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Author	Topic: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
RebelScum77 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 1/4/06 7:33am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Yep, I agree with Ousley and Mara. I don't think Snape is evil, there's definitely something deeper to this whole situation. And Dumbledore is most likely dead. There's a definite parallel to Star Wars here, that didn't immediately reveal itself, Dumbledore being the Obi-Wan character who sacrifices himself so the hero will step up, Snape being the Vader character who on the surface seems evil, but hides a goodness within. Of course these are old character archetypes used for centuries, not just with Star Wars. But it's interesting to think about. -----signature----- CHEAP SLIT!!
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Zebra3 Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 1/4/06 7:56am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Count me in on the group that thinks Snape isn't really evil. If there's one thing that's obvious in Rowling's books it's that not everything is as it appears. In every book there's been a character or characters who we think one thing of at the begining of the book and by the end we see them in a completely different light. Think about it: Sorcerer's Stone-- Quirrel we think is an incompetent coward at the begining of the book but by the end he turns out to be the villan all along, with Voldemort sticking out the back of his head to boot. Chamber of Secrets-- Professor Lockheart we just think is a self-absorbed nincompoop but turns out to be far more clever than he lets on. Prisoner of Azkaban-- Obviously Sirius is a murdering lunatic bent at the begining but by the end we know he's been wrongly accused and really is a good guy. Goblet of Fire-- Moody the ex-Auorer isn't really moody at all but Barty Crouch Jr. a convicted Death Eater, and really is the one behind Harry's name being put in the Goblet. Order of the Phoenix-- Umbridge we learn isn't exactly evil but just seriously misguided and afraid of everything that's happening around her, which paints her in a more sympathetic light. Even Grawp turns out to be a good guy by the end. Half-Blood Prince-- Draco Malfoy, who we all know is a major bully, in the end can't bring himself to kill Dumbledore. Then there's that whole scene with Moaning Myrtle with him crying and worrying about Voldemort killing him. And don't forget his reaction when Dumbledore comments about Greyback being let loose on the school, and his friends. book seven-- so what character will we think one thing of at the begining and think something completely different of at the end? Me thinks it'll be Snape considering we are all predisposed to hate him now. But what will it be that changes our opinion of him? Now THAT's the real question. -----signature----- recipient of the coveted Corellian Ewokstripes with bronze cluster My icon archive -- > http://zebra3icons.bravehost.com/main1.html I'm currently reading Han Solo's Revenge I'm currently playing Tomb Raider Anniversary
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ginchy Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 1/4/06 8:15am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	I'm in the Dumbledore = dead, Snape = good camp. In fact, I found that I liked Snape MORE after HBP than I did in the other books. I truly think he had to do something he wanted no part of, but in loyalty to Dumbledore, did so. IMO, Harry, Ron, and Hermione HAVE to learn that not all Slytherin's are evil. They are really bent towards Slytherin in that way...in fact, I was hoping one the of the Maurader's (sp?) would have been in Slytherin, and not all in Gryffindor, just to show the kids that their view is off. (Well, not Pettigrew, but you see what I'm saying, I hope?) Slytherin house is towards ambition, but that's not always a bad thing. I wonder if Snape will be the one to help them realize that? -----signature----- ginchy's gambit: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/29089731/p1 ** Ready for 2009.
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ObiWan506 Title: JC Head Admin Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 1/4/06 8:58am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Me too. I believe Dumbledore is gone and that Snape is really good. For instance, The Elf Tales Chapter in HBP has Hagrid overhearing a conversation between Dumbledore and Snape inside the Forest. Snape is continually saying that he doesn't want to do it, but Dumledore insists upon it. Could this be the events that happened at the end of HBP? Is that why Snape took great offense to Potter's "coward" comments? Because Snape really wants to help Potter, but this is the only way to help. I mean, I would hate that position too. -----signature----- If you have any questions about Christianity and/or Jesus, I'd love to talk to you. Please PM me. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!" Acts 16:31 Yes, I am a sinner. So are you. We all have a Savior. ------ TFN506@me.com
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DarthIshtar Title: Former CR Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 1/4/06 9:39am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	I think that Dumbledore saw death coming, either as an inevitable end of his part in the war or as a sacrifice he would have to make. (Perhaps he read Joseph Campbell.) I think he knew that, since Snape had been a Death Eater and the price at which Snape had come back, he knew that the best way for Snape to be on the inner circle when the time came to move against Voldemort, he encouraged Snape's "defection." This is probably why he was involved with the Order of the Phoenix. -----signature----- "I feel like a more down-to-earth Pink 5 when I'm writing Leah. Same attitude, less lip gloss." ~Me on how to get in the right mindset for Twilight fanfic.
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JediNemesis Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 1/4/06 12:34pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Dumbledore is dead. The Body-Bind curse on Harry lifted, we saw the green light and everything. Only one person has ever lived through the Avada Kedavra and it isn't Dumbledore. Snape is good. Why? All the reasons mentioned above, but one thing in particular gets me. It's in the book that Snape and Dumbledore look at one another for a long moment (can't remember the exact quote) between Dumbledore's "Please . . ." and Snape's "Avada Kedavra." Can two of the greatest Legilimens in the wizarding world can look at one another for that long and nothing pass between them? Maybe. Would Dumbledore take the opportunity to show Snape his mind? Possibly, even probably. Is there any mileage in Dumbledore's blowing Snape's cover and endangering Harry in order to live? Probably not - he's just drunk a potion that cripples him almost to the point of death, and might not have lived long anyway. Why does Snape have a look of hatred and revulsion on his face? Because he's being forced to kill the one man who believed in him, believed in his repentance, for the sake of a boy he hates. Snape is a good guy. He may have to die in Book 7 to prove this to the world in general, but he is on the side of the angels. -----signature----- BeTS Best Author '08 NEW Eleven Summers - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29657584 Lightning and Diamonds - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29251762 Into The Shining Day - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29224914
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PadmeLeiaJaina Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 1/4/06 12:37pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Great points Ousely! I thought much the same as you after my first reading. Also, the scene where Harry hexes the hell out of Malfoy is VITALLY important in the grand scheme of things to determining if Snape is bad or not. I think that if you look back on Snape's character and how he behaves towards Harry throughout the series you'll see that he spends his time trying his hardest to get Harry to live up to his (Snape's) expectations. We see the books through Harry's eyes. The eyes of adolescence fail to see and understand the real motives of adults and if someone mistreats them or does something contrary to how they believe an adult should behave towards them - they tend to think that adult is "out-to-get-them." Snape is, by all means, the most disagreeable fellow out there. But if you look at his potions book, you'll see that when it comes to his subject that Snape was a genius at figuring out how to see "beyond" the conventional methods of teaching. His notations in the sides of the book w/ extra churns, etc prove that even though he may have been socially inept as a student at Hogwarts, Snape was/is very intelligent. His own intellect is what he compares w/ Harry and when Harry fails to show any true genius of going beyond spells, or potions, etc - he sees him as being average and nothing remarkable. Then he cursed Malfoy w/ one of Snape's own spells. How much you want to bet that's a spell that Snape spent a lifetime wanting to use on someone. Seeing Harry cast it properly made him realize that perhaps the boy DOES have talent. He wasn't angry at Harry when he attacked Malfoy, infact he mutters something that vaguely resembles awe. Even as he was fleeing, Snape was still trying to issue some last words of advice to Harry before leaving w/ the Death Eaters. By killing Dumbledore, there will be no way that Voldermort won't trust him. I strongly believe that IF Snape turns out to be the good guy that Dumbledore knew him to be, he will find ways to help Harry locate the last Horcruxes, and he will ultimately become Harry's biggest ally. ..whether Harry would ever believe it or not. -----signature----- Check out my STAR WARS Fan Site! http://www.freewebs.com/padmeleiajaina/ Join my Sarah Connor Chronicles board! http://tsccsociety.proboards52.com/
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JediNemesis Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 1/4/06 1:27pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	How much you want to bet that's a spell that Snape spent a lifetime wanting to use on someone. Seeing Harry cast it properly made him realize that perhaps the boy DOES have talent. I hadn't thought of that. "For Enemies"? Wonder if young Severus spent lessons itching to rip holes in James Potter? Mind you, it's a destructive spell. It's not a defensive spell, like Stupefy, Impedimenta or Petrificus Totalus. Malfoy is left bleeding, and this little encounter could well be the genesis of Snape's actions on the tower. Malfoy gets his junior Death Eater butt kicked by Harry, who although he can't keep his mouth shut does have the sense to use a spell Malfoy isn't prepared for. And Malfoy's been entrusted with killing Dumbledore, when Harry Potter can take him off guard like that? I'd say this is a final confirmation to Snape that Malfoy is going to need his help, and thus that a long talk with Dumbledore is required. And also a hint that Harry is perhaps more dangerous than he looks - he could come out with anything, and crucially tends not to think before casting a spell he's unsure of the effects of. Dangerous opponent. -----signature----- BeTS Best Author '08 NEW Eleven Summers - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29657584 Lightning and Diamonds - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29251762 Into The Shining Day - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29224914
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Amon_Amarth Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 1/4/06 1:52pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	zebra3 posted: Count me in on the group that thinks Snape isn't really evil. That is a contraversial topic. Snape is evil when it comes to the way how he treats other people, how he thinks of others... He had shown this many times; from not trusting Sirious, being rude to Harry, being rude to Harry, by suspecting everything... He is not really a very god person. But when it comes to wheather he actualy betrayed Dumbledore or not, I am not sure. A feeling tells me he is, but so many things are left unsaid after HBP. There are some details that describe Snape's character, but those details can be differently interpretated (sp?). For example, that Dumbledore's "severus, please" can mean both a cry for help, or an order to a member of the OOTP. We cannot be sure til Book 7. What do you all think of Sectumsempra spell? -----signature----- Jedi Guardian - Acolytes of Revan "The Force is fine...but I would have preferred some company." 'Caenorhabditis elegans' is much better than Darth Plagueis at cheating death. "Don't **** with the Jedi Master, son!" Mark Hamill, CE
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Zebra3 Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 1/4/06 2:07pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Amon_Amarth posted: zebra3 posted: Count me in on the group that thinks Snape isn't really evil. That is a contraversial topic. Snape is evil when it comes to the way how he treats other people, how he thinks of others... He had shown this many times; from not trusting Sirious, being rude to Harry, being rude to Harry, by suspecting everything... He is not really a very good person. No arguments here. He's just a big jerk and an awful teacher. But none of those things inherently make Snape evil. And it's like Hermione says at the end of HBP "Evil is such a strong word." Amon_Amarth posted: What do you all think of Sectumsempra spell? Great question! It really takes a different kind of person to create a spell like that and any others that are specifically created for injuring others. To his credit though, he did make a notation that the spell was "For enemies." -----signature----- recipient of the coveted Corellian Ewokstripes with bronze cluster My icon archive -- > http://zebra3icons.bravehost.com/main1.html I'm currently reading Han Solo's Revenge I'm currently playing Tomb Raider Anniversary
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Amon_Amarth Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 1/4/06 2:32pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	zebra3 posted: "Evil is such a strong word." So true. zebra3 posted: Great question! It really takes a different kind of person to create a spell like that and any others that are specifically created for injuring others. To his credit though, he did make a notation that the spell was "For enemies." As I've said before, I don't think Snape is really evil, I don't think that he actualy works for Voldemort - after all Dumbledore trusted him more than ever. But, what kind of person would invent such a horrible spell... -----signature----- Jedi Guardian - Acolytes of Revan "The Force is fine...but I would have preferred some company." 'Caenorhabditis elegans' is much better than Darth Plagueis at cheating death. "Don't **** with the Jedi Master, son!" Mark Hamill, CE
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Sith_Priestess Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 1/4/06 3:40pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	I think the reason Snape invented such a horrible spell stems from what his life was like when he was a student at Hogwarts. James and Co. were unusually and unecessarily cruel to him for what we can assume were all his school years. I think that e created it after they did a few really bad things to him and he seriously wanted to hurt them, but not kill him. I think that the one thing to note is that the spell doesn't kill immediately, but from blood loss, allowing the person to be saved if they can while still giving them a wound they'll remember. A truly evil person would have created a spell that maimed and killed. ~Priestess -----signature----- Priestess is moving to Indiana. Go Irish! AHBY\| Knight\| Jedi_Daniel I talk to squirrels: chikoo chikoo chikoo Cookie GirlProvider of Homemade Cookies Remus Lupin is my kind of werewolf howl*
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JediNemesis Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 1/5/06 3:39am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	I don't think Snape is really evil, I don't think that he actualy works for Voldemort - after all Dumbledore trusted him more than ever. But, what kind of person would invent such a horrible spell... One thing that really annoys me is when uninformed people equate unpleasant Snape = evil Snape. Nobody has so far, but like someone said, evil's a strong word. Snape is an unfailingly cynical, critical, altogether disagreeable person. He's an immensely talented wizard, but not a particularly nice guy. He even sneers at Hermione, which only the most jaundiced of teachers could do. But for all that he's not an easy person to like - admire, yes, but not like - Snape's not a Dark Wizard. I think that he created it after they did a few really bad things to him and he seriously wanted to hurt them, but not kill them. He created the Sectumsempra spell. Do we know that he ever used it in anger? Did he ever have the courage/stupidity to use it? I suspect it was a spell he created and then, because he knew he could use it, didn't. The knowledge that he was a far better wizard (and he was) was enough; he's not stupid, as well - he'd run a risk of getting summarily thrown out for inventing and using curses like that. Harry was lucky, IMO. -----signature----- BeTS Best Author '08 NEW Eleven Summers - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29657584 Lightning and Diamonds - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29251762 Into The Shining Day - http://boards.theforce.net/a/b1/29224914
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TheBoogieMan Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 1/5/06 3:57am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	Snape is not working for Voldemort. He was acting under Dumbledore's orders when he killed him. Is Snape good? That's another question altogether, but not an important one. I believe that even in the end, Snape will remain ambiguous, but it will be clear that he is on the side of Dumbledore. Several points of question to those who believe Snape is evil, or working for Voldemort: 1. Do the following quotes strike you as familiar? “Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore’s mouth and tipped it, so that Dumbledore drank the remainder of the potion inside.” - p534, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince “Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face.” - p556, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince Compare this with Snape's attitude upon cornering Sirius and Lupin in POA. Markedly different: “Snape was slightly breathless, but his face was full of suppressed triumph. ‘You’re wondering, perhaps, how I knew you were here?’ he said, his eyes glittering.” - p263, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban 2. Why did Dumbledore appoint Snape to the DADA position if he knew it was jinxed and would lead Snape to leave the school within the year? Would this not severely place Dumbledore at a disadvantage by losing his only spy in the Death Eaters? 3. Why does Snape lie to Narcissa and Bellatrix at the start of HBP? He claims that he thought that: ". . . Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more. I was curious, I admit it, and not at all inclined to murder him the moment he set foot in the castle." Severus Snape thought nothing of the sort. This is a complete untruth, and we know it. So why does he lie? Oh, and old Dumbledore is as dead as a doornob. We will see him, however, in both the portrait and the pensieve.
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CodeName_Targeter Registered: Nov '03	Date Posted: 1/5/06 6:12am Subject: RE: Harry Potter: The Headmaster and the Half-Blood Prince (MAJOR Book 6 Spoilers)
	1. To your first point, I think there's a major difference between Snape killing Dumbledore, (who, if he's working for Voldemort, is the only one that his Master ever feared,) and Snape finding one of his long time school enemies. I don't have my books with me right now since I'm at school so I can't quote any parts, unfortunately. However, if I were in the same situation as Snape in those two examples you provided, I'm pretty sure my reactions would be different. Not different as in I would have different reactions then Snape, but different as in I would not have the same reaction for both, if that makes any sense. And while, yes, their reactions were similiar (Harry and Snape), or at least how they were described, it does not necessarily mean that there is a connection. If you hate someone, (I wouldn't know for sure, but this is just a guess,) I'd bet the fact that you hate them while you kill them would be rather evident on your face. 2. Just because Snape leaves the castle does not encessarily mean that Dumbledore would be unable to keep his double agent. I'm sure the two of them would've been able to come up with something. 3. As we never see things from Snape's POV, how can we say for sure that he never thought that? And if he didn't, like you say, this lie could have possibly been one of the things he came up with to stop Voldemort from murdering him on the spot. -----signature----- XWFC: Wraith Leader and Senator - Starfighter Draft Winner Ravenclaw ftw! Doppleganger of Suzuki_Akira and Vod'ika to Valin_Halcyon Dragged back to the forums for the SFD by Jello. Look out!
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