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Author	Topic: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/3/06 1:55pm Subject: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 9/14/06 1:11am (11 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	Consider this a SPOILER THREAD. Probably the only other franchise that competes with Star Wars in my mind- J. Michael Straczynski's masterpiece broke ground in TV with it's epic extremely planned-out story arc and fictional history, paving the road for future shows such as Farscape, Lost and Battlestar galactica to be made possible. Not only that, but it's spin-off material are, in most cases, even more canon than that available for Star Wars, as it has even more input from it's creator, making them as canon as the show itself. It certainly changed the way I looked at TV shows, and while some of it's successors have surpassed it in the area of character stories (BSG and Lost come to mind), the overall mythology and story arc of B5 has yet to be surpassed by any other TV show, IMO. Babylon 5 is composed of 5 seasons, 6 TV movies and the TNT ( ::patooie!:: ) aborted spin-off series, Crusade, which had 13 episodes before TNT killed it: -The Gathering -Season 1: Signs & Portents -Season 2: The Coming of Shadows -Season 3: Point of No Return -Season 4: No Surrender, No Retreat -Thirdspace -Season 5: The Wheel of Fire -The River of Souls -The Legend of the Rangers: To Live and Die in Starlight -A Call To Arms -Crusade -In the Beginning The notable spin-off material includes: -The Shadow Within by Jeanne Cavelos -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Casting Shadows by Jeanne Cavelos -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Summoning Light by Jeanne Cavelos -The Passing of the Techno-Mages: Invoking Darkness by Jeanne Cavelos -To Dream in the City of Sorrows by Kathryn Drennan -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi-Corp by J. Gregory Keyes -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Deadly Relations: bester Ascendant by J. Gregory Keyes -"The Psi-Corp Trilogy" - Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester by J. Gregory Keyes -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: The Long Night of Centauri Prime by Peter David -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: Armies of Light and Dark by Peter David -"The Centauri Trilogy" - Legions of Fire: Out of Darkness by Peter David -In the Beginning novelization by Peter David -Thirdspace novelization by Peter David -A Call to Arms novelization by Robert Sheckley Comics: -In Valen's Name #1-3 by J. Michael Straczynski & Mike Collins -#1: In Darkness Find Me by J. Michael Straczynski & Michael Netzer -#2: Treason by J. Michael Straczynski & Michael Netzer -#3: In Harm's Way by Mark Moretti & Carlos Garzon -#4: The Price of Peace by Mark Moretti & Michael Netzer -#5: Shadows Past and Present by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway -#6: Against the Odds by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway -#7: Survival the Hard Way by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway -#8: Silent Enemies by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway -#9: Duet for Human and Narn in C Sharp by David Gerrold & Rebecca Guay -#10: Coda for Human and Narn in B Flat by David Gerrold & Rebecca Guay -#11: The Psi Corps and You! by Tim DeHaas & John Ridgway And, now, JMS is publishing a limited 15 volume series containing all his scripts for Babylon 5, including introductions for each episode, photos from his collection and even his original notes. That and B5 quote merchandise can be found at The Joe Store at www.b5scripts.com . -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/3/06 2:01pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	A comic series is coming together, too. I'm looking forward to that. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5 Obama '08
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/3/06 2:14pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/3/06 2:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	Yeah, we also almost had a theatrical film last year, but that fell apart. Which is a shame, though at least it avoided them recasting Galen (as Peter Woodward was busy with a pet project of his at the time), which really would have sucked. Maybe JMS will be able to get things running again. We need to get the Telepath War told before the actors are too old. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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MariahJade2 Title: FanFic Archive Editor Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 1/3/06 3:03pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I'm ashamed to admit I've never seen any of the TV movies, just the series. -----signature----- Have a question or suggestion for the Archive? PM me anytime. "That's the thing about yer Chinese Death Stars - an hour after being killed, you're alive again." Get a life.
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/3/06 5:16pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/3/06 5:20pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	In the Beginning is the best of the bunch- it's hard not to tear up during the President's speech on the eve of The Battle of the Line, or Londo's narration towards the end of the war. And Kosh actually sounding sad in the one scene. A Call to Arms is the next best one. Good story and great action all around. Thirdspace is solid, and though it suffers from "side-adventure inserted into Season 4" syndrome, it has a bit more of a horror aspect to things that is really interesting. Legend of the Rangers was decent, and obviously was designed to be a pilot film for a potential series. It gets points for some fun characters (the Minbari, Narn and Drazi ones being the most entertaining) and a unique, if slightly anticlimactic, resolution, and, of course, G'Kar. Unfortunately it suffers in a few places- the 3D weapons system didn't work out (though that's mainly due to the fact that they came up with it at the last second after they couldn't afford what they originally wanted), a few of the supporting crew members get little development (but would obviously have been expanded had it gone to series) and they use the Ranger mantra of "We live for the one, we die for the one" waaaaaay too much that it becomes very irritating. Still, I have no doubt it would have worked out very well if it had gone to series- it just unfortunately had the poor luck of airing against what ended up being one of the most watched football games ever. River of Souls is also decent, but feels like an extended episode of the series rather than a movie. Some good humor though, and lighter fare than the other films. The Gathering is intriguing, but as its the pilot, so many things feel off that it's hard to enjoy it as much as the others. They have a boxset of all the movies, shy LOTR, which is getting a standalone release in march. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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JediTrilobite Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/3/06 9:58pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I love Babylon 5. The entire arc, the characters, almost everything about it. Great series. It would be really, really cool if Zoic went and redid all the special effects. -----signature----- Ever wonder what happened during the clone wars? Visit: http://www.theclonewarz.net My Blogs: http://carryyouaway.blogspot.com , http://jeditrilobite.wordpress.com , http://tk3220.wordpress.com TK-3220, NEG VT Rep
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Lord_Ogli Title: •Former FF-UK:N CR FF-UK Trivia Winner Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 1/17/06 3:52am Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I too am a big B5 fan and I love re-watching it for all them little details i missed the first time around. Such as in the Gathering where Kosh meets (albeit the fake) Sinclair and he greets him as "Entilzar(sp?) Valen" Just a perfect example of how close it ended up being to the original idea despite all the problems they had getting it made. I love all parts of B5 but my least fave has to be Legand of the Rangers. To me it just got too many things wrong. Suposedly mimbari ships that just don't look at all mimbari. The fact that the rangers would kick someone out for not throwing away his lifer neadlessly. That stuped weapons system. Oh and at then end, where they see B5, Where was Epsilon? Its still good for some parts, I'm just not sure if the good outweiged the bad in this one. -----signature----- M.I.A
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JediTrilobite Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 1/17/06 8:18am Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I haven't seen any of the movies yet, my friend who has all of the boxed sets doesn't have that one yet. -----signature----- Ever wonder what happened during the clone wars? Visit: http://www.theclonewarz.net My Blogs: http://carryyouaway.blogspot.com , http://jeditrilobite.wordpress.com , http://tk3220.wordpress.com TK-3220, NEG VT Rep
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/17/06 10:59am Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I could be wrong, but it's possible the "Entil'zha Valen" line wasn't added in until the Special Edition. As for Legend of the Rangers, I think it has a lot going for it, but it definitely suffers from being rushed and underbudgeted (weapons system, etc). -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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sidious618 Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 1/17/06 3:01pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	LOST better than B5? I think not T2ndQ. -----signature----- But in purple, I'm stunning!- Londo Mollari, Babylon 5 Obama '08
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/17/06 3:15pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	Not the show as a whole, but in certain areas, yes, Lost has surpassed B5, but it wouldn't have been able to do so without B5. B5 as a whole is still superior. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/21/06 10:48am Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	For the past few weeks, I had a very satisfying experience. It's unlike any I had before, and I kinda doubt that I will ever go through anything like it any time soon. Namely, I had the distinct pleasure of seeing the entire Babylon 5 series back-to-back, starting at "The Gathering" all the way to "Sleeping in the Light". All that, without knowing any sort of spoilers, without knowing where the storyline was heading into, and without knowing who was going to survive and who wasn't. It was a bloody satisfying experience. Honestly, I've been quite a bit hyped about it ever since I've finished it, so I hopw you folks won't mind if I pour out my thoughts here, this might be quite long. Feel free to ignore, regardless, but I really have to get it off my chest. (naturally, the rest of this particular post will have distinct B5 spoilers) Season 1 started out quite nicely. Although I did get a Star Trek vibe from it at the start, it quickly dissolved when I started to notice neat lil' touches. The episodes seemed to overall fit on their own, and not quite the big arc as I had initially heard of. Naturally, as I would realised later, season 1 is practically about introduction us to the universe, as well as setting things up in various subtle ways. When I started to notice little continuity nods here and there, even minor nods to events that happened prior, I started to get into it. I have to admit that I found the vision that Sinclair got about the destruction of B5 rather haunted me throughout the rest of the seasons. Overall, I liked quite a few characters, and took a very quick liking to Londo. When I generally mention him, I get the image in my head of him laughing at someone else's expense with a drink in his hand at the casino. That's how I generally liked him. At times, I felt that too much focus was placed on Sinclair, especially when he went into dangerous missions on his own. The rest of the cast seemed solid, aside from Talia Winters, whom felt off for me. Points go out for Morden, whom I found to be genuinely scary. Generally, the latter episodes got me hooked. Kosh seemed to be more than a simple one-trick joke, something odd was going on with Delenn, I was curious about Morden's 'associates', and events were set in motions on Earth. Babylon 5 had captured my interest, I was along for the ride. Season 2 is where I started to see what Babylon 5 was all about. The storyarcs began to develop. The Shadows were starting to reveal themselves. A few answers were given, and more questions raised. A new captain introduced, seemingly out of nowhere(which jarred me a bit). And of course, the "The Coming of Shadows" episode. I think that I was strapped in at that point. What had seemed to me to be overall a nice way to have snide comments and a possible plot for a episode storylines became an actual war. And was over surprisingly fast, but had genuine consequences. At that point, Londo was a marked man. He had the blood of a few thousand aliens on his hands, more would come because of his decisions... frankly, there was no way that he would get a happy end, I was sure of it. And as the latter seasons would show, he would pay dearly. G'Kar evolved to a bit of a likeable character. Sheridan grew on me. Garibaldi was the fun roguish type. More was revealed each episode about the nature of the characters, organisations and the races... things were heating up for one big conflict. One thing that I liked is how Season 2 ended. Overall, I found the story to get rather dark with little hope at all, until Kosh revealed himself. It genuinely gave a feeling that there was still hope. I mean, the good guys had a bloody angel on their side. Season 3 is where the build-up was over. The pieces were in place, and by George, they were going to be utilised. The great shadow war started. Earth actually became bad, and Babylon 5 split off from Earth, one twist that really had my head spinning, I completely hadn't expected it to happen. And while it was all happening, a subplot that had been prepared with Dr. Franklin also took off. It really wasn't surprising to have one big storyline going on throughout the episodes which would serve as a sort of a B-Plot to the main plot, until it would be resolved in an episode of its own. War Without End... what a nice two-parter. Not only did it take care of Sinclair's plot line that had seemed to be dropped overall, it answered so many questions. Suddenly, the seemingly random "Babylon Squared" didn't seem so random at all. Sheridan and Sinclair working together. And Londo and G'Kar's destiny revealed, one that has been hinted at from the very beginning, yet still completely different. Moving on, Marcus was a fine addition to the cast. Zack was a surprise. Granted, he had a larger part to play in the second season, and he kinda felt as if he had always been there since the first two seasons. The "Point of no Return" season ended with a bang in the final episodes. Kosh was murdered. The nature of the Vorlon/Shadow relationship explained(instead of it being agood/bad war, it was more law/chaos), and there was an odd lull in the war as both sides seemed to be gearing up for the final battle. Many characters had genuinely grown. Heck, I began to take a liking to Vir, another character whom I overall disliked from the start. Season 4 would draw the two mayor conflicts(ie. The Shadows and Earth) to a nice and satisfying conclusion. I was surprised how fast the Shadow conflict concluded early on in the season. Again nicely done with various storylines interwoven in the early episodes. The return of Sheridan, the G'Kar and Londo plotline, the Vorlons and Shadows openly waging war, and the setting up for the final battle. The latter part of the season wrapped up the situation nicely on Earth. Not sure what more I can say about Season 4. It had a few bits of surprises and twists, especially regarding Garibaldi. Londo and G'Kar had their fun little adventure, and had seemed to become the friendly rivals I had envisioned them to become at some point. Marcus, a character I bloody liked, was killed for a romance I had hoped to develop. Naturally, kinda peeved of it, but again, so in-character, and utilised a device way back from the second season. "Rising Star" seemed to be a nice epilogue and "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" could've easily been the finale of a great series. Gotta give them kudos for DoFS. It showed that, despite the fact that there will be many conflicts and wars following the series, humanity would ultimately develop into the peaceful civilization that the cast wanted to create, thanks to the first steps that Babylon 5 created towards that goal. Season 5 was, therefore, a surprise for me. With the two big storylines that had been built up from the start, I was afraid that this one was going to be #1. Filler stand-alone episodes, or #2. A set-up for the next series. Again, I knew nothing about B5, didn't want to look it up on the Internet out of fear for spoilers, but had heard something about a spin-off series. For the last time, JMS managed to surprise me as season 5 was, as I should've expected, #3. Wrapping things up. Various events that were hinted at in the season 4 finale were shown, the characters were maneuvered around towards a nice reason for departing the Babylon 5 station, and the babysteps of the Alliance were shown. With the way that things appeared to be breaking up near the end of the season with the Centauri, I was still expecting that this season would end on a downer, and I would never see how things would really turn out for the cast. Many aces were still up the writer's sleeves. I have to dedicate a paragraph for Londo. When his homeworld was bombarded, he surrendered, and became the Emperor, everything fell into place for me. I finally understood how he had gotten to, what would ultimately become, his destiny that was shown in War without End. And as I had hoped, he did pay for the decision he made back in Season 1, that much was shown as he was sitting alone in the throne room. When I compare that Londo with the Londo that we saw at the beginning of the series... well, he's an incredible tragic character. Expertly handled. "Sleeping in Light"... well, beautiful finale for the series. A glimpse of the future, the final hours of Sheridan shown, and the actual destruction of Babylon 5. I take it that I'm not the only one who was somewhat choked upon seeing the station that had been the centerpoint of an 80-hour storyline blown up? It was beautifully done. Having learned afterwards that it was JMS himself who shut down the lights on B5 just adds a bit of artistic irony to it. Let me just say it plain and simple... Babylon 5 is an incredible series. And to have been able to watch it in a manner of weeks without ANY spoilers only made the experience that much better for me. This is how sci-fi should be done more often. -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 1/21/06 1:10pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/21/06 1:11pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	Yeah, the show is an incredible experience- I avoided most spoilers while wtaching the initial widescreen Sci-fi airing, and it blew me away. >>I take it that I'm not the only one who was somewhat choked upon seeing the station that had been the centerpoint of an 80-hour storyline blown up?<< I think that scene had that effect on most people. The music is beautiful for that moment. And yes, there was a short-lived spinoff series called Crusade (which picked up from a TV movie called A Call to Arms) but it was purposely sabitaged and eventually aborted by TNT. It had a lot of potential though, and was quite a good series, if watched in the right order (the DVD order represents the almost incoherant original airing order TNT forced). There are also 5 TV movies (not counting The Gathering): -In the Beginning (the story of the Earth-Minbari War, as narrated by Emperor Londo; this one is great) -Thirdspace (a sidestory set in the middle of Season 4, revolving around an artifact found in hyperspace) -River of Souls (set on B5 a couple years after Sheridan left, involves the Soul Hunters) -The Legend of the Rangers (a backdoor pilot for a new spinoff series that came to fruition, revolving around a Ranger crew) -A Call to Arms (sets up Crusade) All of them, minus LOTR (which is an upcoming seperate release), are in a DVD bxoset. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." "If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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DarthReven Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 1/21/06 1:58pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	I love B5! Now granted, i've only seen the Begining, the Gathering, and the 1st season, but i'm hooked! Its So wonderfully made! -----signature----- Adopted by starwarsbeauty Mandalore and Semi Ex-Sentinel of the Acolytes of Revan I'm not suffering from insanity, I'M ENJOYING IT!!! Xbox Live Gamertag: OldManBindo
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Juliet316 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 1/21/06 6:16pm Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	Here's a little bit of trivia those of you just getting into B5 may not know: "Sleeping in Light" was actually taped immediately after Season Four as JMS thought thought there would be no fifth season in syndication and JMS wanted to wrap up the series' most crucial points for the fans in the event he couldn't find an avenue for a fifth season. So "Sleeping in Light" was actually meant to be the Fourth Season finalie but was held until the end of Season Five after TNT came in and produce and air season five on their cable station. Additionally Claudia Christian (Ivanova) left the series amid a messy contract dispute after Season Four. Since Ivanova was supposed to be the Captain of Babylon Five in Season Five, Tracey Scroggins Captain was created at the last minute, hence why the only time we see Ivanova in Season Five is in "Sleeping in Light." Which actually worked out better seeing as they had just killed Marcus off ( ) at the end of Season Four. -----signature----- Juliet RIP Eddie Guerrero Tangible Dreams: http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/21029022/?10 The Heart of Betrayal: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/23822708/p1/?17
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burrie Registered: May '00	Date Posted: 1/22/06 4:41am Subject: RE: We Have To Create the Future or Others Will Do It For Us: Babylon 5
	The2ndQuest Mmm, truth be told, I have very little interest in learning more about the further exploits of the Babylon 5 season, mostly because of the excellent way things were summarised at the end of Season 4 and 5. However, I did see "The Beginning" two days ago, which I have to admit was a nice way to go full-circle for me. A nice prequel to show how events got started for everyone. The only real complaint I had is the involvement of the many B5 characters. Of all the Narns out there, G'Kar had to be the one who was doing business with Earth? Of all the Centauri out there, Londo had to be the one who sabotaged a mission, leading to the Earth-Mimbari war to continue? I could understand Sheridan undergoing an important mission, but Franklin and G'Kar joining him on said mission? Granted, it is understandable to have familiar faces, but it still felt kinda off and made the universe seem a bit smaller. I could live with it, mind you. Those nitpickings aside, I was amazed at how young the characters looked, especially Londo. I take it that this was filmed after Season 5, and the work they did to make the characters look younger was handled bloody well. And despite the fact that I did know how things were going to turn out, some scenes were beautiful. As with the Babylon 5 destruction, I take it that I wasn't the only one who was choked up when the president made her final plea for everyone to hold off the invasion, so only a precious few could escape and live on? Finally, I liked that Londo was still able to entertain and tell his story right before he died. DarthReven Ach, hang in there, and I hope that you won't get to see too many spoilers. You're in for one helluva ride. Juliet316 I've been doing quite a bit of reading regarding Babylon 5 after finishing the final season, but hadn't come across that, thanks Juliet. I suppose the fifth season finale would've worked nicely at the end of the fourth season, but I'm glad JMS got to wrap things up his way. At least this way, we got to see that the crew's actions would, ultimately, lead up to humanity become one of the Older Races. Now I finally understand why Lochley didn't seem to have any sort of role in the Season 4 finale as it is. Granted, most of the crew had only known her for less than a year, and her role wasn't really as big as the rest of the cast, but I was surprised to note her absence during the farewell of Babylon 5 scene. Regarding Claudia, I'm still somewhat confused on that. From what I've read, she had to sign a contract before a certain date, and in the end, she simply hadn't given any word about what her plans were, forcing to the producers to eject her from the fifth season? Continuing on, from what I've heard, Ivanova was originally going to play the role that Lyta was doing? ie. the whole falling-into-love-with-Byron, joining the telepaths, yadda-yadda-yadda? On one hand, I can see that this might've worked out nicely(putting her latent telepath abilities to good use and the previous tragedy with Marcus could play a role in it), but I think that I kinda prefer that Lyta got the role. Overall, I always found her treatment, while understandable, rather unfair with the rest of the cast. She had quite a good reason to turn against the station, she had always pretty much been left out of the group, only invited when they needed her. Byron gave her a sense of what friendship could be about. Overall, I don't see how Ivanova could've been in her place. On the other hand, I take it that the storyline would've been altered significantly had Ivanova taken that role. I've read about these trapdoors that JMS had for his characters, and I suppose Lyta was Ivanova's. But still, with the lack of Ivanova in the final season, Marcus' sacrifice seemed a bit... off. Granted, it was in-character, but it's too bad that they never really went further into it. -----signature----- "The console to unlock the door is probably hidden in some room twelve floors up, or something. How does that make sense?" - K. Katarn "Ace stole the shuttle from Wedge. An embarrassing tactical mishap quietly forgotten." - Best explanation for Tydirium
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