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Topic:
Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/6 6:32am
Subject:
Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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http://www.linearpublishing.com/RhinoStory.html
This was too good not to be shared.
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RIP George Carlin
I wonder if heaven is ready for the 7 words.
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Ceillean
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/6 7:19am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Seems to me Rowling's desperate. It's sad, actually. She contradicts herself, with saying she went to the website to research her own story (which I find strange to begin with) but now that those people are making a bit of many, she goes crazy.
Sad. Sad. 
I have the feeling she's afraid she'll be forgotten once the Harry Potter Hype's over.
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Senatorial Aide of the KDFC I'm in a MEH mood today.  I've realized Jag's kinda hot. Better late than never, right?  But Kyp's still the best though. So there. I've spoken. Now hush.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 8:49am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Ouch. He makes some fair points there.
I await the outcome of this case with great anticipation.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/6 11:25am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Reading through Card's article once more, I notice a few points I'd like to address.
One, verbatim wording, character names and specific events created by an author are protected by law and can be copyrighted. Broad-stroke outlines, such as the one Card gives as a point of comparison between his novel Ender's Game and Rowling's Potter series, cannot be copyrighted and are not protected by law. (If the latter were so, Lucasfilm could have -- and probably would have -- sued the author and filmmakers of Eragon, which conforms to the precise storyline of the original Star Wars film in a point-by-point comparison.) The makers of the Lexicon seek to use verbatim wording, character names and specific events from Rowling's works in their own.
Two, Rowling's earlier acceptance -- and usage -- of Vader Ark's website does not constitute "hypocrisy". A fan-run website is not usually a means of generating income, but rather is created in the spirit of fanship and of shared access to pertinent materials free of charge. A published work such as Vander Ark's proposed Lexicon exists to generate income. This income would ultimately be derived from Rowling's works.
Three, Vander Ark's proposed Lexicon is not a critical commentary or scholarly research study into the origins and development of the Potter series, as Card seeks to describe it. It is rather an encyclopedia of the "Potterverse" created solely by Rowling. Only the copyright holder has the legal right to create and publish such a work.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/6 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Vortigern99 posted:
Reading through Card's article once more, I notice a few points I'd like to address.
One, verbatim wording, character names and specific events created by an author are protected by law and can be copyrighted. Broad-stroke outlines, such as the one Card gives as a point of comparison between his novel Ender's Game and Rowling's Potter series, cannot be copyrighted and are not protected by law. (If the latter were so, Lucasfilm could have -- and probably would have -- sued the author and filmmakers of Eragon, which conforms to the precise storyline of the original Star Wars film in a point-by-point comparison.) The makers of the Lexicon seek to use verbatim wording, character names and specific events from Rowling's works in their own.
Except Vander Ark at no time has attempted to claim anything original from the Potterverse as his own. It will be heavily sourced, and from I've read elsewhere be "companion" friendly by book in conjunction with where a reader is in the Potter Series. Provided he sources properly...he does have the right...just as Star Wars has been sourced thousands of times when directly referenced.
Vortigern99 posted:
Two, Rowling's earlier acceptance -- and usage -- of Vader Ark's website does not constitute "hypocrisy". A fan-run website is not usually a means of generating income, but rather is created in the spirit of fanship and of shared access to pertinent materials free of charge. A published work such as Vander Ark's proposed Lexicon exists to generate income. This income would ultimately be derived from Rowling's works.
This is where She does have a case...but I will offer this line from Card
Orson Scott Card posted:
The difference between us is that I actually make enough money from Ender's Game to be content, without having to try to punish other people whose creativity might have been inspired by something I wrote.
legally, she may have grounds...but is it necessary? I'm sure Rowling has sold in one Harry Book 100 fold the copies of Ender's Game...what's the message.
Additionally I would like to say that it wouldn't just be "her" work...this fan spent 10 years on a website that was award winning and lauded by it's inspiration's creator!
That takes a LOT of work...a lot of dedication from a fan...you know...just like the one we are on right now. I'd hope that perhaps after a decade of dedicated following and accumulating as a fan...the possibility of perhaps gaining a small fruit from the labor? Yes would this be so bad?
As Card mentioned, similar books were written about Potter during the run...why is it verboten now?
Vortigern99 posted:
Three, Vander Ark's proposed Lexicon is not a critical commentary or scholarly research study into the origins and development of the Potter series, as Card seeks to describe it. It is rather an encyclopedia of the "Potterverse" created solely by Rowling. Only the copyright holder has the legal right to create and publish such a work.
Again I quote Card:
OSC posted:
But Lexicon is intended only as a reference book for people who have already paid for their copies of Rowling's books. Even though the book is not scholarly, it certainly falls within the realm of scholarly comment.
This is not an attempt to "get your Potter in brief"...this is not a book to short change the buying of the series...in fact, I'd say it would probably pretty nonsensical to the non-Potter fan.
_________
10,000 prints...give the dude a break.
-----signature-----
A voice for my thoughts has been lost.
RIP George Carlin
I wonder if heaven is ready for the 7 words.
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/6 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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A young kid growing up in an oppressive family situation suddenly learns that he is one of a special class of children with special abilities, who are to be educated in a remote training facility where student life is dominated by an intense game played by teams flying in midair, at which this kid turns out to be exceptionally talented and a natural leader. He trains other kids in unauthorized extra sessions, which enrages his enemies, who attack him with the intention of killing him; but he is protected by his loyal, brilliant friends and gains strength from the love of some of his family members. He is given special guidance by an older man of legendary accomplishments who previously kept the enemy at bay. He goes on to become the crucial figure in a struggle against an unseen enemy who threatens the whole world.
-Orson Scott Card
I can't help but laugh. Generic plot points to be sure, rather than specific items being referenced, but still quite funny.
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NYCitygurl
Title: SFFBC and C&G Manager
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 6:14pm
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Jedimarine posted:
That takes a LOT of work...a lot of dedication from a fan...you know...just like the one we are on right now. I'd hope that perhaps after a decade of dedicated following and accumulating as a fan...the possibility of perhaps gaining a small fruit from the labor? Yes would this be so bad?
Yes, it absolutely would be bad. Horrible. There are millions of fan fiction stories, fan art images, RPGs, etc. If they were all allowed to get them published and make money, it would seriously hurt the authors. And you can't just allow it for one person, it's all or nothing. JRK has been and still is fine with people playing in her world, but I completely understand that she doesn't want people to make money off of it.
As for the lexicon, it quotes a LOT of her text. She still holds the copyright on her material, so she gets to do with it as she wishes. Even in scholarly works (or even powerpoint presentations) there's a limit to how much copyrighted material you can put in without having to pay for use of copyrighted material.
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. Master of padawanlost, Ultima_1, Jedimaster_JainaSolo, and Vaders_Angel 
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NJOfan215
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
5/6 8:08pm
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Wow, i just lost all respect for JK. What is her problem, she even used the thing.
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yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 12:04am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
- Date Edited:
5/7 12:04am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
yankee8255
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NYCitygurl posted:
Jedimarine posted:
That takes a LOT of work...a lot of dedication from a fan...you know...just like the one we are on right now. I'd hope that perhaps after a decade of dedicated following and accumulating as a fan...the possibility of perhaps gaining a small fruit from the labor? Yes would this be so bad?
Yes, it absolutely would be bad. Horrible. There are millions of fan fiction stories, fan art images, RPGs, etc. If they were all allowed to get them published and make money, it would seriously hurt the authors. And you can't just allow it for one person, it's all or nothing. JRK has been and still is fine with people playing in her world, but I completely understand that she doesn't want people to make money off of it.
As for the lexicon, it quotes a LOT of her text. She still holds the copyright on her material, so she gets to do with it as she wishes. Even in scholarly works (or even powerpoint presentations) there's a limit to how much copyrighted material you can put in without having to pay for use of copyrighted material.
Exactly. It's a very murky legal issue. I'd recommend reading the articles on the WSJ's law blog (links can be found at TLC and Mugglenet)for a good, and unbiased, overview.
In the end, I understand Rowling: she's come to the end of the HP road, and it's clear Harry has a very deep, personal connection for her, almost as if he were one of her children. SO she wants to maintain as much control over the use of the story as possible. She and her staff asked SVA and RDR to receive a manuscript that they could give comments on. She's done the same for a number of other, similar works. Unfortunately, RDR, were rather uncooperative, which incurred JKR's wrath.
The legal issue resolves around how much an author of a lexicon has to add to the material himself to make it "transformative". Is it enough to simply collect the info in alphabetical order, or do you have to add some more original analysis? Does the quality of the analysis matter (JKR says that what little analysis SVA brings is of very poor quality)? I personally think collecting the info in alphabetical order is a significant amount of work, and provides a real service to HP readers, so that it should be a "fair use", but I'm by no means an expert on this legal field. And as legal commentators have pointed out, the case law is all over the place.
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BobaFrank
Registered:
Jul '01
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Date Posted:
5/7 12:11am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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That was great and kudos to Orson Scott Card, the author of my favorite book Ender's Game. Rowling is already a BIZZILIONAIRE. I love HP but she is way out of line w/this lawsuit.
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yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 12:43am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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BobaFrank posted:
That was great and kudos to Orson Scott Card, the author of my favorite book Ender's Game. Rowling is already a BIZZILIONAIRE. I love HP but she is way out of line w/this lawsuit.
Her being a BIZZILIONAIRE is actually irrelevant -- she is going to donate the proceeds of her own encyclopeia to charity.
Her own encyclopedia is a motivation for the suit, though -- she fears that RDR may actually sue her claiming that her encyclopedia steals from the lexicon.
It's actually an interesting thought -- at this point, it's unlikely the lexicon will sell many copies, as JKR's fans consider SVA a traitor. That#s not really a surprise.
You have to wonder if RDR is really interested in publishing the lexicon only so that they can sue Rowling. It would be sort of like domain name squatting -- I discover that cocacola.com, for example, is not registered, so I register it myself, even though I have no connection to the product. When the good people at Coke finalyl come along wanting to register the site, I can essentially blackmail them into paying me an unbelievably high price for the rights.
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A perfect world: a house in the Hamptons with two solaria and a horse named Prickely Pete,
Dr. van Nostrand as my primary care physician,
the O-OT legally available on DVD in a quality worthy of its greatness
and Luke the undisputed hero of Star Wars
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
5/7 7:13am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
- Date Edited:
5/7 7:14am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedimarine
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NYCitygurl posted:
Jedimarine posted:
That takes a LOT of work...a lot of dedication from a fan...you know...just like the one we are on right now. I'd hope that perhaps after a decade of dedicated following and accumulating as a fan...the possibility of perhaps gaining a small fruit from the labor? Yes would this be so bad?
Yes, it absolutely would be bad. Horrible. There are millions of fan fiction stories, fan art images, RPGs, etc. If they were all allowed to get them published and make money, it would seriously hurt the authors. And you can't just allow it for one person, it's all or nothing. JRK has been and still is fine with people playing in her world, but I completely understand that she doesn't want people to make money off of it.
As for the lexicon, it quotes a LOT of her text. She still holds the copyright on her material, so she gets to do with it as she wishes. Even in scholarly works (or even powerpoint presentations) there's a limit to how much copyrighted material you can put in without having to pay for use of copyrighted material.
A great many people make a living doing contracted works of various original ideas...between freelance artists doing sketch work by request, to the entire cosplay industry...there is a ton of this out there.
The truth isn't "it's none or everyone" it was "who to go after and who to let be".
In this case...as the concept of a Rowling edited encyclopedia "could" be something of interest to her...she stepped into it.
I'm curious if the guy made money off ad revenue on his site? In essence, he would be making money of HP then...is she suing him for that too?
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A voice for my thoughts has been lost.
RIP George Carlin
I wonder if heaven is ready for the 7 words.
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yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 7:41am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Jedimarine posted:
I'm curious if the guy made money off ad revenue on his site? In essence, he would be making money of HP then...is she suing him for that too?
I think he said he's made a few thousand dollars profit. Not much, in any event.
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and Luke the undisputed hero of Star Wars
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:10am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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I ignore everything OSC has to say about everything. The man is a brilliant writer for sure and I love his work. He however is a total jackass.
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NYCitygurl
Title: SFFBC and C&G Manager
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:16am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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Jedimarine posted:
NYCitygurl posted:
Jedimarine posted:
That takes a LOT of work...a lot of dedication from a fan...you know...just like the one we are on right now. I'd hope that perhaps after a decade of dedicated following and accumulating as a fan...the possibility of perhaps gaining a small fruit from the labor? Yes would this be so bad?
Yes, it absolutely would be bad. Horrible. There are millions of fan fiction stories, fan art images, RPGs, etc. If they were all allowed to get them published and make money, it would seriously hurt the authors. And you can't just allow it for one person, it's all or nothing. JRK has been and still is fine with people playing in her world, but I completely understand that she doesn't want people to make money off of it.
As for the lexicon, it quotes a LOT of her text. She still holds the copyright on her material, so she gets to do with it as she wishes. Even in scholarly works (or even powerpoint presentations) there's a limit to how much copyrighted material you can put in without having to pay for use of copyrighted material.
A great many people make a living doing contracted works of various original ideas...between freelance artists doing sketch work by request, to the entire cosplay industry...there is a ton of this out there.
The truth isn't "it's none or everyone" it was "who to go after and who to let be".
Contracted works - by the copyright holder. You can't legally make money off of what other people write. If someone were to go try to publish HP fanfic, JKR would be totally within her right to sure that person.
And it doesn't matter how much money she has. It's illegal and unethical to make money off of her work like that.
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In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move. Master of padawanlost, Ultima_1, Jedimaster_JainaSolo, and Vaders_Angel
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Darth-Lando
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 10:18am
Subject:
RE: Orson Scott Card on J.K. Rowling's lawsuit.
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The similarities between Harry Potter and Ender's Game remind me of this:
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