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Author	Topic: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/24 3:43pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	We, as "Gray Jedi" believe that the Jedi are misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith, and we view sith as misguided power-hungry warmongers who care nothing for the good of the galaxy, and only want more power than they will ever have. That sounds like a rather strange representation of the sides. Sure, you've described a large and loud portion of the gibbering mouthers that make up some of the Community Council Jedi thread, but just because some people are terrible Jedi, it doesn't mean that the Jedi are terrible. If you're going to judge either side, then wouldn't it be better to judge them by the way they're supposed to be, be they Jedi or Sith? This is rather like me making the assumption about the Gray Jedi thanks to certain representatives. So tell me, what of the Jedi Code suggests "misguided do-gooders who do not see the consequences of their actions, and refuse to believe that there is anything more evil than the sith"? The force is a circle, and a circle has no beginning and no end, however depending on which way you look at it, it does have a left side and a right side. It also has a middle. We are the middle. Are we talking disc or ring? Because there's nothing but empty space in the middle of a ring. Anyways, no one has ever won an argument with an analogy, so let's continue and find a case with a little more meat on it. Yes, we don't want to see the galaxy ruled under team evil, but we also don't want to see it ruled under Team Self-Righteous, either. Wait... Self-Righteous? As in, moralistic, assured of one's "goodness" and utterly intolerant of different opinions? The Jedi Order is so self-righteous that when they encounter other Force sects such as the Matukai and the Potentium, they were so full of themselves that they... left those guys alone to do their own thing? If anyone's "self-righteous" here... Furthermore, the reason the gray jedi of our fandom do not view lightside and darkside, and because they don't see in black and white. And these other guys... do? They don't see in absolutes like Jedi or Sith. Aside from that one, you mean? Overplayed joke aside, let's continue. Thus, they don't see things in terms of "good" or "evil." They see things in terms of order, chaos and harmony. These aren't absolutes? Plus, I'm pretty sure there was a line about harmony and serenity in the Jedi Code, so I don't think you guys have a monopoly on that one. Order can be just as evil as any sith, and chaos can be just as good as the most valiant Jedi that you'll ever meet. However, few jedi or sith could ever reach true harmony, because they see the galaxy in terms of "lightside good, darkside bad." Whereas "we" see the galaxy in terms of the force, as the force has no lightside or darkside. [i]I can use a force push to crush somebody against a spike Telekinesis is considered a neutral power worthy of consideration before use for exactly that reason. and I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. Ok, that there sounds extremely suspicious. Based on the way it's used, I'm doubting that it shares the electromagnetic properties that are used to identify things like actual "bolt from the blue" lightning, though it is some sort of energy release that travels through the air and can do a number on bodies. Before someone drags up Cade Skywalker, he's not using Palpatine's "throw another baby on the barbie" lightning, he's doing some sort of weird thing on his own. In his words from issue 16... "I got this crazy healing ability. I can see the weak points in you like little broken red lines! I can see where you got wounded recently... I could heal that hurt. Pour the Force into the place where the red lines intersect. Or-- and here's a new idea-- maybe I could explode that point. Kill you." According to the Jedi on the scene when he used it in an earlier issue, he was calling on the Dark Side to do so. Feel free to state that he's a Jedi and thus incapable of seeing in anything other than black and white. As you guessed, we believe that there are no good or evil powers, just good and evil ways in which to use them. Planning on opening a tanning salon? Deadly Sight. For when you absolutely, positively, need to channel your hatred to kill everyone in the room. Seriously though, here's a whole bunch of powers in the handbook like this, which are designed for the sole purpose of inflicting agonizingly lethal injuries upon anyone you feel like smiting. And I'm really having a hard time figuring out what totally neat purposes they serve other than "kill dudes you don't like". Especially given that there are many ways to handle situations without killing things. To put it in more perspective, we realize that without one side of the coin, there cannot be another. So, you guys are the edge? Sorry to sound so dismissive, but this is one of those really trite analogies that gets wheeled out for every occasion. It's right up there with "happy medium" on the list of phrases that are too overplayed to help your argument. Thus, if the sith tried to fully wipe out the jedi, we would aid the jedi in stopping that. However, if the Jedi tried to do the same thing to the sith, we would help the sith defend themselves. Now, I admit my memory may be faulty here, but with their whole "the Force is used for knowledge and defense", have they ever been an instigator in any of these conflicts? I distinctly recall the original Sith faction got grabby and went for the Republic during the KotOR era, though the second conflict was kicked off by someone stirring up the Mandalorians. The New Sith Wars were started when Phanius said "**** this" and instigated a schism with the Jedi Order, but given the Jedi Order's historical record of not sending assassins after dissenters such as the Lost Twenty, I don't think they started this one. I don't know if there was any sort of active campaign to hunt down and kill the Sith instigated by the Jedi Order, though I won't deny they'd corral the artifacts and teaching tools whenever they found them. The official stance of the order is one very simple code: There is no light side or dark side. There is only the force. Wisdom is my guide. It is simple, yet profound. Yes, we believe there is no lightside and darkside, but we let our wisdom be our guide. We let the wise among our order give us advice on the right course of action. We let our personal experience tell us what the proper course of action shall be in any given situation. We do not let ideals come in between us and the proper course of action. If the proper course of action is to sit back and do nothing, then we must control ourselves and do so. Isn't there an old adage about wisdom, something along the lines of "being wise means realizing you aren't", or something to that extent? Firstly, I'm not sure what to believe about wisdom, considering that a character's mental stats are hard to prove at times, especially if there's a gulf between the character and author/player's respective mental abilities. Given that the median age on this board is probably about lateteen, I'm not sure what to think about the claims to wisdom and experience of the writers/players, and thus what to think about the wisdom of the characters. Not pointing fingers at you specifically, but there are times when I've seen characters on this board who are supposed to be experts in their field, but they make rookie mistakes because their players haven't done the research (same for fiction as well). But sidestepping this issue for the moment, I'd like to clarify something. You say that Gray Jedi are supposed to use "wisdom" to figure out what needs to be done, being some sort of personal experience and advice from the wise among you. Unless you guys usually stay home and/or only operate with an elder acting as Mission Control, you're probably going to run into something that your experience hasn't covered, and your elders either haven't encountered or they can't be reached to talk you through it. So what exactly is the Gray Jedi supposed to do in that situation? Do you guys have tenements you prioritize? I don't think you can have "wisdom" without some sort of consistency regarding some set of values, so if you could enlighten me as to what those things are, perhaps it would help people understand what you are, because as-is, "Wisdom" is one of those really tricky phrases, since it's easy to say that anyone who did something you didn't approve of wasn't acting wisely (and vice versa). -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/24 3:51pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Rayson posted: As interesting as your argument is, I think it's detracting from the purpose of the thread. Move along. The entire purpose of this thread is to discuss "The Not So Black and White of Force Users", I'm just confused because at times it seems like the only defining feature here is a sign that says "we're totally not Jedi or Sith". If we can get the philosophies cleared up, maybe we'll get fewer people who use the side for guilt-free murdering. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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MarcusDade Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 5/24 8:58pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Lightwarden, firstly you must realize that I am speaking from the specific philosphy that the fandom order created by the Grey Jedi fanclub in the EUC believes. Secondly, I refuse to continue this "conversation" any longer as you continue to berate me, and the beliefs that I am simply using to show my point of view. If you insist on being aggressive about it, and outright attacking everything I say to make it "wrong" then I refuse. End of conversation for me. -----signature----- Gosei and Senator of The Templars of Twilight
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/25 10:11am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	I apologize if you think I was berating you, as I think I was trying to show to I wasn't getting worked up about these things by making remarks in an attempt at humor. As to the beliefs thing, why wouldn't you test them under pressure? Consistency is a good thing. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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MarcusDade Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 5/25 12:02pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	LW, your remarks did not come across as humorous, but rather offensive. I was simply trying to answer your questions and you tore into the "beliefs" as if the only ones that are right in the world are yours. Testing beliefs, or questioning them is one thing. You came out and pretty much said, "your beliefs are retarded. Kthanxbye." While I accept your apology, you really need to work on the presentation of your arguments, because this isn't the first time you've done something that I would have taken as offensive if you directed it at me. -----signature----- Gosei and Senator of The Templars of Twilight
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Despised1 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/25 2:02pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Rayson posted: As interesting as your argument is, I think it's detracting from the purpose of the thread. Move along. I find myself agreeing with Rayson. -----signature----- ~Sith Loyalist~ "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today and it won't be you." "Eventus stultorum magister!"
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Winged_Jedi Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 5/25 4:15pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Firstly: great job Ktala on putting together this material. Secondly: I think this is exactly the place to discuss these sort of viewpoints. The concept of a Grey Jedi or 'neutral' Force User is one that should be dissected, as it is open to misuse and abuse. Thirdly: MarcusDade posted: Testing beliefs, or questioning them is one thing. You came out and pretty much said, "your beliefs are retarded. Kthanxbye." That was hardly what LW did. As far as I can see, his points are considered, logical and perfectly valid. You don't have to agree with him. You don't even have to answer him. But don't make an unfounded accusation like this. -----signature----- "The noblest prospect which a Scotchman ever sees, is the high road that leads him to England!" -Samuel Johnson
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Despised1 Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/25 5:10pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/25 5:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Despised1
	Fourthly.....WJ rocks, I love that guy! That is all. Trying to be more serious for a moment though, maybe you are right about this being the ideal location for such a discussion. I personally have never liked the idea of grey jedi (though I like greyjedi125 ), the issue I see does pretty much coincide with a lot of what LW has been saying. The grey jedi philosophy seems to get twisted into something that isn't very jedi like, and seems to get used as a "I can use both sides of the force as I see fit, and be both villain and hero any time I want" card. The only time I ever enjoyed reading grey jedi characters was in the old IBOP game, the way they was played there actually made sense. -----signature----- ~Sith Loyalist~ "Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap" "Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today and it won't be you." "Eventus stultorum magister!"
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Ktala Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 5/26 1:56am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Heheh.... Glad to see everyone busy discussing the topic. I decided to add a bit more, fuel to the fire. Here are the listing of Jedi Tenets, (Principles or rules) that the Jedi adopted along the way: Tenets They are not mentioned in the Code, but should be known for all Jedi. * The Jedi are the guardians of civilization, yet not allow civilization to destroy needlessly. * A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for aggression or personal gain. o A corollary of the Code was "A Jedi does not act for personal power." * The lightsaber is the symbol of the members of the Jedi Order. * Jedi do not marry (with some exceptions), in order to avoid attachment.However, in many periods of the Order's history, such as the era prior to Exar Kun and in Luke Skywalker's reformed Jedi Order, marriage was not forbidden. * Jedi respect one another and all life forms. * Jedi must put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals. * A Jedi must protect the weak and defenseless from evil. * Jedi must always cooperate in battle or crisis. * Jedi must not have wants; self-reliance must be shown. * Jedi are forbidden from ruling others, although by the end of the Republic there was some debate over whether or not this was part of the actual Code. * A Jedi Master may not have more than one Padawan. This particular rule developed after the Old Sith Wars, as most ancient Masters such as Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Krynda Draay did not have to abide by it. The Jedi Exile also trained many apprentices at the same time due to their Force-sensitivity and the galaxy's dire need for Jedi. However, one apprentice per master seemed to be the standard around 32 BBY. But due to the lack of numbers in Luke Skywalker's Academy, several padawans per master was forced, as seen in Jaden Korr and Rosh Penin training under Kyle Katarn * While the Code did not mention a maximum age for taking Padawans, Jedi Master Simikarty wrote influential interpretations of the Code that inserted such limits; over time, his interpretations of the Code became conflated with the Code itself. In Revan's era, apprentices were taken from early childhood. After the end of the New Sith Wars, it became policy to take apprentices from infancy, which proved controversial with those outside the Order. Conversely, Nomi Sunrider started her training as an adult, as did the apprentices of the Jedi Exile and many of the New Jedi Order. * A Jedi will not kill an unarmed opponent. * A Jedi will not take revenge. * A Jedi does not cling to the past. * The Jedi do not believe in killing their prisoners. hehehe.. Have fun! -----signature----- Blessed are the cracked, for they let in the light!! Earth: The insane asylum for the universe. Cheap core bombs...only used once. ... ...getting back to work...slowly...
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Saintheart Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/26 2:16am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	A Jedi Master may not have more than one Padawan. This particular rule developed after the Old Sith Wars, as most ancient Masters such as Arca Jeth, Thon, Vodo-Siosk Baas and Krynda Draay did not have to abide by it. The Jedi Exile also trained many apprentices at the same time due to their Force-sensitivity and the galaxy's dire need for Jedi. However, one apprentice per master seemed to be the standard around 32 BBY. But due to the lack of numbers in Luke Skywalker's Academy, several padawans per master was forced, as seen in Jaden Korr and Rosh Penin training under Kyle Katarn. As it is, the rule of one padawan per master was set in stone by 32 BBY: Yoda: An apprentice you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible to take on a second. Mace Windu: The Code forbids it. Aside to the audience: The main reason the ancients got away with stuff that the Jedi of the late era didn't was fundamentally because of Dark Horse EU discontinuities between the two sets of movies. Multiple apprentices for one master was fundamentally a Dark Horse innovation when telling the stories of the ancient Jedi. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/28 12:39pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users ** - Date Edited: 5/28 12:50pm (3 edits total) Edited By: SaddhaQinntara
	MarcusDade posted: LW, your remarks did not come across as humorous, but rather offensive. I was simply trying to answer your questions and you tore into the "beliefs" as if the only ones that are right in the world are yours. Testing beliefs, or questioning them is one thing. You came out and pretty much said, "your beliefs are retarded. Kthanxbye." While I accept your apology, you really need to work on the presentation of your arguments, because this isn't the first time you've done something that I would have taken as offensive if you directed it at me. LW wasen't trying to insult you, and in reading some of what you tried to explain, it made it look like you have next to no real knowledge of The Force. Btw, "Templar" is a plural word, like Jedi or Samurai, you don't pronounce it "Templars", that's kinda retarded spelling. -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/28 12:40pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Also, I'm new here. Hi! What a way to start off with an intro... -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/28 12:49pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	I'll read more deeply into the discussion though... -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/28 1:20pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	If I may interject... When I first heard about the idea of the Gray Jedi and such, I found that it seemed to have become a really popular fad and sort of a fashionable novelty to think of the Force as neither Evil nor Good, and that those who disregarded both sides and stayed in the middle became all-powerful. So, everyone jumped on the bandwagon and started making characters that were like, "My character is Grand Lord Nelson. He found long ago that the Light side and Dark side are a lie, and now he has tapped into powers beyond anyone's comprehension..." If that kind of thing were true, the Sith would have figured that out long ago and utilized it to achieve their goals. Also, that type of character is both idiotic and pompous. But that's beside the point. The school of thought that the Jedi follow is, at it's core, correct. The Jedi Order had existed for 25,000 years. That's about five times or more what any of our most insightful schools have ever existed here on Earth. You can't have a particular curriculum that get's studied, disciplined and perceived for that many millennia and have it turn out to be completely wrong. It seems a tad redundant. Consider this theory: “The Force cannot be split into light and dark. To truly understand it, one must utilize the greater aspects of both to achieve greater knowledge." Gaining Omnipotent power within the Force has nothing to do with using both the light side and dark side together, or failing to acknowledge that the Force has a light and dark side. The Force is the manifestation of thoughts and feelings in action. Just like a neutrality of thought, you are left with indecision, or you cannot completely align to either one ideal or the other, and thus never truly realize the potential of your actions. In that manner the Force is much like this. If you stay in between and choose to align neither to the light side or the dark side, you create a limitation on your potential, and thus cannot truly realize your power within the Force. That is why those who have chosen to arbor the ideal of being "Grey" in the Force are actually impeding their own power and have thus rendered themselves weaklings. You choose either light or dark. Live in between, and you will only stand on the edge of an horizon, never knowing what truly lies beyond. This is the true nature of the Force. “There are Jedi that regard the Force as one whole.” It is a whole, but it moves in a circle, and even within this circle chaos and peace swirl together at intersections to bind the Force together. But, to realize true understanding to the Force, you must merge with it at either its light or dark side. Stay within the twilight, and you bind yourself to a more baser realm within the existence of the Force. After a lot of thought, I came to that conclusion, and though It may be right, it may also be wrong. Thoughts? -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/28 1:26pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Heh, If you think about it, it's like coming to a road and deciding that you have to either cross it, or don't If you just sit there forever though, not crossing the road, but not completely ruling out your intention to cross it, you will never reach your destination on the other side. Your goal. That Force is like that, you can choose to be Light, or you can choose to be Dark. Saying in the middle lends flexibility, but your power will be forever impeded, because you cannot make a decision, you are stuck in between. If the goal is omnipotence or understanding the Force, you won't reach it just standing there, you have to take a step. -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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