Jedi Council Forums » Science Fiction and Fantasy » SFF: Films and Television »
Register | Login | Search | Help | New Boards | Harassment Policy | Rules of the JC | TOS | Markup Codes
Post Reply | Active Topic Notification | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic
« 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 » - Previous | Next | Reload
Author Topic: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
The2ndQuest 
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
 Registered: Jan '00
45729_Ithorian "Hammerhead"
Date Posted: 12/28/07 10:22pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 12/28/07 10:37pm (3 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
Londo and G'Kar, by far, have the greatest character arcs in the series (not to mention the best actors). Initially Takashima was going to be in the series proper, with Susan as her 2nd, but would have been revealed to have been involved in The Gathering conspiracy and Susan would have then taken her place. When the actress playing Takashima didn't sign on for the series (partially due to WB's dislike of the actress's altered performance originally aired, which they themselves had requested changed in the first place), Susan got bumped up from the start and other plot bits were transferred to other characters.


On a corporate level, Paramount did all they could to strongarm B5 out of the market, implying stations that carried B5 wouldn't get certain Paramount programming (Trek in particular). JMS had pitched B5 to Paramount initially, but it was rejected. DS9, as a concept, was apparently fast tracked as soon as B5 got picked up at WB so it could get on the air first.

On a cast/crew level, according to JMS, there were DS9 actors who privately acknowledged DS9 was based on B5 in their view.

There was also a case of one recurring guest character meeting his fate prematurely and offscreen due to being doublebooked on both B5 & DS9 and choosing DS9. The actor later appeared on Jeremiah, another JMS show, and was given a very long monologue that required several takes which JMS never had any intention of including in the final cut in it's majority. Ha.

 

-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sniper_Wolf 
Registered: Nov '02
46176_River Tam
Date Posted: 1/1 2:37pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
So yeah, evil Walter Koenig is god.

 

-----signature-----
Winner of a Super Golden Ewok™ award.
I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Juliet316 
Registered: Apr '05
23585_Natalie Portman
Date Posted: 1/1 7:41pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
Sniper_Wolf posted:
So yeah, evil Walter Koenig is god.


It definitely shows more of what he can do as an actor than Trek gave him to do as Chekov.

 

-----signature-----
Juliet
RIP Eddie Guerrero rose
Tangible Dreams: http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/21029022/?10
The Heart of Betrayal: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/23822708/p1/?17
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
The2ndQuest 
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
 Registered: Jan '00
45729_Ithorian "Hammerhead"
Date Posted: 1/1 10:12pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/1 10:16pm (3 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
Yeah, agreed- Bester is a real treat. His relatievly minor presence in Season 1 is only a taste of Walter's better work later on. It's the small touches in his performance that they usually don't make a point to focus on but yet exist- like how Bester's left hand is crippled. Always wondered if that was a trait JMS came up with or one Walter added.

"Be seeing you."

 

-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Juliet316 
Registered: Apr '05
23585_Natalie Portman
Date Posted: 1/3 6:37pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
The2ndQuest posted:
Yeah, agreed- Bester is a real treat. His relatievly minor presence in Season 1 is only a taste of Walter's better work later on. It's the small touches in his performance that they usually don't make a point to focus on but yet exist- like how Bester's left hand is crippled. Always wondered if that was a trait JMS came up with or one Walter added.

"Be seeing you."


According to what I read of JMS' comments on The Lurker's Guide, apparently it was Walter's.

 

-----signature-----
Juliet
RIP Eddie Guerrero rose
Tangible Dreams: http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/21029022/?10
The Heart of Betrayal: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/23822708/p1/?17
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sniper_Wolf 
Registered: Nov '02
46176_River Tam
Date Posted: 1/7 8:15pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
About halfway through season one now. Just finished the season's title episode in fact. I agree with T2Q that Sinclair and Garibaldi has grown on me quite a bit despite earlier reservations. Plus Morden is great as well, though I find that episode being followed up by a boxing episode to be a tad odd.

 

-----signature-----
Winner of a Super Golden Ewok™ award.
I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Leto II 
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 1/7 9:13pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/7 10:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
Regarding Season 1 (and a couple of thoughts on "TKO," the boxing-episode):

Because opinions vary so widely on the episodes and the seasons, I think the most useful thing to look at is the consensus view of fandom at large over the past 10 years. And there really is such a consensus. The interesting thing is, that if you look at the episodes that are almost universally considered "bad" ("bad" in this case meaning "sub-standard for Babylon 5"), you'll find three things:

  1. There are very few of them. In the entire five-year, 110-episode run, I think there may be six or seven episodes that a clear majority of fans would point to as very weak.

  2. All of them, without exception, have worthwhile elements, sometimes very worthwhile ones. (One of the most widely-panned episodes in Season 3 -- "Grey 17 is Missing" -- has a very shaky "A" story, but the "B" story is not only excellent in and of itself, it sets up an alliance that proves vital in S4.)

  3. JMS himself will be one of the people piling on...and they are pretty much all scripts he wrote himself.

And don't forget what "bad" means in this context: "Routine," "standard," "I've seen this before."

"Infection," for example, could have shot for any of the Trek shows if you changed the names and a few details. It wouldn't have made a horrible Trek episode, just an unexceptional one. That's why it is such a bad B5 episode. B5 raised the bar. (Trek at its best produced great SF television. But the signal-to-noise ratio on every Trek show was a lot worse than on B5. There was a lower percentage of really good episodes in all the Trek shows, and much higher proportions of both "ho-hum" installments and absolute dogs.)

"TKO" was a standard "fish-out-of-water" and Rocky-style sports story. But the "B"-story did a lot to humanize Susan Ivanova, and it deepened her character. I'll put up with a standard bounce on a boxing movie to advance the development of a major character.

Similarly, "Infection" went beyond its clichéd "ancient weapon" story and its preachy "there-is-no-Master-Race" message to introduce the shady Interplanetary Expeditions, and have EarthGov's bio-weapons division show up to take possession of all the evil scientist's data. (This would be like Starfleet Intelligence showing up at the end of "The Doomsday Machine" to seize all of the records of the incident from the Enterprise computers, swear eveyone to secrecy, and then go off to try to duplicate the thing themselves.)

Even when re-watching the show from prequel/pilot to finale over a decade later, I've still never found myself skipping over episodes like "Infection" (as much as my brain screams otherwise) because the good elements in the ep barely -- just barely -- make the entire thing worth watching. Fortunately, the lion's share of the rest of the series is an entirely different story.

Particularly from Season 2 on. You're in for a ride.

 

-----signature-----
"Pronouncing the first 'r' in 'February' is like making a homemade seaQuest DSV uniform -- it's a crime
against breeding, taste, intelligence, and humanity itself; and very few people appreciate the effort."
-- Lore Fitzgerald Sjoberg
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
The2ndQuest 
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
 Registered: Jan '00
45729_Ithorian "Hammerhead"
Date Posted: 1/7 10:51pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/7 10:56pm (3 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
Actually, from discussing things here with Sniper Wolf, I rewatched Season 1 a few days ago (just turned it on in the background at my store and let it run, so it it only took 2 o 3 days.. of course, naturall, the most people happened to walk in while Infecion was playing... wink ), I have to agree- even the bad episodes have good B or C plots, or at least, in the case of Infection, have a great little scene like Sinclair's answer to the space question. but because the A plots are what theya re, they're just not episodes that are going to win over new viewers to the series (especially ones that feature a few of the more generic forehead aliens that thankfully become far less prominent as the series progresses). It's also a shame that a lot of the Garabaldi/Sinclair freidnship plotpoints tend to fall amongst a lot fo these episodes (likely because they wanted to establish it early on, despite early episodes of shows tending to be the rougher ones).

Signs & Portents is still one of my favorite episodes- one of the first real TV space battles to use tactics (like setting up the gauntlet), a couple moments that make you go "what the hell did I just see, and when is the next episode on?" and a great tag with the vision of the future (not to mention combined with a great use of the B5 theme- we don't see it used much in that capacity after this point). It also has Molari's response to Morden's question, which is just fantastic stuff- "I want it all back- the WAY THAT IT WAS!"

 

-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sniper_Wolf 
Registered: Nov '02
46176_River Tam
Date Posted: 1/10 8:58pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
So tell me about the B5 EU. I know JMS seems to have a lot stronger influence on the B5 EU that most other franchises.

 

-----signature-----
Winner of a Super Golden Ewok™ award.
I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Leto II 
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 1/11 1:28pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/11 3:07pm (7 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
Right from the very beginning of the show, JMS declared his intention to do things differently than the Star Trek people, and that was to have the non-filmic licensed fiction be virtually every bit as canonical as the actual filmed episodes themselves. There are a number of original novels published by Del Rey, novelizations of three of the TNT movies, around half-a-dozen short stories (several of them written by JMS himself), a monthly DC comic book series, and one DC mini-series.

All of them were either written directly by Joe personally, or else their authors were provided extremely detailed story-outlines straight from Joe on what he wanted to see in them, where they should go, where they should end up, and precisely how they would fit into the greater filmic B5 universe.

In effect, every storyline came personally from the series creator. For each separate novel, JMS wrote a structured, 30-page outline; the authors were free to bring their own personal creative flourishes to the books, but they still followed Joe's specifications to the letter on the broad beats. The earliest novels published by Dell didn't initially have this level of input; later on, Straczynski personally seized conceptual control over the novel-writing program, demanding that they fit into the canon of the universe.

It is true that if JMS ever does a future movie or TV project that overlaps with one of the books, and he decides to change some small element, he will. He treats his own writing in the same way. The destruction of the Black Star in In the Beginning doesn't quite match Sheridan's earlier description, because when it came time to actually show it, JMS took a different approach for dramatic reasons.

Similarly, Zathras's capture in "War Without End" contradicts the Babylon 4 commander's description of the same event in "Babylon Squared" -- because it would have taken too much time to show that version. But for the most part, the books that JMS has said are "canon" ARE canon, at least in the broad strokes, and as much a part of the "real" story as anything in the filmed TV series itself.

Because all the novels cover somewhat overlapping periods of time, there are only three pieces of advice I would give you:

  1. Read The Shadow Within before the Technomage books, because Jeanne Cavelos wrote all four novels, and characters introduced in Shadow return in the Technomage volumes.

  2. Read the Technomage books before you read the Centauri trilogy, both because they come first chronologically (the Technomage books run from 2257 to 2261, the Centauri books start in 2262), and because characters from the former appear in the latter.

  3. To Dream in the City of Sorrows can be read pretty much anywhere you like.

I would also highly recommend the Psi Corps trilogy if you want to understand that part of the B5 universe. The books cover a period from the mid-22nd century, when verifiable Human telepaths first emerge into the population (right at the same time we make first contact with the Centauri), until 2282.

Many fans have picked this as their favorite of the three trilogies. The second two volumes, which focus on Bester and more familiar events, were more to my liking. BTW, don't expect to find out much about the Telepath War here. It takes place off-stage, in between volumes 2 and 3, and is frequently referred to, but not directly addressed, in the final book.

Like the Centauri and Technomage Trilogies, the Teep books by J. Gregory Keyes were based on outlines by JMS, and are considered canon.

The Shadow Within is about Sheridan's first mission as commander of the EAS Agamemnon, Anna's (and Morden's) mission to Z'ha'dum, the Sheridans' marriage, Kosh, the nature of the Vorlon transport, and an attempt to sabotage Babylon 5. I'd read it.

The Teep books cover the most temporal ground. Volume One tells the story of the emergence of Human telepaths in the 2150s, and traces the impact this event has on society, on the mundanes and on the teeps themselves. It ends with the birth of a telepath who will one day be known as Alfred Bester. Volume Two is almost Bester's biography, taking him from childhood to his career as a Psi Cop. It ends with Bester leaving to visit Babylon 5 for the first time, in pursuit of a teep named Jason Ironheart.

The final volume picks up the story many years later, after the Telepath War (all of the sequel series, TV movies, and novels pass over this period in silence, except for a few broad hints and the obvious result -- the disbanding of the Psi Corps. One short story DOES actually take place during the war itself -- "The Nautilus Coil."). It finds Bester a fugitive war criminal, staying one step ahead of EarthGov, the Alliance, and Michael Garibaldi, and follows his story until the end of his life.

If anyone wanted to read the books in more-or-less strict chronological order, the list would look something like this:

Dark Genesis: The Birth of the Psi Corps
In the Beginning**
Strange Relations: Bester Ascendent**

The Shadow Within**

The Technomage Trilogy #1: Casting Shadows
The Technomage Trilogy #2: Summoning Light

To Dream in the City of Sorrows

The Technomage Trilogy #3: Invoking Darkness

Thirdspace

A Call to Arms**

The Centauri Trilogy: Legions of Fire
  1. The Long Night of Centauri Prime
  2. Armies of Light and Dark
  3. Out of the Darkness
Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester

** Strange Relations and To Dream in the City of Sorrows both cover a period of several years, so technically, the events of The Shadow Within take place in between (or even during) chapters of Strange Relations. To Dream has a framing story set in late 2260, while the bulk of the narrative takes place in 2259 and early '60 (after issues #1-4 of the DC Comics series), with flashbacks to 2258.

So, it and Strange Relations overlap at several points -- and both overlap with parts of the first two Technomage books. Likewise, In the Beginning overlaps somewhat with Telepath Book #2, and A Call to Arms takes place in between Books #1 and #2 of the Centauri trilogy.

Short of sending a reader from book to book (and back) in mid-chapter, the list above is about as chronological as one can reasonably get, I think. (Now waiting for someone to point out some obvious error I've made.)

Also: Find copies of the three-issue DC miniseries B5: In Valen's Name (but only AFTER you've read To Dream in the City of Sorrows and watched the TV series up through Season 4). Written by JMS and Peter David, the series is set early in the fourth year, and covers the re-discovery of the 1,000-year-old Babylon 4 space station, Sinclair/Valen's role in the last Shadow War, Zathras's fate, and several other major shocking surprises.

Well worth picking up.

There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that the DVDs are bringing all kinds of new fans to the show -- fans would would certainly appreciate the additonal story material of the movie novelizations, the three trilogies, To Dream in the City of Sorrows and The Shadow Within -- but who may not even know that the books exist, and therefore ignore all B5 fiction. Pity.

 

-----signature-----
"Pronouncing the first 'r' in 'February' is like making a homemade seaQuest DSV uniform -- it's a crime
against breeding, taste, intelligence, and humanity itself; and very few people appreciate the effort."
-- Lore Fitzgerald Sjoberg
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
The2ndQuest 
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
 Registered: Jan '00
45729_Ithorian "Hammerhead"
Date Posted: 1/11 3:33pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/11 3:39pm (2 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
For perspective of where the books land in relation to the seasons (though this is not to say that they might lack spoilers for subsequent seasons' events), and ignoring the placement of the Psi-corptrilogy since it spans so much time:

-In the Beginning non-frame story
-The Shadow Within
-The Gathering
-Season 1
-Techno-Mage Book 1
-To Dream in the City Sorrows (frame story set 3/4ths through Season 3)
-Techno-Mage Book 2
-Season 2
-Season 3
-Techno-Mages Book 3 (starts mid-Season 3, ends after Season 3)
-Season 4
-Personal Agendas (a Londo/G'Kar novel set early in Season 4, mostly canon, was the first to get some JMS control, IIRC, but has some fudging involved)
-In Valen's Name comic (set mid-Season 4)
-Season 5 (not counting final episode)
-Centauri trilogy Book 1 (spans to just before A Call to Arms)
-River of Souls
-Legend of the Rangers
-A Call to Arms
-Crusade
-Centauri trilogy Book 2
-Centauri trilogy Book 3

There's also a short story worth tracking down call "Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic", set way after everything else, but it involves the ultimate fates of two key characters.



Personally, I'd highly reccomend the Centauri trilogy (actually called the Legions of Fire Trilogy). It was the first B5 book series I had read after watching the series, and it was a blast- Peter David catches the voices of the characters perfectly, you can hear them saying the dialogue in your head. I'd go as far as to say this is Season 6, even though B5's actual role in it is minimal due to it focusing on the Centauri, but this is the series that really wraps up the loose plotthreads only briefly touched upon or implied in the series revolving around several main characters, as well as enhancing the scenario that occurs in A Call to Arms. Another supporting character in the series really comes into his own in this trilogy too.

I only got part way through the Techno-Made trilogy (due to time issues, not the enjoyability of the series), but I'd suggest watching Crusade first*, since a lot of the Techno-Mage characters that appear in the book are introduced there.

Haven't read the Psi-Corp tril or TDITCOS yet, though they're at the top of my backlog once I get caught up on some SW books. TDITCOS has a couple offscreen but important events, and gives you more of Sinclair after he's replaced by Sheridan on B5, as well as sets up elements that get a small payoff in the In Valen's Name comic. The Psi-Corp tril seems to have a couple elements that were later referenced in an unproduced Crusade episode's script.


*I forget if I posted this earlier or not, but if and when you get around to watching Crusade, I'd reccomend the following viewing order, as it provides a better sense of character arcs, plot continuity, spreads certain character apparances out better, and is just, in almost all respects, better than the DVD/original broadcast order; and slightly improved over the Sci-fi order, so long as you ignore the uniform switching issue:

(the disc #'s refer to the DVD release)

0) War Zone - Disc 1(personally I wouldn't even bother watching this episode and just start with the better-first-episode RTN, but if you watch it, this is where it's set)
1) Racing the Night - Disc 3
2) The Memory of War - Disc 3
3) The Needs of Earth - Disc 3
4) The Long Road - Disc 1
5) Visitors from Down the Street - Disc 3
6) The Well of Forever - Disc 1
7) Ruling from the Tomb - Disc 2
8) Patterns of the Soul - Disc 2
9) Each Night I Dream of Home - Disc 4
10) The Path of Sorrows - Disc 1
11) The Rules of the Game - Disc 2
12) Appearances and Other Deceits - Disc 2

(following this with the three unproduced scripts, if you can find copies of them)
14) To the Ends of the Earth
15) Value Judgements
22) The End of the Line

 

-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Leto II 
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 1/12 10:07am Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5 - Date Edited: 1/12 11:26am (17 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
Sniper_Wolf posted:
The2ndQuest posted:
-In the Beginning (you've already seen, but for completeness sake...) has the bulk of it's story set 10 years before Season 1, with the framing story scenes set 16 years after the second-to-last episode of Season 5, and 3 years prior to the final episode of the series).
-The Gathering was the original series pilot, and is set a few months before Season 1 (it's pretty rough compared to the rest of the series, so bare with it and some of those Season 1 eps wink ).
-Thirdspace is set in the middle of Season 4 (the best episode break to view it during would be between "The Illusion of Truth" and "Atonement").
-River of Souls is set about 1 year after the second-to-last episode of Season 5.
-Legend of the Rangers, intended to be a pilot for a series that didn't materialize, is set about 2 years after ROS.
-A Call to Arms is set about 1 year after LOTR, followed by the spin-off series it sets up, Crusade.
-The Lost Tales Vol 1 is set about 5 years after the existing Crusade episodes (or, roughly, shortly after Crusade's theoretical 5th season, had the series been completed).


I'm halfway through Gathering and I can already tell why Sheridan was brought in to replace Sinclair. I've read before as well that Season One as a whole is inferior to the other ones but must be watched to have the later seasons make sense.


Right, the TV movies are probably more optional than the series episodes, with the possible exception of A Call to Arms. Even The Gathering is more back-story than anything, because the original plan of shooting the pilot and then going right into production on the series was dropped. By the time PTEN aired the pilot, looked at the ratings and gave the final approval to Warner Brothers, nearly 8 months had gone by, actors were either unavailable or roles had been reconsidered, and various plot and production elements tweaked to the point where the series was very different from the TV movie that had spawned it.

While the events of TG are assumed to have happened, you don't need to have seen the movie to launch into the series -- "Midnight on the Firing Line" does just as good a job introducing the characters and basic situation for S1. With the show taking awhile to build up to its big arc-elements in Season 1, several of the major revelations made during the movies aren't even touched upon until much later in the show, enabling most folks to forget what they heard and saw in -- say -- the prequel by the time they finally hit Season 4. (And one reason that JMS recommends In the Beginning as a better intro to the series than The Gathering.)

Also, if you're a newbie to the show, you should be careful when listening to the commentaries and the other DVD extras.

Leave them all until the end. JMS and most of the cast approach the extras the way they would for a movie -- and nobody expects anyone to listen to the commentary track before watching the feature. So they all tend to assume that everybody's seen the entire series already (probably several times).

The psychology of actors (and some studio personnel) in this respect is interesting. Most of these guys had been doing convention appearances for a modestly successful cult-SF show for five to ten years at the time they did the interviews and commentaries. Their natural assumption was that only die-hard fans would spend $60 to $100 per season to own these shows.

They never seem to have thought that the sets -- once owned -- would be lent out to friends, or that some people who were curious about the show but never got into it might take a chance on the discs. This is one reason the entire industry grossly underestimated the potential market for TV on DVD in the first place, and had to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing full-season releases by the fans. (B5 being a specific instance of that, as anyone who participated in the WB live chats back in the late '90s will remember.)


The2ndQuest posted:
Actually, from discussing things here with Sniper Wolf, I rewatched Season 1 a few days ago (just turned it on in the background at my store and let it run, so it it only took 2 o 3 days.. of course, naturall, the most people happened to walk in while Infecion was playing... wink ), I have to agree- even the bad episodes have good B or C plots, or at least, in the case of Infection, have a great little scene like Sinclair's answer to the space question. but because the A plots are what theya re, they're just not episodes that are going to win over new viewers to the series (especially ones that feature a few of the more generic forehead aliens that thankfully become far less prominent as the series progresses). It's also a shame that a lot of the Garabaldi/Sinclair freidnship plotpoints tend to fall amongst a lot fo these episodes (likely because they wanted to establish it early on, despite early episodes of shows tending to be the rougher ones).

Signs & Portents is still one of my favorite episodes- one of the first real TV space battles to use tactics (like setting up the gauntlet), a couple moments that make you go "what the hell did I just see, and when is the next episode on?" and a great tag with the vision of the future (not to mention combined with a great use of the B5 theme- we don't see it used much in that capacity after this point). It also has Molari's response to Morden's question, which is just fantastic stuff- "I want it all back- the WAY THAT IT WAS!"

Absolutely. Even in the so-called "non-arc" (or, in JMS's words, the "non-WHAM!") episodes, there are still extraordinary things happening. Season 1 in particular is rife with these moments, even when they're completely unlooked for. When B5 was greenlit, the show was the underdog in a world dominated by Star Trek, and Joe knew that they had nothing to lose by doing things radically differently from the tired, decades-old "Trek" way of thinking.

And so, even from the very beginning, Straczynski made some spectacularly ballsy creative choices during the writing of the series.

For example, the thing I loved about "Believers" is that it had an ending that most shows would never even have gone near. Of course the doctor would operate on the boy, and the parents would bow to the superior wisdom of Our Heroes™.

Not on B5. The kid dies, because that is the logical outcome of the doctor's actions. No technobabble solutions here.

This is not your father's SF show. (A fact made all the more obvious by the fact that David Gerrold, who wrote "Believers" based on a premise assigned by JMS, is a writer who made his very first professional sale to the original Star Trek, and the man who wrote the series bible for ST:TNG Season One.)

As for "Infection" -- like most "bad" B5 episodes, it isn't inherently awful, or especially badly-made. It is ordinary. It is routine. It is your father's SF show. It is the only script in the entire series where you could white-out the names, change a few details, and shoot it for any of the various Treks with no further alterations. On any other series this would be a pretty good, if conceptually trite, episode. But on B5, because the best episodes are so good, an "Infection" seems really bad.

Like I said a few posts ago in the thread, "Infection" is like the other universally-disliked episodes in another respect -- there is some gold in all that dross. The ending, where the EarthForce bioweapons division shows up to collect the Ikarran technology, is chilling, and again reminds us that we are not in the safe, sterile future of the later Treks. And there are several moments in the episode that touch on the series' greater arc, such as the Shadow War of 1,000 years ago and the Shadows' advanced biotechnology (also very subtly setting up the events of Crusade extremely early in the original series), although these are not always obvious the first time you see the show.

One of the remarkable things about B5 is the way in which the early episodes take on a completely different significance in view of later events. Watching S1 AFTER having seen the final episode of S5 is an utterly different experience than it is the first time through. That's why DVD is such a great medium for the series. It was made to be watched over and over, from the beginning and by design. Hell, there are headlines in "Universe Today" in the very first episode (you have to freeze-frame to really see them) that point to future events, and plots already in motion.

 

-----signature-----
"Pronouncing the first 'r' in 'February' is like making a homemade seaQuest DSV uniform -- it's a crime
against breeding, taste, intelligence, and humanity itself; and very few people appreciate the effort."
-- Lore Fitzgerald Sjoberg
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Sniper_Wolf 
Registered: Nov '02
46176_River Tam
Date Posted: 1/28 8:24am Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
So I finally finished season one last night. I agree with you guys that Sinclair did grow on me quite a bit through the season.

Highlights-

Anything involving G'Kar and Londo.
Bester.
Episodes with Morden.
"Bablyon Squared."

Lowlights-
"Infection."
G'Kar disappearing for some reason.

The Best- Lennier and Londo together. Very little needs to be said there. happy

 

-----signature-----
Winner of a Super Golden Ewok™ award.
I name you Sword of the Jedi. Always you shall be in the front rank, a burning brand to your enemies, a brilliant fire to your friends.
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
The2ndQuest 
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
 Registered: Jan '00
45729_Ithorian "Hammerhead"
Date Posted: 1/28 10:19am Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
::Lennier examines drink::

Lennier: "There's no alcohol in this, is there?"
Londo: "Alcohol? No of course not. Here, drink up."
Lennier: "Because my people do not react well to alcohol."
Londo: "Oh?"
Lennier: "Yes. Even a small quantity causes violent, homicidal rages."

::is about to sip it when Londo snatche sit from his hand::

Londo: "Ah! Ah...alcohol...my mistake. (to waitress) He'll have water, thank you."

 

-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Juliet316 
Registered: Apr '05
23585_Natalie Portman
Date Posted: 1/28 7:05pm Subject: RE: For Justice, For Peace, For the Future- We Have Come Home: Babylon 5
LOL! I could never quite figure out if Lennier was being dead serious when he said that or if he was making it up to test Londo.

 

-----signature-----
Juliet
RIP Eddie Guerrero rose
Tangible Dreams: http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/21029022/?10
The Heart of Betrayal: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/23822708/p1/?17
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
« 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 » - Previous | Next | Reload
Jedi Council Forums » Science Fiction and Fantasy » SFF: Films and Television »
© 2008 IGN Entertainment, Inc (6.08.17.2300, ASPNET7) 0.375