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Author	Topic: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/13/06 3:17am Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit. - Date Edited: 2/13/06 4:23am (9 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	If you did not like the books so much what are you doing here? Did I missed the signage permitting only the proponents, eh? It's often hard to digest any dissent other than hypnotic approval for Lord of the Rings, Raja_Io, and I thank you for evidencing again why I seldom engage in LOTR discussions. Fortunately, dontlookatmethatway was willing to look. Okay then, what right did Elrond have to decide the worthiness of Gondor's ascendancy? You've given me the impression Aragorn needed to prove himself. Sauron's employment dismissal was 3000yrs ago. Was the Gondorish throne vacant that long too? Secondly, I brought the point of Gandalf rambling for over a page just to describe his Saruman escape to Baggins, which you said furthered the story. Yet that passage did what books like Icarus Hunt and Shatterpoint did: make a point on an event, then overelaborate even more when you've already said enough. Gandalf was taking a long time to say what he said, meandering his way to the essence instead of a straight road; I've looked at that section carefully, and it didn't look to me like "furthering the story," rather a tedious pace bereft of precision. And that's a key issue with his prose: it's damn long and heavy on conversation. And conversation is pretty much all you get, there's hardly an action scene. For example, the Moria bridge was barely a page, and textually, a lot of one-line sentences at that. The conversations aer very heavy on exposition, overdosing the reader on as much geographical and demographic data as you can fit it. Often, you're naming the forest road you're walking down, and then he chucks a "James Luceno" and feels compelled to inform you what other topographical locales are all around. None or little of which has relevance to that road you're walking. And that's just one example of scores I can cite with the LOTR trilogy. Anyway, thirdly, in regards to the lack of human population, the endless singing and serenading made it hard to spot historical tidbits prevalent as it was. Were these post-Sauron conflicts mentioned in the trilogy? That's what I don't remember. Fourthly, I've gotten this Silmarillion to many of my questions, and I don't like it. I'm reading this very long trilogy, this very long "single" book broken up into thousands of pages, and it doesn't explain even in the briefest of words why there's elf-dwarf tension and who these main characters are? Why must I read this Silmarillion to find out, that a thick-paged Fellowship should have taken care of? The earliest drafts of Silmarillion are dated in 1917, as Google informs me, this 1st Age; Hobbit in 1937. That would mean the main books were published long before the Silmarillion, yes? Even today, if you were unaware of the Silmarillion, you'd be reading the books uninformed in several key areas, I suppose as I was. This is not good. Lastly, interconnected with my prior point, I really did have a problem with the characterisation: there was none. Everyone was black and white, there was no grey. The heroes are brave and strong (and babble ceaselessly), the villains nasty, ugly and bad. I was reading this Aragorn lad without the slightest scrap of background, and what I knew left me with all those questions. Why was he scorned from the throne; who the hell this Leggy and Gimli duo are; where were all the female dwarfs, for males was all I was seeing. The elf's from Mirkwood like spidery Shelob, some princeling, but I wasn't reading much of anything else, no character, deeper substance. We've got this pilot light atop a tower I know nothing about. I want to know Sauron's background; who he is, where he came from, what made him stereotypically naughty. More importantly, I need to know how he got so strong. I'm a not a trusting soul; I need to see things, not just be told "he is." How does a burning eye make his orclings obey him into developing an empire? In the movies, in the books, he's "just there." Did the trilogy answer any of these? I heaps other issues, but Raja, dear, asking why dwarfs hate elfs and saying "it's in the Silmarillion" doesn't tell me a damn thing. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/13/06 1:25pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit. - Date Edited: 2/13/06 1:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Kyptastic
	Dwarves and elves hate eachother because of what happened in the first age - One of the elvenkings, Elu Thingol - who is Elronds great-great grandfather - was slain by a group of dwarves who were forging together a Silmaril and the Nauglamir (which was made by the dwarves) because the king refused to yield the Dwarves the jewels. When the Dwarves escaped they got together their kin and assaulted the Kings palace and killed all the Elves and took the silmaril. The Dwarves were then killed by the daughter of the King and her husband and the elves they had gathered to them and reclaimed the silmaril, which they had taken from the crown of the Dark Lord Morgoth in the first place. -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/13/06 4:08pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	Mighty long grudge. How long between the 1st and 3rd Ages? -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Darth-Ghost Registered: Oct '03	Date Posted: 2/13/06 4:40pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	I think anyone who likes LOTR and the Hobbit should read the Silmarillion. It was a neat book, showing the whole backstory to the books. It covers all the ages before the Sun/Mankind, then focuse on tales from the First Age, some of the Second Age, and a summary of the Third Age. And I think each age is around 3000 years, so probably around 6000 years between the Dwarves-Elves fight and LOTR. But they are all long-lived too. I think there is a timeline in the back of Return of the King.
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dontlookatmethatway Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 2/13/06 7:00pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit. - Date Edited: 2/13/06 7:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: dontlookatmethatway
	Excellence posted: Okay then, what right did Elrond have to decide the worthiness of Gondor's ascendancy? You've given me the impression Aragorn needed to prove himself. Sauron's employment dismissal was 3000yrs ago. Was the Gondorish throne vacant that long too? It’s entirely possible that when Elrond refused to give Aragorn the Sceptre for the reason that he had yet to earn it, Aragorn accepted that he shouldn’t try to become king just yet. As for the throne, after there were no more royal butts to sit on it, it was handed to the Stewards of Gondor until one with a rightful claim to it appeared. The Stewards reigned for many generations until Aragorn assumed the throne. Excellence posted: Secondly, I brought the point of Gandalf rambling for over a page just to describe his Saruman escape to Baggins, which you said furthered the story. Yet that passage did what books like Icarus Hunt and Shatterpoint did: make a point on an event, then overelaborate even more when you've already said enough. Gandalf was taking a long time to say what he said, meandering his way to the essence instead of a straight road; I've looked at that section carefully, and it didn't look to me like "furthering the story," rather a tedious pace bereft of precision. And that's a key issue with his prose: it's damn long and heavy on conversation. Well, first of all, the only one who had heard his tale before was Elrond, so Gandalf was telling it to almost the entire council. This was a rather important story; Saruman had been counted among one of their powerful allies and his turning to evil was a crucial piece of information. The people seated there would have wanted a lot of detail; I don’t think Gandalf could have gotten away with a one-sentence response. So why shouldn’t Gandalf tell the whole story? Isn’t this council the place where everyone gets an update on what’s going on? It also helps develop the character of Saruman. Excellence posted: And conversation is pretty much all you get, there's hardly an action scene. For example, the Moria bridge was barely a page, and textually, a lot of one-line sentences at that. The conversations are very heavy on exposition, overdosing the reader on as much geographical and demographic data as you can fit it. Often, you're naming the forest road you're walking down, and then he chucks a "James Luceno" and feels compelled to inform you what other topographical locales are all around. None or little of which has relevance to that road you're walking. Using the Moria bridge action scene as an example isn’t really fair. There was an action scene right before that at Balin’s tomb. Despite it’s shortness, however, it is still one of the greatest fantasy action scenes I have ever read. I thought you, of all people, would favor quality over quantity. Can you give me an example of what you think of as an overdose of data from LotR? I don’t feel that he does this, so an example would help. Excellence posted: And that's just one example of scores I can cite with the LOTR trilogy. Anyway, thirdly, in regards to the lack of human population, the endless singing and serenading made it hard to spot historical tidbits prevalent as it was. Were these post-Sauron conflicts mentioned in the trilogy? That's what I don't remember. Hey! I liked the singing! Several of the mid-Third Age conflicts were mentioned, though Tolkien mostly mentioned the ones pertaining to the rise of Sauron. Excellence posted: The earliest drafts of Silmarillion are dated in 1917, as Google informs me, this 1st Age; Hobbit in 1937. That would mean the main books were published long before the Silmarillion, yes? Even today, if you were unaware of the Silmarillion, you'd be reading the books uninformed in several key areas, I suppose as I was. This is not good. The readers weren’t uninformed in key areas. They had everything they needed to follow the story, if not the wealth of detail included in the Silmarillion. The reason you don’t get all the background you want on the racial enmity between the elves and dwarves and the historical details is because it happened so long ago. Only a few people alive when the story takes place remember. Excellence posted: Lastly, interconnected with my prior point, I really did have a problem with the characterization: there was none. Everyone was black and white, there was no grey. The heroes are brave and strong (and babble ceaselessly), the villains nasty, ugly and bad. I was reading this Aragorn lad without the slightest scrap of background, and what I knew left me with all those questions. Why was he scorned from the throne; who the hell this Leggy and Gimli duo are; where were all the female dwarfs, for males was all I was seeing. The elf's from Mirkwood like spidery Shelob, some princeling, but I wasn't reading much of anything else, no character, deeper substance. Like above, the reason you don’t get all the background info you want is because it happened far back in the past. I also wouldn’t say that there was no characterization. I will use Boromir as an example. Boromir was always one of my favorite characters. He is the next in line to become the Ruling Steward of Gondor. His father, Denethor, has high expectations for him. He needs to work with Aragorn and they need to trust each other with their life because they will face great challenges in the War of the Ring. Unfortunately Aragorn is the true king and will take away Boromir’s job as Ruling Steward. As Boromir is facing this inner struggle, he is being corrupted by the Ring. He wants to do the right thing and thinks he can use the Ring to help Gondor win against Sauron, which is how the Ring is getting at him. These are deep, deep conflicts and show Boromir as a complex character, not the stereotypical hero you paint him as. Excellence posted: We've got this pilot light atop a tower I know nothing about. I want to know Sauron's background; who he is, where he came from, what made him stereotypically naughty. More importantly, I need to know how he got so strong. I'm a not a trusting soul; I need to see things, not just be told "he is." How does a burning eye make his orclings obey him into developing an empire? In the movies, in the books, he's "just there." Did the trilogy answer any of these? Sauron is a Maiar, a servant of the Valar. He was Morgoth’s trusted lieutenant and, when Morgoth was destroyed, assumed the position of Dark Lord. The LotR trilogy gives information on the Last Alliance, the climactic battle of the Second Age, and the forging of the Ring as well as other details. EDIT: BTW, my Valentine's Day icon = awesome -----signature----- In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes. bozone = the bubble around stupid people that prevents bright ideas from getting through Member of the Game Designers Guild
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ShrunkenJedi Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 2/13/06 8:46pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit. - Date Edited: 2/13/06 8:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShrunkenJedi
	Nice, Dontlook- and, yes, nice icon (self described hobbit jedi!). I think the thing is, Tolkien had such a large mythology outlined that it wouldn't even fit in something as hefty as LOTR, and that's why so many things are unsaid-- they're unnecessary to the actual plot, and would bog it down. LOTR, wordy as it is, is meant to be read for pleasure. The Silmarillion is not, I would argue. -----signature----- Native Bostonian: I was rooting for the Red Sox before it was cool Fanficcer and Fanartist-- check the profile! My New Drabbles and Viggies: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28153417/
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 1:40am Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	ShrunkenJedi posted: Nice, Dontlook- and, yes, nice icon (self described hobbit jedi!). I think the thing is, Tolkien had such a large mythology outlined that it wouldn't even fit in something as hefty as LOTR, and that's why so many things are unsaid-- they're unnecessary to the actual plot, and would bog it down. LOTR, wordy as it is, is meant to be read for pleasure. The Silmarillion is not, I would argue. I disagree. When Tolkien moves from a descriptive mode to a more Narrative structre in basically the chapters from the Tale of Beren and Luthien on to the Fall of Gondolin the book becomes extremely enjoyable (I don't include the tale of Earendil - that doesn't have enough extrapolation for my taste). In any case, it would not have been published if it was not enjiyable to read -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/14/06 1:39pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	You were right: I found the timeline in ROTK. It's very detailed; maybe I can work things out from there. From my earlier question of Age durations, it didn't look like each Age had a fixed numbers of years, but was tied in to trilogy events. It's not a simple timeline, will take time to assimilate . . . -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 2:08pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	The thing is though, the timeline in ROTK (at least in my version, doesn't have anything concerning the events of the first age. That's something that should be added to future versions IMO -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Raja_Io Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 3:25pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	Kyptastic posted: The thing is though, the timeline in ROTK (at least in my version, doesn't have anything concerning the events of the first age. That's something that should be added to future versions IMO Well, I don't think so. This would mean adding kinda synopsis of Silmarillion to it, which wouldn't make much sense to me, since the whole book is vastly available. And anyone who would like to investigate the story further, could easily get it. -----signature----- It's better to have loved and destroyed your girl with the power of the Arc of Covenant than never to have loved at all. --- Making a ninja burger in progress... 0%
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 4:20pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	Raja_Io posted: Kyptastic posted: The thing is though, the timeline in ROTK (at least in my version, doesn't have anything concerning the events of the first age. That's something that should be added to future versions IMO Well, I don't think so. This would mean adding kinda synopsis of Silmarillion to it, which wouldn't make much sense to me, since the whole book is vastly available. And anyone who would like to investigate the story further, could easily get it. Yes but ROTK has a timeline of the Second Age as well, not as detailed as what is described in both the Akallabeth, of the Rings of Power and in Unfinsihed tales but it still would be good for casual Lord of the Rings readers to just have a look in the back of ROTK and see what happened in teh first age to connect the two parts of the story -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/14/06 4:46pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	How much of it has direct pertinence to the immediate story, and is just filler, something to read? -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 6:51pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	It would fill in a lot that is mentioned in the story - ie. Sauron's servitude of evil, explain Elronds heritage , show why there is a dispute between elves and dwarves. Not exactly necessary information, but it would be useful to expand the experience of the read. -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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dontlookatmethatway Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 2/14/06 7:23pm Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit. - Date Edited: 2/14/06 7:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: dontlookatmethatway
	Writing Style of the Silmarillion - Both Kyptastic and Shrunken_Jedi are right. There are parts of the Silmarillion that read like a history book and there are parts that read like a novel. The writing style changes. First Age Timeline in Return of the King - Bad idea. If you haven't read the Silmarillion, you would have no idea who someone like Morgoth is. The timeline wouldn't have a whole ton of significance because you know nothing or very little about the events listed there. Silmarillion Pertinence to Lord of the Rings - Hard to say. The relevance depends on how much you want to know. It is basically a history of the LotR world from the creation up to the time of the LotR trilogy. -----signature----- In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes. bozone = the bubble around stupid people that prevents bright ideas from getting through Member of the Game Designers Guild
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/18/06 2:45am Subject: RE: The Land of Middle Earth: Lord of the Rings & The Hobbit.
	In the space of an afternoon, I've read ROTK. I thought to myself there was no better moment, having just finished Destiny, a masterpiece of rubbish the likes of which I've never encountered before. My armour was battered but still intact, so I took the risk. Now I finally have a full view of the trilogy. Considering how Tolky overloads you with irrelevant geo- and demographical trivia, I thought the book was actually light as fluff, with fast paced scenes and brevity of depth to match. The Havens' farewell was rushed, which took me by surprise. I was expecting a lot kissing and prose to match. Speaking of which, I also was reading a lot of hugging and kissing and professions of love between the cast. I found that . . . disturbing and perhaps even a reflection of his own life. Some emotional support moments just went too far. And what stood out most interestingly was the complete lack of finale, a climax, a suspense within the volcanic sanctum. If I had read the thing back to back, I'd have felt like I'd been slapped across the face, to have waded through so much rambling just for a lightspeed moment that lacked any tension in any sense of the word. Still, I now have the full holo. -----signature----- My utilisation of complex locution to ask what's more pathetic, fans who worship their movie actors, or the actors who couldn't give a damn, is more a reflection of my own superincumbent mental actuity than any circumscribed lexicon. Don't you agree?
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