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Jairen Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 1/10/06 4:57pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	In that case, you want Grunts by Mary Gentle, about a group of Orcs faced with the Army Of Light at the end of the world. Very funny, very well written, and exactly what you're talking about. And be careful you don't ignore everything I wrote. Only the first reason I gave had anything to do with the sales of books. I think the second reason, that it's what I want to write about, is far more pertinent. Having had discussions with several of my favourite authors including Robert Jordan and Tad Williams, it is interesting to note that they write what they write because that's what they enjoy writing about. You're probably very right in that the more avant garde Fantasy, those that don't use the cliched standards, are not being seen on the desk of publishers as much as the more standard fare, but that will be as much about there not being enough of it out there in the first place as it is about the taste of the agents. And that's what it really comes down to. The tastes of the agents. It is almost impossible in todays world of publishing to get something straight in front of a published. You need an agent first, and getting an agent is entirely dependant on a couple of things. Who you know and what their personal tastes are. The number of books I have read in recent years where you look at the acknowledgement page and you see that the author KNOWS someone else in the same field who they were able to talk through their stuff with. -----signature----- "How am I gonna get a girl? I drive around in a garbage truck!" - Hellboy Me in a film: http://copperraven.com/movies/ahoweb.wmv
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/10/06 5:12pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 1/10/06 5:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Excellence
	I'm looking closely at those acknowledge pages myself. Walter Williams did indeed help with Martin's river battle of Clash of Kings. Seans Stewart and Russell are factors, and apparently Allston got the X-wing gig from Stacky's recommendation. Speaking of agents, Jairen, what's your take on workshops? I've gotten a lot of useless drivel, ranging from starship lasers compared to our invisible medical lasers and implausable to competent villains being Mr Thrawn siblings. I'm starting to presume on reader intel. Maybe the tried and true generics is all they can handle? Hmmm. I've looked Grunts! up. Orcs working for generic dark powers raid a dimension-travelling dragon's cave and find a horde of 21st century weapons? -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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Jairen Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 1/10/06 6:06pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	That's the one. It works very well, you begin to sympathise with the bad guys by the time you get even a bit into it. With regards to workshops, it can be very difficult to get one that you can trust and that will understand what you're working on. I've run into the issues several times, where they can't understand a concept that you're going for, not because the concept is too complex, but because it doesn't fit into their "world view" of Fantasy. However, I do find workshops invaluable if I restrict the feedback to the mechanics rather than the concepts. Concepts I think work better with the small select group that I can sit down and discuss them with whilst having a drink or something. -----signature----- "How am I gonna get a girl? I drive around in a garbage truck!" - Hellboy Me in a film: http://copperraven.com/movies/ahoweb.wmv
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 1/11/06 5:00am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Excellence posted: Do tell me, my good Ezekiel, what is sun-blinding about Wolfe's material? The Wizard Knight Trilogy---young boy enters alternate world, becomes brave hero, searches for magical dragon sword. If the simplicity of the title wasn't enough, I'd say this was recycled teen food yet again. First, The Book of the New Sun is not The Wizard Knight. TWK is a relatively fresh take on tired tropes; New Sun is absolutely Wolfe's magnum opus, and one of the finest pieces of literature in the English language canon. And how is it that you can condemn WK for having a the same-old plot of boy entering alternate world, and praise other works that have some-old plots of countries at war? -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 1/11/06 5:34am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Could you be more precise? -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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NYCitygurl Title: Generally Out to Lunch Manager: SFFBC, C&G, NSWFF Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/4/06 7:41am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Don't know about sci-fi, but i like fantasy books to have: magic and wizards hero(s) heroine(s) that kick butt as much as the guys swords really evil bad guys who are trying to take over/destroy the world some romance usually some sort of prophecy a happy ending -----signature----- "Not till the moon falls. Not till the world ends."
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Raven Title: SFF: Books and Comics Mangler Registered: Oct '98	Date Posted: 2/5/06 5:26am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	I do tend to like relatively happy endings. I like it when the book as a whole is dark, but ends up an upbeat, positive note, where the romantic relationships work themselves out. -----signature----- 1. Seek enlightenment. 2. ??? 3. Prophet.
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NYCitygurl Title: Generally Out to Lunch Manager: SFFBC, C&G, NSWFF Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/5/06 11:31am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Raven posted: I do tend to like relatively happy endings. I like it when the book as a whole is dark, but ends up an upbeat, positive note, where the romantic relationships work themselves out. Exactly. In my mind, nothing good comes out of a story where they set it up to have this great romance, and then they die. Then you think, well, the beginning of the book was happier, too bad they couldn't just stay like they were at the beginning. -----signature----- "Not till the moon falls. Not till the world ends."
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Raja_Io Registered: Aug '05	Date Posted: 2/5/06 11:34am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	I like kind of sweet-bitter endings. Not a real Holywood-like happy end, but not an apocalypse either. Like in most of Le Guin's books. -----signature----- It's better to have loved and destroyed your girl with the power of the Arc of Covenant than never to have loved at all. --- Making a ninja burger in progress... 0%
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Radical_Edward Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/5/06 5:42pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	I find that great sci-fi and fantasy can still contain the archetypes that are either beloved or reviled, and prove to be well worth the investment, and at the same time, they can go in a completely different direction, turn away from the archetypes or completely change them, and also be great. The most important quality is that the story does something DIFFERENT. I don't think that anyone wants to read the same tale over and over again, only with slighly different settings and slightly different names and, occasionally, slightly different objectives. We don't need another LOTR clone or WoT clone, or even a ASoIaF clone. If I wanted to read that story or those plots, I'd just go back to the source material. A story can be great even when it has the super-villainous villains and heroic heroes and quests and powerful ancient items, all together, just as long as the story that it tells is engaging, new, and well-crafted. Take a look at the Warcraft franchise by Chris Metzen. That story rolls in archetypes and themes that have been rehashed for years on end. There are more magical swords than I can count, there are evil dragons galore, a pseudo-medieval world, elves, monsters, elves, more elves, bearded dwarves carrying axes, even more elves, brutish orcs, sinister dark villains, teenage heroes departing on quests, oh, and more elves. Despite all this, which would normally turn many (including myself) away from the series with barely a second glance, it has proven itself to be original, inspired, entertaining, and fresh. The story takes all those elements and uses them in new and exciting ways that haven't been explored in mainstream fantasy to any extent. Each character and race and country and people and villain has their own motivations, purposes, flaws, and characteristics. The story has a remarkable vitality and a deep and complex history, and the plots and characters are constantly growing and changing. The characters who started out as villains have grown into heroes, and long-time heroes have become twisted and spiteful. The stereotypical benevolent, aesthetic, wise elves have shown themselves to be schizophrenic junkies, and the evil, demonic orcs are the true noble saviors. If there's a typical fantasy element, it is somewhere in the Warcraft series, but the story has always remained fresh, entertaining, engaging, and new because those archetypes are used in remarkable and original ways. Of course, a fantasy story doesn't have to have any of those elements to be great. Martin's novels keep those archetypes to a bare minimum, yet few would argue against A Song of Ice and Fire being a classic. Magic is almost non-existant in his world, dragons almost didn't make it into the final cut, and there are no evil villains. Even the worst villains are real, human characters and can be sympathized with. No character is evil for the sake of evil. Personally, I find nothing wrong with a fantasy story lacking all of the archetypes, including evil villains and heroic heroes. The most interesting characters to me are those that want the best ends, but dont worry too heavily about the consequences of the means that they use to get there. -----signature-----
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Excellence Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 2/6/06 2:24am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	What? No character is evil for the sake of evil? What part about Cersei and Littlefinger and Gregor Clegane did you misread? Littlefinger caused the inter-House war from a childhood vendetta. And he shoves people without remorse end of Storm of Lightsabers. Clealry no evil just for the sake of it, eh? -----signature----- The Brits gave the world Doctor Who We owe them
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The_Flargg Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 2/6/06 4:34pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	Personally, I'm tired of epic. I'm sick of "save the world" plots where, it turns out, everything from your life to the fate of your lover to the existance of your ex-neighbor's cat is on the line, and only the protagonist and/or a band of motley heroes can do anything about it. Does everything have to be on the edge of the abyss for a story to be interesting? Look at Solaris. It is easily one of my favorite sci-fi fantasy, and yet it deals with one man's psychological withdrawal from the death of his wife! It is put into a science fiction setting, and yet it is still about basic human issues. That's why I generally like sci-fi more than fantasy: it generally deals with issues, rather than just plot. -----signature----- "If yousa strike meesa down, meesa gonna become more annoying than you could possibly be imaginin'!" - Jar-Jar --The real reason for Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.
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Moleman1138 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 2/7/06 9:23am Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	The monomyth of the Hero with a Thousand Faces is essential and you have to have characters to pity, to sympathize and to break your heart. Whether it's plot driven or character driven, you still have to have a good story. -----signature----- Host of CBC (Chapter by Chapter) for PT, CT and SFF forums and Box Office Game ROTS-DS Chapter 3: Seeds of Rebellion FOTR Chapter 29: Bilbo's Gifts TSS Chapter 17: Facts and Feathers (8/24/07)
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Lord Bane Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '99	Date Posted: 2/9/06 9:40pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have?
	I won't claim to be an expert on fantasy or science fiction. I've certainly read some books in both genres, but not as many as some of you. But I do have opinions about each genre, things I like and don't like. Some people have mentioned world building in fantasy. I must say, it is the attention to that sort of detail that can really make a book for me. The more I delve into Tolkien, the more I appreciate the role of history and the land, for example. Then again, Robert Jordan tries the same thing and while he succeeds in his first few books, his later ones suffer under the expository weight. However, I do not think this to be a bad concept. Fleshing out the backstory - even if its direct relevance is nil - can often set the larger stage and give structure to the actions of characters and the themes you are trying to bring out. Look at 1984, a sci-fi story. Orwell could have written it with less detail about what was happening in the world, about the backstory. It could've been as short as Ayn Rand's Anthem or Huxley's Brave New World. But Orwell gave us history; he fleshed things out. The picture he created for us was rounder than many other similar dystopian future stories, and we know his wasn't the first or close to the last. Context is key to all detail that could bog down a story. Say you have people traveling across countryside or spacelanes or whatever, and they trade stories about what went on here decades or centuries ago. It might help us understand the characters, even though we're using them as exposition dumps. These scenes also provide depth to the broad setting; it is no longer just a flimsy canvas in the background. That shell of a building, that was where the last free soldier made his stand when the aliens came, and though they are gone, it still resonates with anger and loss and Charles feels this, understands it, as his glider passes overtop. There's not too much exposition there, but it can be fleshed further, the story providing the ghost of a counterpoint to what is currently going on. Tolkien works this the best with his recurring themes and tragic backstories that finally see some happiness (star-crossed lovers finally win in Aragorn and Arwen) or resolution. I've ranted enough about that. Hero with a Thousand Face: we like Joey Campbell, don't we? He supported Lucas' vision, his primary character archetype. But that style of hero does often pervade fantasy stories and I for one would like to see the all-important young lad knocked down a peg. He doesn't have to always be the savior, you see. Here's a problem in many fantasies, though: we chiefly see through only a few eyes, with one set (usually a young man) being our primary focus and so the story reflects his importance. Martin is combating this by showing the many moving pieces and their shared weight in the narrative. Campbell's archetype is not terrible or something to cast by the wayside, but it is a broad stroke that I'd like to see altered more. Fantasy can exist in any time period, so I find the "past only" notion a bit moot. Look at the work of Neil Gaiman: Sandman, American Gods, Anansi Boys, Neverwhere - all fantasy, all set in the modern world. It's modern fantasy, a subsection of the broad genre, like sword-and-sorcery, high fantasy or power fantasy (the old root of comic books). Science Fiction, or speculative fiction as some ashamed writers call it, can be summed up thusly: fiction with a scientific element currently beyong our grasp. It can also contain a healthy dose of social commentary and can delve into the more contemporary themes of the day, like cloning (Jurassic Park, Cast of Shadows). Some executions are more heavy-handed than others, but sci-fi has a long, noble history of using its technologically intrepid platform to weigh important issues and ideas. I think some trace feminism (not the inspiration for, but the movement) to certain sci-fi stories that allowed women different roles than regular stories. Fantasy does that, too (but overcompensates, if you ask me). Science fiction doesn't need spaceships or teleporters or lasers or aliens and their wacky homeworlds. It's all about ideas. science fiction n. A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background. Found here. I need to stop for a moment and sleep. -----signature----- “Time in its aging course teaches all things.” -Prometheus Bound http://thedenofmystery.blogspot.com Ghastly Tales! Thrilling Commentary! Tomfoolery!
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jaya02 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/10/06 5:29pm Subject: RE: What's important for Fantasy/Sci-fi literature to have? - Date Edited: 2/10/06 5:29pm (1 edits total) Edited By: jaya02
	DarthSparhawk posted: 1) Likable main character, who develops his character. 2) Evil and cunning villain. 3) Interesting plot with background history. While I have to agree with the last two points, I don't agree with your first point. It's not necessary for a sci-fi or fantasy story to have a likeable main character for it to be an enjoyable book. For science fiction, A Clockwork Orange comes to mind. Outside the genre, I tend to recall The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz.
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