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Author	Topic: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
Raja_Io Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 1/10/06 10:03am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 10:05am (1 edits total) Edited By: Raja_Io
	Agreed. How come you judge all of the other writers? There ary many authors do not disrespect the reader. I wouldn't say I have felt offended when reading le Guin or Strugatsky. Or even Tolkien. EDIT: Sounded strange. -----signature----- It's better to have loved and destroyed your girl with the power of the Arc of Covenant than never to have loved at all. --- Making a ninja burger in progress... 0%
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ezekiel22x Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 10:47am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 10:48am (1 edits total) Edited By: ezekiel22x
	Excellence posted: I don't know Scott Bakker, but really, Martin and Erikson are in a devastating league of their own. The current and past market literally has no rival. I'm a pale insignificance to such calibre. If you think Martin and Erikson are fantasy's two all-time definitive voices, then like Mastadge says you should probably do yourself a favor and look a little bit beyond all the recent epic stuff. If you're looking for immaculate prose, dense characters, and plotting chock full of emotion and allusion, then I assure you that Gene Wolfe's masterwork The Book of the New Sun makes Martin's work look particularly pedestrian.
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 2:37pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 2:53pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	Why are people assuming I'm unfamiliar with fantasy instead of inquiring? Is this how discussion starts? Over the years I have noticed this silly aspect of the forum: people just assume what they want, and never apologise when corrected. Very well; I presume your hair is all blonde. Mastadge, you took me literally! When I say I've only found two sharp authors, I meant in my opinion, not in finding them by search. The problmem with Bakker, I've heard, is that he too rapes woman and underclasses them. Erikson does neither, and technically, supercedes him for creativity in that dept alone. Raja_Io, I understood you, but don't share your obvious high regard for Tolkien. Endless scenic description neither thrills nor enthralls me. I've given that overhyped boredom serious thought for a long time, and have concluded only the sheer length and illusional gravity of the peril has made it memorable worldwide. People have equated an overload of topographical names for gold-gilded quality. Or perhaps it's the biblical prose, giving it a perceived formality. But you see, had the book come out today, or he'd arrived at his rambling conversations a lot sooner, it would be nothing special significant. In this sense, James Luceno's infodumps are no different. By rights, he should be equally worshipped, no? I am now conversant in what's available in fantasy. And Erikson is giraffe neck above peers in many divisions. How many of you have read him, anyway? He's not widely known . . . and after half a year of delicate searching I have indeed confirmed the veracity of the rumour: American publishers did consider the Malazan series too mature for readers. Bakker too had problems; perhaps it's Canadian bias? Do tell me, my good Ezekiel, what is sun-blinding about Wolfe's material? The Wizard Knight Trilogy---young boy enters alternate world, becomes brave hero, searches for magical dragon sword. If the simplicity of the title wasn't enough, I'd say this was recycled teen food yet again. To respect the reader, seriously, you must give them a creative plot they can't foresee, unexpected surprises, a rewarding finale, mature prose, good cover art, ongoing interest and intrigue, all without fantasy's typical cliches. Except for his use of dragons, Erikson does all. Few others do. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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ezekiel22x Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:17pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 3:18pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ezekiel22x
	Excellence posted: Do tell me, my good Ezekiel, what is sun-blinding about Wolfe's material? I've already told you why you should read The Book of the New Sun. If you choose not to, then at least refrain from calling Gene Wolfe a purveyor of teen filler (Unless, of course, you're comfortable with making asinine, ignorant remarks.)
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:35pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 3:43pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	Why don't you detail his attributes for me then, rather than turbolaser flippancy? Show me what makes his most recent material The Wizard Knight so engaging. Whilst doing so, mayhaps you could point where in my above posts I said I was Wolfely unfamiliar, for I fear I cannot find it. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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Jairen Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:40pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Hey, let's try not to let this get too personal on here. Everyone will have opinions on who they think is the best, and what they like. There is no need to justify what you like, just accept that others may not agree. -----signature----- "How am I gonna get a girl? I drive around in a garbage truck!" - Hellboy Me in a film: http://copperraven.com/movies/ahoweb.wmv
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dontlookatmethatway Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:43pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Excellence, I have a few objections to your post. Excellence posted: The problmem with Bakker, I've heard, is that he too rapes woman and underclasses them. Erikson does neither, and technically, supercedes him for creativity in that dept alone. I fail to see how this detracts from the quality of the book. The social position of women is merely an aspect of the world that the author creates. Excellence posted: Do tell me, my good Ezekiel, what is sun-blinding about Wolfe's material? The Wizard Knight Trilogy---young boy enters alternate world, becomes brave hero, searches for magical dragon sword. If the simplicity of the title wasn't enough, I'd say this was recycled teen food yet again. It's not "recycled teen food." He takes all the overused subjects in fantasy (elves, dragons, giants and the like) and gives them a twist. This makes them interesting and not just the same old cliches. While I'm not Wolfe's biggest fan, your characterization of his writing is simply unfair. Excellence posted: Raja_Io, I understood you, but don't share your obvious high regard for Tolkien. Endless scenic description neither thrills nor enthralls me. I've given that overhyped boredom serious thought for a long time, and have concluded only the sheer length and illusional gravity of the peril has made it memorable worldwide. People have equated an overload of topographical names for gold-gilded quality. Or perhaps it's the biblical prose, giving it a perceived formality. But you see, had the book come out today, or he'd arrived at his rambling conversations a lot sooner, it would be nothing special significant. Tolkien was a great author. The long descriptions that he gives in his books are one of the things that make them good. He goes to great lengths to describe the world that his story is set in, and that's a real boon to the reader. I cannot see how people think that it is boring. -----signature----- In democracy your vote counts. In feudalism your count votes. bozone = the bubble around stupid people that prevents bright ideas from getting through Member of the Game Designers Guild
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:45pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Easy, Jairen, no one's overheated. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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Raja_Io Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:47pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 3:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Raja_Io
	Let's just discuss the topic, ok? Every author has his/her own thread, so there's no need to fight, right? What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? Answer, please. -----signature----- It's better to have loved and destroyed your girl with the power of the Arc of Covenant than never to have loved at all. --- Making a ninja burger in progress... 0%
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 3:58pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 4:02pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	No problem, dontlookatmethatway. The social position of women is merely an aspect of the world that the author creates, you said. My counterpoint would be, well, why do fantasy authors base their own make believe worlds on primative European mediveval society? And since it's so widespread and dominant in fantasy, I think readers and authors alike have assumed it as standard acceptability. My characterisation of Wolfe's writing isn't as unfair as you put it. Even if he gives his elves and dragons a twist, he's still using the same tired old archetypes, isn't he? That's my point: 80 percent of available books show the same species time and again. Would a twist in Star Wars be a heroic nice Sith Lord? Tolkien was a great author. The long descriptions that he gives in his books are one of the things that make them good. He goes to great lengths to describe the world that his story is set in, and that's a real boon to the reader. I cannot see how people think that it is boring. Gandalf rambled for a page just to describe his Saruman escape. As for world building, it's all heavy exposition. Told to you, not showed. You are flooded with endless and needless scenic detail and locale names just for walking down a forest road. This is not world building, this is just you told a mountain of people and places that have little direct relevance to any current scene topic. My question above still stands unanswered, and ties into the thread topic: does heavy description make a book more acclaimed, when a lighter one gets to the point faster? Does fantasy need such "world building" to "stand out" amongst lesser peers? The Second Sons Trilogy had absolutely none at all, and it was all but criminal. On the other leg, Son of Avonar did, and in very rich verbose; yet more direct than Tolkien rambling. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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ezekiel22x Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:17pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Excellence posted: Why don't you detail his attributes for me then, rather than turbolaser flippancy? Show me what makes his most recent material The Wizard Knight so engaging. Whilst doing so, mayhaps you could point where in my above posts I said I was Wolfely unfamiliar, for I fear I cannot find it. First off, I haven’t read The Wizard Knight, so I’m not going to comment on it other than say I have heard praise thrown its way for taking such a familiar storyline and imbuing with trademark Gene Wolfe attributes like high-end prose, graphic honesty in battle scenes, and a distinct narrative voice that captures the evolving mindsets of the title character. But like I said, I’m not talking about that book. You were speaking of your inability to find quality fantasy writers that offer a product that respects readers, and thus I recommended you read Wolfe’s Book of the New Sun, a work regarded by many as one of the best novels ever written regardless of genre. You proceeded to ignore this recommendation, suggesting that Wolfe writes “teen food.” Hence the reason I suggested you were unfamiliar with his work, because out of all the opinions I’ve read about Wolfe and his oeuvre, I’ve never once heard any criticism that claims he targets and/or attracts an immature readership. But correct me if I’m wrong, and do feel free to tell me how much Wolfe you’ve read. Or at the very least, keep in mind that I recommend you read The Book of the New Sun if quality if what you're craving.
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Jairen Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:30pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Excellence posted: My counterpoint would be, well, why do fantasy authors base their own make believe worlds on primative European mediveval society? Well, I have two answers for this one, the first being a little contrite and obvious - it sells. Love it or hate it, that style of fantasy, set in a medieval culture with magic is at the core of what many people believe to be Fantasy. Swords, Magic, Quests, etc, have always been at the forefront of this style of writing. Cliched, hell yeah, there are more of that style than anything else out there on the market in this genre. Are there others that seem to stand out above the general mish-mash, yes, and as many of them are based in that cliched world as not. The second reason, and the reason that I use for my own writing, is that it is the world that I want to write within. It appeals to me, this medieval world, though I have noticed that in my own writing, and in other newer stuff I am reading nowadays, there is a mix in societal values between that time and our own. Some writers craft a world that still lives by those older customs, women struggling for identity and acceptance in male dominated worlds. In fact, it is some of those struggles that can lead to extremely well written novels that can grow with their crafting. Just because a book contains a rape, admittedly I prefer it not to be excessively graphic, I think that if it is pertinent for the growth of the character and story, then it should be harrowing enough to make the reader understand what has happened, the depth, pain and horror of the incident. And be careful of creating a world where everything is equal. It is unbalance which drives most stories. There is something wrong, whether it be in society, in magic, in the antagonist or protagonist, most stories only work where there is some form of conflict (and I'm not necessarily talking about battle here.) For me, for any novel to work, whether it be fantasy or non-fantasy, you must have strong characterisation, people that are believable, that make me understand them through their actions and thoughts. Does that mean I need a sweeping, all encompassing plot that has multiple plot twists? Not necessarily. If the character's require a world that puts them through that to create the growth and understanding that I am looking for, then great. If I can see that same growth in character as he comes to terms with being dumped into an unknown world, coming to understand his own magical abilities, then using them to fulfil a destiny to free this land from whatever, then that works too. I have a broad love of most writing out there. Do I feel that some are better than others? Yes. Do I feel that I should look down on someting because it doesn't have a complex, multi-weaving plot that leaves me lost and confused unless I read all the volumes in the series? No. When I read a book, I expect a satisfying story, told well. If it's the first part in a series I expect to at least understand what I've read, even if it raises questions for me that I know won't get answered till future books. Damn, both Martin and Jordon do that to me all the time. There is so much in their books that I want to know and will hopefully discover in future pieces, but each books in and of itself leaves me satisfied rather than confused. -----signature----- "How am I gonna get a girl? I drive around in a garbage truck!" - Hellboy Me in a film: http://copperraven.com/movies/ahoweb.wmv
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:34pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Now, that's better. No, the teen food comment only applied to Wizard Knight, which is all I was talking about. I can handle dragons. They're beats, like horses. But I won't tolerate elfs and bearded dwarfs wielding axes. I'll look into New Sun, but if it doe shave heavy archetypes it's not worth my while, when I still have one Erikson book to go, a book that will have silvered creativity to yet another . . . elf. As for targeting/attracting teen readers you said, this is now a big problem in publishing. More and more authors are now doing this. Zahn's last 6 books were YA. The first of Ian Irvine's new quartet has come. The Eddings have YA books in their series. McIntosh, the new Canavan, the list goes on. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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Jairen Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:41pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Excellence posted: But I won't tolerate elfs and bearded dwarfs wielding axes. And it's your right not to, however it is the right of other people to enjoy that style of writing. Just because there are elves or bearded dwarfs doesn't inherently make the work bad, though I can see from your reaction that it probably does for you. I have a novel that contains elves, dwarfs, demons etc, etc, and will continue to use those devices, because they are right for the world that the novel is set in. Are they your normal cliched elements, perhaps, but in the writing I have done, I delve more into their particular cultures, why they are the way they are, etc, etc. And that is what I am looking for from my reading. I'm not looking always for something totally original, because I hate to say it but you're gonna be disappointed after a while. What I do want is new perspectives, different ways of telling those 7 mythos's over and over again. It's the details, the way in which they are presented that makes the story strong for me. Not just the fact that it doesn't have any cliched elements in it. -----signature----- "How am I gonna get a girl? I drive around in a garbage truck!" - Hellboy Me in a film: http://copperraven.com/movies/ahoweb.wmv
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:46pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 4:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	Careful, Jairen, I'm not sure about the "it sells" motto of publishing. That's a heavily speculated topic, based on where, how and sagacity of information. Where . . . different countries have different markets. America has swashbuckling heroes on their covers, Aust tend more for scenery. The Malazan series covers are indicative of that, especially book 3. How . . . where do pubs get that info anyway? Is good sales of cliche books accurate if you're not offering more variety. And what is the sagacity of the sales records? Overprinting and awareness are mitigating factors. Remember, publishers choose what to sell but they are also basing selection on their selection. Is what they're getting predominant with dragons and dwarfs, elfs and magical swords? Two new genres have increased in fantasy last few years: the magic school scenario, and nature "druids" often penned by women. We're going to see more of them. Anyone read Rhapsody; Symphony of Time? It's cover and inter flaps are littered with the highest accolade of praise. The book was 3/4 pure boredom of walking and talking. I'm finding that the more anyone from the publishing party praises a book, the crappier it is. I'm curious to know if Stackpole really read Erikson's Deadhouse Gates. Somehow, busy with your own books, I can't see how you'd have time to read a thousand pager. Personally, I'd like to see a book where it's the villains that must surive the powerful heroes to win the day and conquer all, and I think I may just do it. -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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