values requires an established set of values to judge it with, it creates a circular loop that means this aspect of the issue should be tabled for the moment. "As Ktala said about the Grey Jedi, they do what is the best option logically, not morally." What the? The "best option logically" is another one of those things that presumes some set of values. Basically, it's whatever one solves the problem most efficiently. If you have a moral problem, then there's a logical solution to that moral problem. And you have yet to tell me exactly why it is that killing this Sith Lord of yours is the optimal solution, given the sheer number of light side powers that can be used to take him out of commission without actually ending his life, completely eliminating the need for any of this. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 12:29pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Just because someone has a contrary opinion, doesn't mean that they deserve anything resembling consideration. You yourself said as much when you stated that you should be killing a Sith Lord because he's going to threaten innocent people. You have just made a value judgment based on some ultimate creed of things that be good and things that be evil. And compromise for the sake of compromise is completely foolish. "I want to kill you." "I'd rather not be killed." "Ok, let's compromise and I'll just maim you." This should probably sound pretty stupid to you. This is because you are capable of thought and realize that there are some things that are inherently wrong (I could add "to you" here, but for crying out loud, what kind of idiot would say "sure, if their society supports the routine maiming of its citizens, that means we should respect it"). Values. You have them, you make judgments on them. There's a whole series of clusterfrags that crop up when you try to pit them against each other, but I think all of us here agree that some of them are better than others, and switching it the other way around probably isn't the best idea. Since discussing the value of values requires an established set of values to judge it with, it creates a circular loop that means this aspect of the issue should be tabled for the moment. Not what I meant. I mean in your own conscience, not others. What the? The "best option logically" is another one of those things that presumes some set of values. Basically, it's whatever one solves the problem most efficiently. If you have a moral problem, then there's a logical solution to that moral problem. And you have yet to tell me exactly why it is that killing this Sith Lord of yours is the optimal solution, given the sheer number of light side powers that can be used to take him out of commission without actually ending his life, completely eliminating the need for any of this. Well, you don't always have access to those lightside powers. Not everyone has a gazillion tricks up their sleeves, especially if they don't specialize in one side. If you specialize in both sides, generally, you are more versatile, but not as strong in general use of one power or technique. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 12:51pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/22 12:53pm (2 edits total) Edited By: LightWarden
	Earlier: It is balance, as it is basically balancing what is deemed both good and evil into one action. Not what I meant. I mean in your own conscience, not others. So, wait a minute... you're intentionally doing things you believe to be wrong for the sake of balance? Again, what are you balancing? This still sounds like those pointless "balance for the sake of balance" shticks. Well, you don't always have access to those lightside powers. Not everyone has a gazillion tricks up their sleeves, especially if they don't specialize in one side. If you specialize in both sides, generally, you are more versatile, but not as strong in general use of one power or technique. Actually, you're more versatile if you stick to light side and general/universal powers, because as we've established, most of the dark side powers are used for killing dudes, which kind of makes most of them redundant. And it's not your powers, it's how smart you are with them. The sheer variety of things you can do with just telekinesis is staggering, which should leave you plenty of room to hone your abilities with powers that don't involve killing people (because they can be used in far more situations). Besides, if you don't have tricks up your sleeve, you're probably not very good at this sort of thing. The dark side offers nothing. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 1:13pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	However, that's exactly why most people aren't suited towards this sort of thing. As it isn't just an excuse to use both sides of the force. It actually has nothing to do with that. All in all, its just a different philosophy on the force. That being, that there's more to the force than using it for obvious causes, such as using it for selfish or selfless reasons. The ideal way to use the force, in my opinion, is to give back to the force, and do what you think the force wants you to, whether it be deemed by society to be right, or even completely wrong. You have to listen to the force, and tone everyone else out. This is why this belief is so controversial, as it both selfish and selfless at the same time. You get shunned for not doing what you want, because its also something that the general public wants as well. Furthermore, back onto the topic of role playing, I think that this means that Force Users in this category should be complete loners, or at least not be able to have positive relationships with people not like them, but not the angsty type of loner, because the reasoning is completely different with this. Furthermore, it makes this type of Force User rare, as nobody likes to be hated for doing something somewhat against their free will, and the fact that it is a hard path to follow. However, not to say that there isn't rewards, as there is - and that is most likely obvious. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 1:32pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Problem here is that the "Force" your character is listening to is just you. This means that the odds of you actually acknowledging a character's wrongdoing are slim to none. This is why this belief is so controversial, as it both selfish and selfless at the same time. You get shunned for not doing what you want, because its also something that the general public wants as well. Furthermore, back onto the topic of role playing, I think that this means that Force Users in this category should be complete loners, or at least not be able to have positive relationships with people not like them, but not the angsty type of loner, because the reasoning is completely different with this. Furthermore, it makes this type of Force User rare, as nobody likes to be hated for doing something somewhat against their free will, and the fact that it is a hard path to follow. ... ... ... Please tell me you see the problem here. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 1:45pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	You do realize it is possible to play a loner character, right? Its just that barely anybody plays them right. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 2:00pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Yes, but what you just presented sounds suspiciously like "no one knows the depths of things I must do for my patriotic love of all living things and thus they shun me for it, so I must move with my own kind who will not judge me wrong for the magnificent things I do", which sounds all but a shoddy haircut away from certain social scenes. If you're playing a loner character "right", I think it'd be someone who just likes the calm of being alone, not someone who was all but driven away from society. Seriously though, how does listening to the Force equate to killing a guy with dark side powers? You think if the Force wanted someone dead using the Force, it'd just do it itself, were it not for the whole "you're using the Force to injure a living being, who is part of the Force." Being that life and the Force have a symbiotic relationship, you'd think that the listening to the Force would sound something like "DON'T KILL ANYONE!" -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Title: Forum Feud Winner Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 2:20pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Well, not exactly. The character type I presented, they still long for social interactions with others, and they attempt to do so as well. Its just that they are usually shunned. And, who's not to say that everybody will know what they believe, and thus shun them? Also, on the other point you brought up, this belief doesn't believe that the force and life are symbiotic to that point, but just that the Force created it. So, its sorta like a "smiting" type of thing, except that since the force works through its creation, it works through its creation to "smite" the other creation that ends another part of its creation. Or, it could be how a gardener prunes a bad branch off of a tree. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) Links: http://kevmascolcha.templeoftheforce.co.cc/links.php "He is the Warrior of, He is the Warrior of, Warrior of Twilight's Call!"
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