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Author	Topic: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 2:25pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	The character type I presented, they still long for social interactions with others, and they attempt to do so as well. Its just that they are usually shunned. Are you sure you don't see the problem with this? ...This is pure teen angst! Also, on the other point you brought up, this belief doesn't believe that the force and life are symbiotic to that point, but just that the Force created it. So, its sorta like a "smiting" type of thing, except that since the force works through its creation, it works through its creation to "smite" the other creation that ends another part of its creation. Or, it could be how a gardener prunes a bad branch off of a tree. Wait, you have a belief system wherein people are smote for doing bad things by other people who are using bad means to do bad things to those people did bad things in order to punish them for the bad things they did via bad things? This does explain why I never get a straight answer. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Ace_Aso Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/22 2:43pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Do Grey( or gray, I don't really care) Jedi actually have to dabble in the darkside of the force? I always thought they just didn't do everything the council said.
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/22 2:52pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Grey Jedi believe in Sides. Grey Jedi practice both Light Side and Dark Side techniques and use whatever works best for the best outcome within the moment. Grey Jedi seek similar ends as the "Light" Jedi, but feel a Jedi should use whatever means are at their disposable to accomplish it. That's their definition, I'm just arguing that it's a silly excuse to use Dark Side powers instead of using your head. None of this Dark Side stuff is needed at all. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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greyjedi125 Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 5/22 5:32pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/22 6:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: greyjedi125
	An excellent write up Ktala, Bravisima! I haven't seen one of these posted here in forever. I should have guessed you'd be the brave one to post something like this. The content is quite informative and thought provoking, which I believe is the fundamental point. It is my hope that a more diverse group of folks in the RPF read it and chime in with positive commentary, in addition to Q&A and general discussion. I rather like what you wrote about the grey....err, gray jedi. LOL! If you recall in IBoP, my grey jedi charater would always say to Luke Skywalker, "The Force is One!"; it was nice to see that reflected here. The Light and Dark references were more for those who use such distinctions. But before I get carried away, I must also say, I enjoyed your mention of the Jedi origins, their philosophies and the subsequent breakdown in schools of thought. A worthy article indeed and a nice springboard for players of all levels. Those who wish to learn more will undoubtedly do the research, but there's more than enough information present to school even the casual gamer. So, thank you. MTFBWY -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."_Yoda "I find your lack of Faith disturbing."_ Darth Vader AoD & GDG member. "Eats, shoots and leaves." I love this book! A Heroic Deed is what you do DESPITE your fears.
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Saintheart Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/22 5:55pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	If it wasn't already apparent from the lack of threadlock the presence of this topic in the RPR is approvalated. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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Despised1 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/22 6:26pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	That was an excellent read Ktala, thanks for putting it up. I already know that I am going to be reading this again, and hopefully I can walk away from the thread with a better idea of how to incorporate Force ideology into my posting. -----signature----- ~Sith Loyalist~ "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today and it won't be you." "Eventus stultorum magister!"
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DarthXan318 Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 5/22 6:59pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Yay it's up! Excellent read. ... omg, OPPM for the first time in years. -----signature----- It's "godmoding," not "godmodding." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godmoding
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/22 11:54pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	LightWarden posted: The character type I presented, they still long for social interactions with others, and they attempt to do so as well. Its just that they are usually shunned. Are you sure you don't see the problem with this? ...This is pure teen angst! The shunning isn't always the case though. If they are only known for actually doing something that people liked in a certain area, they could be viewed as a hero in that area. It all depends on what they do and where they do it. For example, if the force user in question helped liberate slavery in one place, they could be viewed as a hero, but not by all classes. Obviously, the former slaves would rejoice, and the former slave-owners would be pretty peeved. Also, on the other point you brought up, this belief doesn't believe that the force and life are symbiotic to that point, but just that the Force created it. So, its sorta like a "smiting" type of thing, except that since the force works through its creation, it works through its creation to "smite" the other creation that ends another part of its creation. Or, it could be how a gardener prunes a bad branch off of a tree. Wait, you have a belief system wherein people are smote for doing bad things by other people who are using bad means to do bad things to those people did bad things in order to punish them for the bad things they did via bad things? This does explain why I never get a straight answer. No, not at all like that. It doesn't create a loop like that, as the force doesn't care if the "bad thing" was done using its will. It only cares if the "bad thing" is done AGAINST its will. I think I may be going to far with this, but I also think I may be on to something here. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) http://kevmascolcha.twilightmainframe.net/links Colcha/Mikaru '08
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/23 12:37am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	If you're on something, you might want to find a firmer position. The shunning isn't always the case though. If they are only known for actually doing something that people liked in a certain area, they could be viewed as a hero in that area. It all depends on what they do and where they do it. For example, if the force user in question helped liberate slavery in one place, they could be viewed as a hero, but not by all classes. Obviously, the former slaves would rejoice, and the former slave-owners would be pretty peeved. Actually, you could end up with even more people hating you than you realize if you just walk in, stab some slave owners, chop some chains and walk out. It'd be rather like a surgeon who's supposed to perform an appendectomy, cuts out the appendix and then leaves the patient to take care of the rest. Anyways, are you actually going anywhere with this thing? You made some similarly vague statement 16 posts back about shades of gray, different points of view, and compromising, and then you said something about it being in your own conscience. Plus, I'm not really sure how the negative opinions of some people who violated human rights have anything to do with a character being "normally shunned" unless we're in some bizarre fantasy world where this sort of thing is considered the highest form of offense to every being involved. No, not at all like that. It doesn't create a loop like that, as the force doesn't care if the "bad thing" was done using its will. It only cares if the "bad thing" is done AGAINST its will. How oddly convenient. So, as long as the invisible voice that only you can hear gives you its approval, you can kill, loot, maim, mutilate, demolish, torture, slaughter and burn to your heart's content, because hey, he threw off the plan, amirite? How heroic! -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Rayson Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 5/23 12:22pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Wonderful article, and a very enjoyable read. -----signature----- I love Star Wars. I play World of Warcraft. I read ...books. Dear God, What have I become?
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MarcusDade Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 5/23 10:05pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	First off, wonderful read Ktala. It's good to see your view on things. Secondly, Lightwarden, Kev is coming from his own personal opinion. While he may come across like he's saying, "This is the way it is, and that's that," I doubt he means it. Thirdly, Kev, the title of Grey Jedi is a very debated term. It is used by very many different fans to mean very many different things. In the case of the Grey Jedi fanclub of the EUC, we envision a Grey Jedi as one who believes that there is no Lightside or Darkside, and seeks to find balance within himself, and within the galaxy. It is by no means a "Do whatever you like" card. Yes, a Grey Jedi as we see it (again, our opinion) will usually have the belief that the ends justify the means, but only in certain cases. He's not going to kill fifty people in order to eliminate one person, and he's not going to kill fifty mean to save one person. The way I view balance with the grey jedi, is one that balances themselves into harmony. They realize that without evil there is no good, without good there is no evil. Without day there is no night, without night there is no day. It is a matter of everything needing everything in a balanced way. If good or evil becomes unbalanced then the rest of the galaxy suffers. If the Jedi become too "powerful" and wipe out the sith, they become complacent, as they believe their enemies to be vanquished. In this, they allow new evil to infiltrate the galaxy, and the evil, because of the Jedi's complacency, will be more powerful than the good. If the evil becomes too "powerful" then the good is unbalanced, and again the galaxy suffers. Thus, to say "We need to kill off every Jedi and Sith to create balance" is silly, because you need the opposite. You need the Jedi to balance the sith and the sith to balance the Jedi. In order to find balance in evil and good, or light and dark, you wouldn't kill off both. To try and balance the galaxy is a worthless endeavour. But try and balance yourself and you reach harmony within your own demons and angels, your own light and darkness. Then you can deal with matters in a balanced way. The Grey Jedi's philosphy, as the Templars (the fan club) see it, is that if you balance yourself, and deal with each situation in balance, then those you deal with shall follow suit. And then its dominos from there. Now of course, it isn't that simple. But that's the philosophy in a very small, very brief nutshell. Kev, please stop coming across as if you are the authority on Grey Jedi. Nobody is an authority on them, because there are so many fan opinions on what a Grey Jedi truly is. Also, just because your character is a Grey Jedi (or templar in this case) doesn't make him the perfect one. The whole idea of our grey jedi is that they are striving for balance. A young grey jedi isn't going to spend two years and be like "boom! Yay I'm balanced!" Also, because of balance, a Grey Jedi, in my opinion, would frown upon killing when he didn't need to. What would killing do if it wasn't neccesary? It would CREATE imbalance, which is the exact opposite of what he wants to do. One does not create balance by simply removing what is creating imbalance. That just keeps the imbalance going. But anyway, I hope what I wrote is understandable. -----signature----- Gosei and Senator of The Templars of Twilight
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Kev-Mas_Colcha Registered: Dec '02	Date Posted: 5/23 10:17pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	When did I say that I was the authority on Grey Jedi? If anything, I view my philosophy as flawed. This is why I stated a bit ago that I was probably going too far, as I was unsure if I was saying the right things. -----signature----- Kage Umbris of the Templars of Twilight (as Kev-Mas Colcha) Jedi Master of the Jedi Order (as Kexx Mazinn) http://kevmascolcha.twilightmainframe.net/links Colcha/Mikaru '08
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/24 11:32am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Kev, when you're consistently providing responses to my questions without giving any indication that you don't know what you're talking about, I am forced to assume that you know what you're talking about. Dade, you've done a much clearer job of explaining your position, but something about it sounds weird, like reasons found for a specific philosophy rather than a philosophy founded on specific reasons. No offense intended, but given in all honesty, I suspect that was the case, where the idea of Gray Jedi was picked up on and people thought "hmm, why would a Gray Jedi be gray"? In the case of the Grey Jedi fanclub of the EUC, we envision a Grey Jedi as one who believes that there is no Lightside or Darkside, and seeks to find balance within himself, and within the galaxy. The way I view balance with the grey jedi, is one that balances themselves into harmony. They realize that without evil there is no good, without good there is no evil. So, you believe in Good and Evil without a Light Side and Dark Side, right? A "there are no evil powers, only evil users," "Force powers don't kill people, people kill people" sort of thing? Without day there is no night, without night there is no day. It is a matter of everything needing everything in a balanced way. If good or evil becomes unbalanced then the rest of the galaxy suffers. If the Jedi become too "powerful" and wipe out the sith, they become complacent, as they believe their enemies to be vanquished. In this, they allow new evil to infiltrate the galaxy, and the evil, because of the Jedi's complacency, will be more powerful than the good. If the evil becomes too "powerful" then the good is unbalanced, and again the galaxy suffers. Thus, to say "We need to kill off every Jedi and Sith to create balance" is silly, because you need the opposite. You need the Jedi to balance the sith and the sith to balance the Jedi. In order to find balance in evil and good, or light and dark, you wouldn't kill off both. To try and balance the galaxy is a worthless endeavour. But try and balance yourself and you reach harmony within your own demons and angels, your own light and darkness. Then you can deal with matters in a balanced way. Well, the galaxy suffers anyways, since Team Evil tends to do a lot of that, and the whole "Battle of Good and Evil" tends to take lives from everyone. A stalemate just turns it into World War I, a never-ending meat-grinder where nothing changes except the body count. But say one side wins. The side grows complacent, a newer and stronger version of the defeated comes back to play, wipes out the other side, which then goes off into the mountains for a few episodes to train and raise its power level to learn a new transformation so it can come back and fight. So, if Good can't exist without Evil and vice versa because they're two sides of the same coin and all that... exactly what purpose do you guys serve? If one side just comes back stronger, it looks as though the universe can balance itself. So... why do you need to be balanced? Why not... pick a side? What exactly does listening to your evil half help do aside from letting you have awesome powers and a neat press release? Apparently, you guys aren't totally apathetic about others, because you seem to think that the galaxy suffering under the weight of Team Evil is a bad thing... So why not go totally Light Side? So what if they wipe out evil and grow complacent, there'll be a period of peace where the little guy isn't getting stomped by Team Evil. Team Evil comes back strong and makes a nuisance of itself... well, dem's the breaks, just look forward to Team Good II: Electric Boogaloo. If things are perfectly balance, the universe will take care of itself. Of course, if you think that Good and Evil aren't Left and Right, but Up and Down, then there's not a perfect balance after all, with a natural gravity that makes it easy to go one way, hard to go the other... then, there'd probably be a reason to try to prevent Team Evil from gaining an advantage no matter what. But then again, if everything naturally drifts down, and if down is a bad direction, then wouldn't every little bit of up help? -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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MarcusDade Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 5/24 1:53pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	To answer your question, Lightwarden, the reason we don't "pick a side" is because that would defeat the whole purpose of our philosophy. Sometimes the less savoury path is needed to achieve the ultimate "good" which is balance, in our case. We, as "Gray Jedi" believe that the Jedi are misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith, and we view sith as misguided power-hungry warmongers who care nothing for the good of the galaxy, and only want more power than they will ever have. The force is a circle, and a circle has no beginning and no end, however depending on which way you look at it, it does have a left side and a right side. It also has a middle. We are the middle. Yes, we don't want to see the galaxy ruled under team evil, but we also don't want to see it ruled under Team Self-Righteous, either. Furthermore, the reason the gray jedi of our fandom do not view lightside and darkside, and because they don't see in black and white. They don't see in absolutes like Jedi or Sith. Thus, they don't see things in terms of "good" or "evil." They see things in terms of order, chaos and harmony. Order can be just as evil as any sith, and chaos can be just as good as the most valiant Jedi that you'll ever meet. However, few jedi or sith could ever reach true harmony, because they see the galaxy in terms of "lightside good, darkside bad." Whereas "we" see the galaxy in terms of the force, as the force has no lightside or darkside. I can use a force push to crush somebody against a spike and I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. As you guessed, we believe that there are no good or evil powers, just good and evil ways in which to use them. To put it in more perspective, we realize that without one side of the coin, there cannot be another. Thus, if the sith tried to fully wipe out the jedi, we would aid the jedi in stopping that. However, if the Jedi tried to do the same thing to the sith, we would help the sith defend themselves. Our particular philosophy is hard for some people to understand, I know. The general concesus of the people who do not like our philosophy is that we are simply gray because we don't want to choose a side, and becuase we want to be darkside without consequences. While this is the philosphy of some misguided few within our order, it is not the official stance of the order. The official stance of the order is one very simple code: There is no light side or dark side. There is only the force. Wisdom is my guide. It is simple, yet profound. Yes, we believe there is no lightside and darkside, but we let our wisdom be our guide. We let the wise among our order give us advice on the right course of action. We let our personal experience tell us what the proper course of action shall be in any given situation. We do not let ideals come in between us and the proper course of action. If the proper course of action is to sit back and do nothing, then we must control ourselves and do so. -----signature----- Gosei and Senator of The Templars of Twilight
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Rayson Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 5/24 2:06pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	As interesting as your argument is, I think it's detracting from the purpose of the thread. Move along. -----signature----- I love Star Wars. I play World of Warcraft. I read ...books. Dear God, What have I become?
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