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Author	Topic: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
NickLitYouAFlame Registered: Feb '07	Date Posted: 5/29 2:45pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Excuses, excuses. -----signature----- Flannel Shoes
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/29 2:47pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Hey, blame the computer not me. Or have I forgotten that computers never make mistakes? You should get into the discussion btw, Nick. -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/29 6:04pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	First thing's first: Incessant flattery... don't do it. try imagining a school that has been in existence for the same length of time that we went from being furry hominids to being able to travel into space - that's how long that school has been developing and expanding in thought. Seriously, try to fathom it. Do you have it? That's immense. That's why I said it's a tad redundant for it to be completely wrong. It's also a tad presumptuous for the Jedi of the NJO to discard it's teaching aside and "suddenly realize that using both sides of the Force is the way to true power and understanding". Ok, let's break this down. 1) Everyone's got a theory, and a few of them have book deals. This whole thing is a clusterfrag caused by contradicting authors with their own various ideas on what happened/what should, which is why the NJO went from "light side do-gooders" to "Potentium do-gooders" to "light side, but let's step back a bit" within the space of about 25 years of in-universe time. In its defense, they're trying to rebuild the Jedi Order after the Empire did its damndest to stomp it out, so it's wild guesswork that results in revisions whenever something new is publishe... er... unearthed (After Episode III comes out... R2-D2: Hey Luke, for the past fifty years I've been carrying around a hologram of your father choking your mother to death. Now's as good a time as any to show it to you!). 2) Canonically, the Star Wars Universe has some of the worst engineers known to civilization. 4000 years of innovation, right here. (Which, incidentally, is the time it took for us to go from the Bronze age to whatever the heck we're in now). So, I'm not exactly sure if you can make the argument that time and development flow the same way there that they do here. 3) I'm not sure how much the Jedi Order has changed. While I know they've changed in their roles in the galaxy, their beliefs do not seem to have changed an incredible amount. This may be proof that they've been tested again and again and stood strong all these years. Or it may be proof that they are not tested enough, as I've got a quote from the Power of the Jedi book on the subject of the Potentium Heresy.. "being a Jedi is not about exploring the limits of the Force, but about using what is already known to protect peace and justice. Jedi students should concentrate on learning how to use the Force, and leave careful exploration to the Jedi Masters". Some might use this as evidence that the Jedi are incapable of changing their ways because the only people who examine their philosophies intently are the ones who have attuned themselves to it, and and are thus blinded by it. Given the fact that they told Leor Hal and his disciples to leave the Order, you might say that there's not much room for debate on some areas. This could be seen as either the Jedi Order repressing any independent thought so that the truth wouldn't come out and undermine their power base, or the fact that Potentium users tend to do extremely stupid things and fall with alarming regularity. 4) I never said it was wrong, I simply said that its sheer age is by no means a way to assume that the Jedi view on the correct or incorrect. It is probably internally consistent if it has been tested all these millenia, but there's not really a way to prove that they are right about some fundamental intangible thing in the universe that may be altered by a person's state of mind. You could say something like "it's strange for the New Jedi Order to discard a philosophy that has worked for several thousand years", but you can't really make any claims about the validity of the philosophy (unless you know of some sort of test that can irrefutably prove that there is or isn't a Light Side and a Dark Side). Furthermore, even if they were wrong and the Force really didn't care, they could still have gone on doing the same things, doing the right thing for the wrong reason, relentlessly pursuing a non-existent Light Side. Of course, Lucas backs their beliefs, so they are correct, but the age of the Order doesn't prove it. Ok, moving on. But yeah, there is evidence for the fact that emotions tie directly into use of the Force - it's the trigger... the Force is emotion and thought transmuted into action. The fact that we see it in the movies and such makes that kind of thing obvious though. Also, Dooku used anger to utilize the Dark side, but you can't always see a person's anger from outward expression, remember? Not necessarily. Don't the Jedi consider themselves servants to the Force rather than the other way around? At least part of a Jedi's abilities seem to come from awareness and reaction to the outside rather than being motivated by any internal factors. Besides, the fact that you can't tell Dooku's emotions from his outward expression shows that either he's incapable of making expressions, or (more likely) he's capable of exercising control over his emotions and while listening to an old man cackle "give into your hate" may be one method of tapping the Dark Side, it's not necessarily the only one. To be honest, I'm not completely, but I've done some deep study concerning the Force for years when I was bored out of my mind, and I'm pretty sure about this theory... There is a way to, a kind, of unlimited power in the Force I did realize after a long time, but no one has figured it out yet or even gotten close. This should be... interesting. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Saintheart Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/29 6:25pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Anyways, your conjecture about there being power in picking a side probably requires some sort of evidence/examples to elevate this claim above a mere thought experiment. I suppose you could use the video games, as KotOR had a specific mechanical system wherein your alignment determined the cost of powers, where leaning towards one side made its powers cheaper (I don't remember if it was more effective, though if it was, it might be a decent start for a claim), while doing the reverse for the other (and going totally to one side blocked off the powers for the other). Meanwhile, in Jedi Outcast, Kyle could use "light" and "dark" powers, but there didn't seem to be any changes in cost/power (does this mean he's in the middle of the alignment scheme?). Meh, the increase in powers during video games are designed primarily to grant a sense of advancement and progress as you complete missions, not because they represent anything about the philosophy of the system or how it actually works. At best they'd be a low grade of canon for this exercise, IMHHO. There does seem to be some sort of indicator that emotions may have some effect on strength/presence, as we can watch RotJ and see Luke flip out and start beating back one of the most powerful men in the galaxy after said man threatens his sister (though Palpatine may have had some hand in this thing, he seemed to have some degree of proficiency in a weird Sith form of Battle Meditation, according to the Thrawn trilogy). Similarly, you could argue that there's some evidence where calmness and serenity seem to lend some degree of strength, as Yoda and other masters seem to do best when they're completely calm. Then again, Dooku seemed to be pretty relaxed during most of his fights, so if he was calling on the Dark Side, it doesn't seem like he had to be in a surge of passion. Of course, you could argue that both of these things are intrinsic to the user and not any indicator that there's a light or dark side, but rather that being calm allows you to make intelligent decisions while being enraged allows you to bring everything to bear on one target or something. Not sure if I'm helping or hindering the debate, but if we go back to the movies the development of emotion as a gateway to the Light or Dark Side seems to have principally come from Yoda in ESB first. Obi-Wan Kenobi doesn't talk about particular emotional states powering the Force; he only goes as far as:- Obi-Wan: The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, it penetrates us, it binds the galaxy together. Obi-Wan: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him. Luke: You mean it controls your actions? Obi-Wan: Partially. But it also obeys your demands. Obi-Wan: I suggest you try it again, Luke. But this time let go your conscious self, and act on instinct. Obi-Wan: Stretch out with your feelings! The only reference we get to the Dark Side of the Force in that context is how Obi-Wan speaks of Vader as being "seduced" by it. As I said, it's Yoda who talks about emotions in relation to the Force: Yoda: Yes, yes! A Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware of the Dark Side. Anger, fear, aggression, the Dark Side of the Force are they -- quick to join in a fight. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will -- as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice ... Luke: ... Vader. Is the Dark Side stronger? Yoda: No! No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive. Luke: But how am I to know the good side from the bad? Yoda: You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence -- never for attack. (At which point you can raise the issue that in just about every lightsaber duel in the movie, it's a Jedi who ignites his lightsaber first, but oh well...) From these I think it's somewhat clear that emotions are only gatekeepers to the different sides of the Force -- they don't power the Light or Dark Side. IMHHO Yoda seems to be suggesting that calm allows for better discernment between that body of techniques and applications that are the province of the Light Side, while anger, fear and aggression make it that much harder to resist those that lead one down the path of the Dark, but they don't power it. One can also see this from Palpatine, Dooku, and Darth Maul's conduct during the movies: you never see these guys going off their nuts during fights -- quite the opposite, they're outwardly in control the whole time. Sure, most of them look pretty scowly, but they don't fly into the howling rage Luke does during ROTJ. Palpatine even does a passable Joker impression during his fight with Yoda, so I doubt you have to be in a state of high emotion to access the UberPowers of Teh Force. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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LightWarden Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 5/29 7:33pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Meh, the increase in powers during video games are designed primarily to grant a sense of advancement and progress as you complete missions, not because they represent anything about the philosophy of the system or how it actually works. At best they'd be a low grade of canon for this exercise, IMHHO. Never said it was, it was just the closest thing I could think of to something where picking a side had some measurable effect, since there isn't anything else I can think of. (At which point you can raise the issue that in just about every lightsaber duel in the movie, it's a Jedi who ignites his lightsaber first, but oh well...) I'd cut them some slack given that it's their primary means of defense against nearly every weapon in the galaxy. If they lit the saber and jumped their opponent, then we'd have a problem. From these I think it's somewhat clear that emotions are only gatekeepers to the different sides of the Force -- they don't power the Light or Dark Side. IMHHO Yoda seems to be suggesting that calm allows for better discernment between that body of techniques and applications that are the province of the Light Side, while anger, fear and aggression make it that much harder to resist those that lead one down the path of the Dark, but they don't power it. Not disagreeing, there just seemed to be some differences between what we see in the movies, and the conjecture put forth in the opening post... "They believed that mastery of their passions gave them strength the Jedi lacked. Such emotions seemed to increase the strength and abilities of a user of the dark side, providing a path towards personal power and the destruction or control of all opposition." The wording kind of implies that a surge of emotion is better than controlled emotions, so there may need to be clarification if we're to use this stuff for the basis of an argument. Though when Obi-Wan said "stretch out with your feelings", I think he meant something that wasn't thought, not stretch out with your emotions. I think we can all agree that Jedi are ideally supposed to be serene and at peace when using the Force, though whether it means you can't use the Light Side without it or you make very un-Jedi decisions without it is up for discussion. -----signature----- CDG Guild Master Strange how one small thing can determine the fate of so many... especially if it's a twenty-sided die The Internet is SERIOUS BIZNESS! It's all fun and games until someone loses a leg. TF.N RPGs: Less fun than pretending to have sex
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Saintheart Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 5/29 8:00pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Not disagreeing, there just seemed to be some differences between what we see in the movies, and the conjecture put forth in the opening post... "They believed that mastery of their passions gave them strength the Jedi lacked. Such emotions seemed to increase the strength and abilities of a user of the dark side, providing a path towards personal power and the destruction or control of all opposition." The wording kind of implies that a surge of emotion is better than controlled emotions, so there may need to be clarification if we're to use this stuff for the basis of an argument. If one goes by Stover's ROTS and then Lucerno's "Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader" I think there's a distinct misconception about how the Dark Side worked. In the ROTS novel, after Anakin's done his flip-flop to the Dark Side, Palpatine is teaching him a Sith technique which is described as "the first key to the power of the Sith" -- and that technique is principally cold detachment from one's emotions, not wallowing in them. In Lucerno's novel, Palpatine is musing about how Vader has to get past his preoccupations with the Jedi before he can really begin his Sith training, which again suggests getting past the base emotions. And there are other sources that suggest real keys to Sith power don't include much emotion at all. As has been pointed out, the novels are such a mishmash of conflicting ideas it's hard to draw any consistency of philosophy from any two of them, but these two seem to support the idea that emotion doesn't give you access to the full power of the Force. Emotion is only a guidepost. After all, it's Palpatine who muses (in this case, I think, telling the truth) that the Sith and Jedi are alike in almost every way...including disposing with emotion since it's only a gateway and eventually a positive impediment to effective Force use. Though when Obi-Wan said "stretch out with your feelings", I think he meant something that wasn't thought, not stretch out with your emotions. I think we can all agree that Jedi are ideally supposed to be serene and at peace when using the Force, though whether it means you can't use the Light Side without it or you make very un-Jedi decisions without it is up for discussion. Agreed. The context of the conversation was that Luke had to act on his instincts, so Ben wasn't talking about emotion per se. -----signature----- Michelle: my Italian queen, my angel, my reason, my wife. Jessica: my little princess, my daughter, born 10 August 2007 Director -- Star Wars: Knighthood
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SaddhaQinntara Registered: May '08	Date Posted: 5/30 11:00am Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Wow, very, very interesting indeed. And LightWarden, If I happen to say that your very smart, it's because I mean it. I don't often say things that I don't mean. Anyway, you've done a fantastic job thus far of holding a really intelligent conversation with me - your going straight for the issues and hitting them the way they need to be hit. Some people aren't intelligent enough, or know they aren't and start avoiding questions or attach themselves to irrelevant things like grammical errors in the other guy's post and such. So your doing a fine job. 1) Everyone's got a theory, and a few of them have book deals. This whole thing is a clusterfrag caused by contradicting authors with their own various ideas on what happened/what should, which is why the NJO went from "light side do-gooders" to "Potentium do-gooders" to "light side, but let's step back a bit" within the space of about 25 years of in-universe time. In its defense, they're trying to rebuild the Jedi Order after the Empire did its damndest to stomp it out, so it's wild guesswork that results in revisions whenever something new is publishe... er... unearthed (After Episode III comes out... R2-D2: Hey Luke, for the past fifty years I've been carrying around a hologram of your father choking your mother to death. Now's as good a time as any to show it to you!). LOL! No kidding! I thought it was so silly to see R2 finally show Luke that Hologram when he could have told him so much sooner. One other thing I forgot to mention in my other post is that you mentioned how stupid it was that Midi-chlorians basically turned Star Wars into DBZ. I laughed when I read that because one of my best friends said the same thing when we talked about TPM once. To quote: "It's so frickin' stupid. Now they've just turned Star Wars into DBZ. I'm surprised Obi-Wan and Qui-gon didn't read Anakin's blood-sample on a Scouter!" Yeah really, like we didn't see Obi-Wan exclaim, "One-thousand...no two-thousand!...Oh no, It's higher than Master Yoda's! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE!!!" But seriously, it was a good thing to point out. We can definitely tell that technological progression in Star Wars is a little slow for some reason. When I described the time span for the Jedi Order's existence before the Great Purge and compared it to our evolution from Monkey-related creatures to present day Human beings, I did so because that time span is amazing. If you really think about it, it would be almost impossible for a major religion like that to not have any of it's views altered significantly at any time during it's existence If they weren't true in some way or form. But as you said, they must have done something right to be around like that for that long. 3) I'm not sure how much the Jedi Order has changed. While I know they've changed in their roles in the galaxy, their beliefs do not seem to have changed an incredible amount. This may be proof that they've been tested again and again and stood strong all these years. Or it may be proof that they are not tested enough, as I've got a quote from the Power of the Jedi book on the subject of the Potentium Heresy.. "being a Jedi is not about exploring the limits of the Force, but about using what is already known to protect peace and justice. Jedi students should concentrate on learning how to use the Force, and leave careful exploration to the Jedi Masters". Some might use this as evidence that the Jedi are incapable of changing their ways because the only people who examine their philosophies intently are the ones who have attuned themselves to it, and and are thus blinded by it. Given the fact that they told Leor Hal and his disciples to leave the Order, you might say that there's not much room for debate on some areas. This could be seen as either the Jedi Order repressing any independent thought so that the truth wouldn't come out and undermine their power base, or the fact that Potentium users tend to do extremely stupid things and fall with alarming regularity. The Jedi Order has changed a lot, pal. I think by the time that I started reading the first NJO books I was surprised that there were only a few hundred Jedi in the galaxy. Surely in two decades you could produce just a tad more? I remember reading the Jedi Search books, and saw how Luke established his Jedi Praxeum on Yavin 4. I wasn't sure how to feel about the whole thing because I saw Luke basically taking his students into the Temple and teaching them the basics of the Force, which was good, basics are always key, but it never progressed beyond anything that a five-year old would learn in the earlier Order. He kept teaching them obvious things they already knew how to do, like sense the Force around them, and then gave them a crash-course on baseball batting-practice with a lightsaber. And before I go into that specifically, I still have to say how utterly stupid it was that Luke didn't teach his students, or at least tell them about setting their lightsabers onto a lower power-level when training. That had to have been basic knowledge imparted onto him by Obi-Wan during his training segments onboard the Falcon. But Jacen Solo cut off Tenel Ka's arm anyway...because he was a mongoloid I suppose. Absolutely stupid...but anyway. It didn't feel good that Luke was spreading his questionable skills in swordsmanship onto his other students. Luke always seemed to be a tad over-commitive with a sword and swung it around like a baseball bat, so it seemed that along with only the most partial of knowledge on the Force, the newest incarnation of the Jedi Order would also inherit the bad habits and flaws presented in the lightsaber techniques of Master Skywalker. I mean, he swings the thing around like a blindfolded kid at a piñata party. Then came Outcast and Academy. Things got more interesting (game canon aside, I'm speaking from an in-universe manner here) The three styles were developed and implemented upon the fledging new Order. The movements were very flashy with a whole lot of unnecessary acrobatics. What got me though was, as a former student of Kendo, the first thing ingrained into me was knowledge of body zones and just how much a person truly exposed when they decided to swing their sword around. The movements used in the three new styles were atrociously errornas. Every time my character would swing the lightsaber around, I'd almost wince and think, "Holy crap he looks over-exposed there...) (too many) Chudan Drills ingrained that kind of quirky reaction in me. I came to find that the Fast, Medium and Strong Styles were basically sword styles created to poorly mimic the dynamic choreography seen in Episode 1. They had no substance or real technique inherent in them and were all flash. The sword Forms of the previous Order however were developed with some flash but overall had very real technique and form within them due to the fact that they were deliberately created that way by two licensed and very qualified swordmasters in Nick Gillard and Peter Diamond. So basically, the members of the Jedi Order now used half-gleaned knowledge wantonly and flipped around all over the place swinging their lightsabers any way they pleased, regardless of how much it would actually help in a fight or not. By the time it got to the NJO book series, the Order still hadn't grown too much and also had none of the internal order that had been present within the earlier incarnation. That's understandable given the incomparable time spans of the two. Anyway, more decades have passed and now the Jedi Order has kind of decided that the doctrines of the Force which the true Order before had studied were apparently wrong, for twenty-five millennia. They decided, "Oh well. Who cares what the other Order had thought, they have nothing on us. Let's just completely change around the curriculum and toss everything they worked so hard to create and foster out the window." So yeah, they've changed. But hopefully, hopefully I'm wrong about some of what I said. Hopefully it's all wrong. If It is, I'd love to hear about it. Not necessarily. Don't the Jedi consider themselves servants to the Force rather than the other way around? At least part of a Jedi's abilities seem to come from awareness and reaction to the outside rather than being motivated by any internal factors. True. But Awareness and reaction are internal factors. Besides, the fact that you can't tell Dooku's emotions from his outward expression shows that either he's incapable of making expressions, or (more likely) he's capable of exercising control over his emotions and while listening to an old man cackle "give into your hate" may be one method of tapping the Dark Side, it's not necessarily the only one. He exercises control, but when I look at his eyes in the movies, I see anger. Not a whole lot of it, but just enough to tell me what the character might be feeling. That might be my opinion, but the very first thing you learn in Kendo is that your opponent’s eyes are the mirror of his soul, and you watch your opponents eyes to glean his true intentions. Everything on the outside, all that calm, can just be a mask. This should be... interesting. With a formidable verbal opponent like yourself, I wouldn't doubt it. Do you mind If I respond to some of Saintheart's posts? They were good too. From these I think it's somewhat clear that emotions are only gatekeepers to the different sides of the Force -- they don't power the Light or Dark Side. IMHHO Yoda seems to be suggesting that calm allows for better discernment between that body of techniques and applications that are the province of the Light Side, while anger, fear and aggression make it that much harder to resist those that lead one down the path of the Dark, but they don't power it. One can also see this from Palpatine, Dooku, and Darth Maul's conduct during the movies: you never see these guys going off their nuts during fights -- quite the opposite, they're outwardly in control the whole time. Sure, most of them look pretty scowly, but they don't fly into the howling rage Luke does during ROTJ. Palpatine even does a passable Joker impression during his fight with Yoda, so I doubt you have to be in a state of high emotion to access the UberPowers of Teh Force. Good points, Saintheart. I didn't mean that that emotions power the Force though, the Force powers itself, but a person uses emotion as the trigger and even tranquility or compassion as espoused by the Jedi is an emotion of sorts...which makes it ironic that that one part of the code says, "There is no emotion..." But eh, I think that's just a guideline, ne? but they don't fly into the howling rage Luke does during ROTJ Except when Sidious did that in the beginning of the duel in his office. I could be wrong about him being very enraged, but he did howl. And please correct me If I'm wrong, but didn't Ganner Rhysode and Jacen Solo climb into a state of high emotion before they experienced Oneness with the Force? Respectively, during Ganner's last stand in the Great Rotunda and Jacen's duel with Onimi. Emotion, whether it be tranquil and flowing or explosive and agressive does act as the trigger for the Force for a person. Though, I do agree with you that just how much of a trigger-role this plays in it is indeed questionable. It's another thing we might have to look into. And...back to LightWarden The wording kind of implies that a surge of emotion is better than controlled emotions, so there may need to be clarification if we're to use this stuff for the basis of an argument. Though when Obi-Wan said "stretch out with your feelings", I think he meant something that wasn't thought, not stretch out with your emotions. I think we can all agree that Jedi are ideally supposed to be serene and at peace when using the Force, though whether it means you can't use the Light Side without it or you make very un-Jedi decisions without it is up for discussion. Yeah, hmmm...I think, that you would have to have to be feeling serene and good-natured and calm to tap into the Light side, otherwise you wouldn't be able to tune to its particular frequency. or the fact that Potentium users tend to do extremely stupid things and fall with alarming regularity. Um...yeah, and it would seem that this way of thinking has infected the highly impressionable minds of the New Order. -----signature----- I can use force lightning to jump-start someone's heart and bring them back to life. -MarcusDade
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Sith-I-5 Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 5/30 1:43pm Subject: RE: *** The Not So Black and White of Force Users **
	Very interesting article, Ktala, and thank you to all subsequent contributors for all the differing points and angles. SaddhaQinntara, welcome to the Roleplaying Forum; hope you enjoy your time with us. Having a Force-using main character who is not any shade of jedi, I appreciate the existence of an article that does not limit itself to just Lightsided Jedi and the red lightsabre brigade (Sith). -----signature----- “So what kind of quad-lasers has this thing got?” Stobb pressed, “Golan Arms or Taim & Bak KT-6s?” “Leave me alooone.” The pilot sobbed, “I didn’t build the sodding thing. I press a button, green light shoots out.” 007 family - DVC's twin bro'
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