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Author	Topic: Trek in Decay...
Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 8/31/03 2:16pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Before I type my next rebutal, I want to make it clear that I love Star Wars, and grew up with it like everyone else under the age of 50, but I think the new trilogy focuses way too much on action and CGI rather than good story and dialogue. I never said they would actually sing "Row your Boat" in Star Wars. I'm not an idiot. What I meant was that they would never take a full 5 minutes of screen time just for a casual and humorous interaction between characters that develops no plot at all. If you are a Star Wars fan, you should know this, because it's all about plot and journey with SW, and Star Trek isn't. It's about people in space. I think the writers of the new Trek films need to realize this themselves. And as for that scene where ANakin rides the big cow like creature in AOTC? That can't even count as a moment of comedic relief because it lasts for 2 seconds on screen, and everyone I saw it in the theater with laughed at it, not with it. And since we aren't using intelligent wording here, I'm going to say that it was retarded! As far as you not wanting to care for any Trek characters, I guess that's a matter of personal preference or else you are so die hard SW loyal, that you won't allow yourself to like them. There's no reason to think they are lame, because there is so much great drama in it. Don't bash on the whales man! I thought that was a really thoughtful idea that brought forth issues that were concurrent to today's problems. Besides, Trek has covered 300 times more terrain on the writing front with something like 800 episodes and 12 movies, and countless books. Star Wars has 6 movies and some books. One more thing that pisses me off about the new trilogy. CGI Yoda! I know it was essential for the fight at the end of AOTC, but Yoda's character was defined by the use of the puppet in the original trilogy. When he went CG, he lost a lot of his charm, which sucks. Didn't feel as real anymore. Before you respond, remember we are debating Sci FI, so don't get too flustered.
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 8/31/03 8:31pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay... - Date Edited: 8/31/03 8:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi_Tenken
	Getting flustered is a subjective matter that I doubt anyone can tell over a message board. If I wish to "bash" Trek I will and can, just as you have "bashed" Star Wars, it's a matter of opinion. You may disagree and that's fine, but your view points on what is "retarded" is also highly subjective but you can think what you wish, I don't care. What I do personally care about are digs at me, which could have been by accident or by design. IF that was the case you have no right to tell me what to say or how to say it. However, perhaps our problems are linguistic, perhaps a defense of myself concerning the words I chose to use was rash. However, you want to push you view points on Trek to Star Wars Fans here like a Mormon's pushing Christ to atheist. We'll consider what you have to say, but in general we will reject your analysis because it's subjective to what we consider and know is true. In general you can't tell us that Trek is awesome and Lucas has screwed up "our Star Wars story", because it's HIS story, his way and whether you agree with it or not, so quit your whining and go complain to him or the local Trek contingent. However to defend Lucas (like I even have to but I will anyway because it's about personal pride too) is a visionary. His use of special effect, sound, and even music paved the way to what movies are today. We aren't use to entire CGI terrains and cities like Coruscant, Kamino, Geonosis, etc. Or entirely CGI characters like Jar Jar and now Yoda, but that's what sci fi is! It doesn't really exist but for someone to take a vision of that magnitude and put it to film is first of all amazing, secondly near impossible to have it flow consistently without some sacrifices, and thirdly takes someone who understands the true dynamic of human nature and social construction and beliefs. Your right Star Wars would not waste time to analyze something about one person for 5 minutes and attempt humor. But they don't need to because it's inherent in us already otherwise we can really say we are human. Lucas knows that and his way of getting to us on the human level IS through story and plot, and feelings and emotions in his characters. Not 2 hours of wannabe spoken out loud psychoanalysis of once again lame characters/aliens (gee they all look human with bad make up and things stuck to their heads too me...) and techno babble that's just so obvious of what has to be done to save the Enterprise from destruction for the millionth time. The bottom line is that you've rejected the new Star Wars due to some minor errors in the new trilogy and comparing it to the original in which there is NO comparison! It is the same story in the long run but concerning different events and people in a different time periods in the same galaxy that's not even finished yet. However, I can see how it is easy to just accept the few facts that we think we know and then reject the whole story as a whole because we want to compare the special effects of old with the new. Yes the new prequel is flashiness in its special effects and "lightsaber fighting" but it has to be, it's the prime of the Jedi. Coruscant would have been near insane impossibility to create by models alone, and those other planets (Kamino and Geonosis) would have been technical monstrosity to create sets for as well. Not to mention the many diverse looking aliens, creatures, and species of ALL shape, sizes, and forms that would have looked utterly crap as puppets. Lucas's vision, his story, his saga, and his way. For the most part I agree with his decision and actions but even some parts I don't, and Lucas has made changes accordingly to suit what he wants and the fans want. Oh and personally I think having Yoda work his lightsaber skills was excellent. It shows the apex of Form IV lightsaber combat in all dimensions and totally does not ruin his character. He fought to save lives, as any Jedi will. As a master his defensive Force powers shows the limit of what is it is to counter Sith and the Darkside. It is the balance that is the Force and also shows that age and time is also relative. What did you except that they just talk about how powerful Yoda was and never showed how so blazing amazing he is in actually combat? "I'm looking for a great warrior...", "Great Warrior? Wars not make one great". Lucas rocks for taking that chance and I believe that 1 minute of lightsaber combat was utterly one of the best things I have ever seen. Truly showing personal size, age, and ability is all relative and only matters if you let it matter. The CGI Yoda look so much more fluid and real and not only that they pains takenly recreated the ear twitchiness from the puppet to give him the original Yoda feel, which I thought worked brilliantly. When I look at the Original trilogy I still love Yoda. Episode 1 Yoda looked horrible, and in fact I wouldn't mind if they went back and replaced Episode 1 Yoda with CGI Yoda, which they experimented on at the end of Episode 1, which looked choppy and inaccurate. ILM has come a long way and I think Episode III is going to blow everyone away in every aspect. But yes people have no patience... But that's why Lucas is taking every three years, he's still creating it and wants things to be quality for the final chapters of the Star Wars saga. -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 8/31/03 9:39pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Dude, that was an intense rebutal you just posted! It would be cool if someone else joined in on this debate. Anyway, why are you preaching to me about my subjective opinions when your entire post is subjective? I never doubted that Star Wars is Lucas's creation, and he can do what he wants, but a lot of people will agree that, for them, the new trilogy has lost some charm. Ask anybody what their favorite moments are from the new trilogy, and 90% of them will say either The Darth Maul fight or the Yoda fight. All that stands out anymore is the action scenes, which are great of course, but there is a huge lack of memorable moments that the original trilogy is full of. There is also a big lack of stand out characters, although there are exceptions. It seems that the original trilogy is entireable quotable, while with the new, you have to dig for a memorable line. This isn't just my subjective opinion by the way. Almost all people I know, even huge Star Wars fans, feel this way. I'm sure you know some of them. You've written a few things that make it look like I said things I never did. Be careful about that. Like the stuff about CGI? The only thing I mentioned was Yoda. What made him so fun to watch in ESB was that he was a puppet. He seemed real, like you could reach out and touch him. They didn't even come close to it with the CG version, despite the ear wiggle, that wasn't even a big deal. I have a feeling you haven't watched much of the original Trek series or TNG, or you wouldn't call every character on there lame. Too much techno babble? yeah, you obviously haven't watched much of the original. For me, after Roddenberry died, Trek went down hill, so I don't give a crap about Voyager or Ds9. So you think Trek's science and premise is fake? If that's a point you will use in this argument, than why are you even debating? SW is beyond fake! A lot of their technology were ideas ripped from Trek anyway. Warp speed = light speed. And how can you not like Spock? Come on man, give in!!!
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 8/31/03 11:48pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay... - Date Edited: 9/1/03 12:04am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi_Tenken
	"oh come on man, give in" spoken likes a true person who wants to change people, just like the Mormons... lol… Even if you try to convert people here, the people here know it's so flawed especially in a SW forum (a poorly chosen battle feild in the first place but your funeral). If this was religion then I'd say you've already defiled a sacred land and you should be ejected for blasphemy but it's not, in a sense, lol, so it's fine you continue your flawed analysis, it’s actually funny. Not once have I actively tried to change your mind concerning Trek because as I said I don't care about your opinions because I have seen for myself the original Trek series and beyond that because I know what I like and don’t. For you to tell me what I should like and don't is wrong and utter crap since I have actively chosen to see everything as well. If I do actively refute your statements then I've sworn that I’d know enough of an enemy to be able to crush them if necessary like a tin can and will do so here, because now I have good reason to do so and I can use the practice. I therefore choose to champion Star Wars as my duty as a loyal fan who knows the saga inside and out, in nearly every aspects. You have not defended the statement of Treks techno babble issue but I will happily defend anything you wish to throw at Star Wars concerning lightsaber technology, hyperspace (which is NOT warp, and if you really did know Trek you'd know what I'm talking about already, which has already shown the flaw in your subjective arguments), starfighters, ships, designs, planets, or anything else. For example let's take your "argument" concerning lightspeed and it was ripped from Trek, which is utter bull. They are two completely different concepts and it obvious your analysis isn't even on par with my own with that statement, so prepare to eat your words. In Trek the have this concept of "warp" which is NOT lightspeed. Warp in Trek terms is actually the ability to alter the space around the vessel to travel past "lightspeed" in order to get to other places. In that sense they "warp" the space around them, after establishing a "warp field" which is further crap. If that's the case the ability to go to "warp" should never interfere with the structural integrity of a ship itself since it's the space around them that's supposedly solely affected. Yet they've already messed up this idea concerning warp in TNG since no ship can go beyond warp 10 for an extended period of time without falling apart. In that sense they've also messed up the entire ability to travel through "space" when in fact space and even objects pass them only and they stay still, which is ludicrous. Now as for the concept of hyperspace, which a lot of other sci-fi has been ripped from Star Wars (I wonder why? Hmmm because it's a better concept maybe?) such as Babylon 5, and even Gene Rodenberry's own creation "Andromeda" with "slip stream" technology, which is a weirder version of wannabe hyperspace. All ships that are light speed capable in Star Wars are given a specific rating. Han Solo's craft the Millennium Falcon has a rating of .5 pass the Big L (Spacer slang for lightspeed). However, due to the delineation of time from Einstein’s theory of relativity a ship in lightspeed time will slow down while everything else remains constant. Thus "the twins paradox". To counter this, hyperspace is a dimension where outer relative time remains in sync with those in the ship while in hyperspace. Otherwise people on a planet would be long dead even before a ship could return after a Kessel Run or something and only the descendants would be left. A hyperdrive motivator is used in order to propel a ship into or passed lightspeed at pre-calculated hyperspace jump along hyperspace nav routes that have been mapped over eons during the Old Republic and are normally in putted in to standard ship Navicomputers. Naturally stars, black holes, planets, and other heavenly bodies present a hyperspace gravitation mass shadow that exert on ships and thus hyperdrives have a preset cut off to stop a ship from "flying into a star or bouncing too close to a super nova" thus calculation for hyperspace jumps are necessary and usually take 2-5 jumps to get to specific locations unless the system is close by "The Rebels are mustering near Sullust" and one jump would get them there. One more thing the hyperdrive also has a secondary rating concerning a hyperdrive multiplier which is actually counter intuitive in which .6 (the Pulsar Skates hyperdrive rating in X-wing Rogue Squadron) is actually slower that .5 like the Falcon "the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy". However, fuel constrains while in hyperspace are negligible since a ship would just need to reach hyperspace and coast while a starfighter battle and maneuvering consumes much more fuel with turns and evasive maneuvers while using sublight engines. Now to me that makes so much more sense because they calculate and have ratings, and take into consideration things like mass, gravity, and the laws of physics! Why else would other sci-fi like Babylon 5 adopt jump points and hyperspace as well? Well duh! It makes more sense... It makes MORE sense and even if it is "fake" is less fact than "warping" all reality around you to have a spatial object like Trek ships get to one place or another and in fact it's slower than hyperspace by their own admission. In fact come to think of it TNG and Voyager ripped hyperspace from Star Wars with that Borg manifestation of "trans warp conduits" aka hyperspace (the tunnel etc...), which was faster than warp. Now who's ripping who? As I said if you choose to talk and "refute" me then you better be able to bring everything you got and so far you have brought your whining and well... nothing much else. This also means that Star Wars ships are faster because unlike Trek who has mapped a quarter of their defunked galaxy in the "alpha quadrant". The Star Wars galaxy has been there, done that, got the t-shirt. "Look kid, I've flown from one end of the galaxy to the other..." Oh and if you even decide to bring up why I know so much concerning Trek's own technical bull, let me kill your argument here and now. It's because I like to know my opposition. Only a fool would go into a battle not knowing the enemy, whether they attack or not is up to them but then again that depends on the logistical observations and capabilities of the enemy themselves. So when I say Trek is lesser and is crap at all angles of the spectrum which has fallen off the main stream, I mean every word of it because I do know and understand and I still think it's a big steaming stinking load of bantha dung, AND that is with an objective point of view. When I say I still have utter faith in Lucas it's not because of being a "die hard". It's because every aspect of the Star Wars Galaxy is reflective in our own culture as well. Lucas know this, feels this, and has his hand on the pulse of what it is to understand ourselves in the aspect of human nature. Even Gene Roddenberry has said he was always jealous of Lucas and the success of Star Wars (Matt I think you mentioned this maybe? Let me know) and now the people he left Trek to have even begun to rip from the SW universe, which is a total mistake since you said yourself they are too different and is like mixing matter and antimatter. thus you end up in this decaying dead series known as Star Trek. Looks like the Trek will be stopping and it's about time. If you want to blame us for the Trek series falling off go ahead, but calling us bastards, and telling us to "come on, give in" is not going to change our minds over anything. I think you should stand down now before you make a further embarrassing refutements here claiming I don't know what I'm talking about. I'll take CGI Jar Jar any day over any LAME species Trek has to offer which OMG all look human with crap on their face! (and yeah I know there was a TNG episode that "explains" the whole species DNA BS and yet, once again as a scientist in the school of biotech is also a heaping piling of bantha dung once again...). Hell Babylon 5 had a better explanation for life in the universe! Which actually was somewhat similar to SW but with an interesting twist. So? Are you actually going to give me a challenge or would you like to stand down now? -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 12:10am Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Oh yes, Spock, I forgot to answer that, to make a long story short: Spock is a dork, an emotionless, green blooded, pointy eared freak. Oh yeah... such a social comentary on human nature there, no emotions. Riiiiiiiiight... -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/1/03 1:42am Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	This is fun, huh? Ha! I like how you only debated the last 3 sentences in my last post and turned them into a huge scientific analysis of Trek and Wars technology, and then tried to use that as if it would hurt my argument! That must mean that you agree with me on everything else I said before that. I never came into this wanting to debate anything technical about the Trek and Wars worlds. Unlike you, I have not studied the indepth, yet "fake", technologies that both of these great Sci-Fi fantasies have to offer. As far as that part goes, I bow to you in your nerddom! I came into this wanting to defend the good things Trek has and point out the faults of the new Star Wars trilogy. And boy are there a lot! You want to rip on Spock and the Vulcans, eh? How can you not find them the least bit interesting? Vulcans live soley by the one thing that sets humans apart from the rest of the animals. Logic and intelligence. These are the driving forces that have created what human man knows as "civilization". But people have always hated the bad things brought on by emotion (violence, depression, etc) and have wondered what it would be like to not to live with these attributes. But when we see the Vulcans, we realize how essential it is, as humans, to embrace both intelligence, and primal emotion. Therefore, the Vulcan race is a very neat and simple idea, and there should be no reason to bash on them. You want to rip on characters? Actually, there aren't really any characters I dislike in Star Wars. I even like Jar Jar a little bit. The characters just aren't there in the new trilogy. You look at Obi Wan from "A New Hope" and he you get a sense of depth from the man because you learn of his exciting past, and see the subtle nuances of his character, like his interactions with Chewie and Han. Then you compare him with Qui Gon Jin, who wasn't bad, but all he did was spout wannabe Zen like philosophy the whole time, and act really "wise". He was totally flat in his qualities. Even a Jedi Knight needs some flair, or eccentricities to him to make him interesting. Of course, he was given lots of saber action so he seemed "cool". You want more? Bring it!!! Live Long and Prosper.
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SRB_Jedi_Knight Title: RSA Emeritus OCSWS Founder Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 9/1/03 2:00am Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	I understand the passion with which the 2 parties are debating. However I would like to interject a friendly reminder to please keep this civil. I have read through everything from all parties and I feel it's very close "exploding" in here. With that said let me add my $0.02. One of the main things which has been argued more times than I can think of is the difference between the 2 franchises. We must keep in mind that they are very different. Star Trek is definitely Sci-Fi through and through. It is very technical in what it does and provoking our thought about possibilities of our own future in the vastness of space. Because of this it Sci-Fi at it's core. Star Wars on the other hand is a bit different. Yes it is technical in the way that they have explain how things can happen. It seems very possible with all the calculations as posted before. Because of that it is very science orientated, very much Sci-Fi. However one of the things which Star Wars has that sets it apart from Star Trek is that it is a work of Fantasy through and through. It is modern day epic mythology. This is one of the things which draws people to it. Much like Lord of the Rings draws many fans and followers. It's the epic battle of good vs. evil, and redemption from ones past which makes this truly greater than any other modern day story to date. Yes ST does have some good against evil, but it's not epic in any way. Both franchises will continue to be loved by their fans. They are loved for different reasons though, at least in my opinion. -----signature----- OC Fan Force meeting 2nd Sun each month visit: www.ocstarwars.com
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Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/1/03 3:18pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	All along I mentioned that they were very different, and practically incomparable. I totally agree with the point you made. Although, I do think that Trek was a lot more fantasy based in it's earlier years than people give credit. There was much more of a magic and adventurous feel to it. As Voyager and DS9 came along, it became pure techno babble. Crap! Don't worry about making this hostile. If Tenken takes the things I'm saying personally, than he needs to chill. I'm here for good ol' debatin'!
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 6:12pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay... - Date Edited: 9/1/03 6:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jedi_Tenken
	Then in the case, we should cut this "debate" short because it's no me here who's not "chill". As I said I could care less for what you have to say but I will defend Star Wars and myself. If your gonna point fingers here that's just childish and I never started anything here by calling everyone "bastards" or being a "nerd". As I said you have no right to judge in that respect. One more thing, my ability to recall and recite even "fake" logistical information that maybe relevant to a scenario is actually one of my greatest assets. If that makes me a "nerd" then so be it. What I'm saying is that your have no right to judge me or others without rebuttal. -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/1/03 7:58pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Take a joke Tenken. I'm a nerd myself. I love fantasy, LOTR, Trek whatever. It;s awesome! Happy Birthday by the way.
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 9/1/03 10:50pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Can't tell on the board here should be taken as a joke sometimes, since it wasn't funny. However, I apologize for the long long counters. I'm as precise and accurate as possible. Scary ain't it? Gotta watch for that... Anywho, no hard feelings and there no use in beating a dead bantha anyway so I'm dropping the subject. Thanks for the b-day wishes. -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Harlock415 Title: SFFF VIP Very Important Pirate Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 9/3/03 10:20am Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Folks, in the immortal words if William Shatner; "It's just a TV show!' And Star Wars is just a movies series. I don't debate Star Wars and Star Trek. There is nothing to compare. I don't compare Tolkien to James Joyce. They have nothing to do with each other. We don't debate the Star Wars series with the Bond series do we, or Dr. Who? As far as Trek dying, I think that it can be blamed on the brain of Rick Berman. He took Star Trek and turned it into a sci-fi show no different from Lost in Space or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea. To me Trek is Science Fiction, and witgh over 30 years of science fiction in my background, I think I speak with a little more clarity. Star Was is one of the most entertaining and succesful movie series of all time. But even it has it's flaws, especially lately. It may be possible that in 10 years, people will be crying over the death of Star Wars, especially, if Lucas really does plan on ending the Saga with episode III. So what will Star Wars fans have left supposedly? Six movies and a lot of toys. I will not count the books for either series. Now, we will all agee that the Star Wars movies have had bad moments. And we all agree that the Star Trek franchise has had bad moments. (In the case of Enterprise, a bad seies.) But if you look at the voume of Trek out there, it stands up batter than many other entertainment franchises. -----signature----- There's good in the Original Trilogy, and it's worth fighting for! "Some men see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not."
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Jedi_Tenken Title: SFFF VIP Jedi Guardian of SFFF Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 9/4/03 12:03am Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	Actually I think LOTR wins that race thus far because that is truely the oldest and currently influential franchise in main stream media. Treks not standing anymore and is well in decay as afore mentioned. SW is definetly in the fight and I disagree about the books. They're linear and make sense, they don't skip around to 20 different adventures that have nothing to do with one another and has a flowing story arc and timeline. The New Jedi Order will end yes, but I must say the best book I have read thus far EVER is "Traitor". It's been a big inspiration actually. Anyway, in the words of Jedi Master Bodo Baas "Many great battles yet to come, many trials, and many tests... Even though men can forget it's name the Force can never die..." (Dark Empire II) -----signature----- The impossible is what we do best... Rogue Leader of The New Republic Starfighter Command Rogue Squadron General Ming S. Pan "No surrender, no retreat, that is Spartan Law..." "Give thanks men! To bold Leonidas and his 300! TO VICTORY!"
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Toranaga81 Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 9/8/03 6:50pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	I did forget to mention a couple things that Lucas ripped from Trek. Cloaking Devices? Shields? and how about photon torpedoes????? Lucas even admits his heavy influence from Trek. Therefore, Wars would not be what it is without Trek.
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Rogue6 Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 9/8/03 10:05pm Subject: RE: Trek in Decay...
	THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THREAD I HAVE EVER READ ON THESE BOARDS!!!!!!!!!! Toranga81, I agree with much of what you have said regarding Trek and SW. JT, my friend, I too agree with your pts of view, but as we've talked about before, YOU TYPE TOO MUCH!!!! Your thoroughness should be commended however, as I know you are a 'die hard' and pride yourself for knowing far too much about certain things. However, much of this 'debate' may have been unnecessary if some of the statements weren't made/or taken personally. This is very entertaining, so I better put in my 2 cents. I am a child of both ST and SW. As JT knows, I am a big fan of SW and he also knows my interest with ST. While I respect JT's 'dislike' for ST, he does his best to respect my views on ST. So to read this 'debate' about the two is something else. There is a lot of truth to what everyone has said in regards to ST and SW, characters, mythology, storyline etc. What needs to be understood is that while it may be fun to 'debate' and argue both sides, they are two entire different story's with certain similarities. Perhaps the overlap conjures up arguements of 'who was first' but is that necessary or just a childish ploy? I like both Trek TV and Movies and I enjoy the SW movies, both original and prequel. I think the modern versions of both don't quite meet the lore of the orginals, but hardly any sequel or reproduction does. What we have to understand with the modern stories are that Gene and George's visions can be fully illustrated with modern technology. Perhaps some of the story and lore was exposed and visualized with CGI, but we lost some of the mystery and imagination we would create in our own minds. I have enjoyed everyone's opinions and I respect what everyone has said. -----signature----- All too easy...
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