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Topic:
Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Juliet316
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
11/29/07 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
- Date Edited:
11/29/07 10:54pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Juliet316
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Emperor's Prize posted:
I definitely see your point about Encounter at Farpoint. Add to your comments the fact of including the Q storyline was definitely an inspired decision, and you certainly have an episode with a great deal of depth.
[quote=Juliet316]Now I'm curious. Why exclude Redemption because of Sela? Because I can't see excluding those eps and including Yesterday's Enterprise, because if you believe Sela, then what happens in Yesterday's Enterprise has a direct bearing on not only Redemption, but in a few other episodes of Seasons four and five.
{qoute=Emperor's Prize]The problem for me is that I don't buy into the whole Sela character. As I wrote in my review:
Yar died an unremarkable, senseless death in Skin of Evil. In Yesterday’s Enterprise, she was given the best possible of send-offs: a valiant sacrifice to save the lives of billions. But then we learn that she didn’t make that sacrifice, that she was forced to sacrifice much more than her life. Instead, she suffered an ignominious death, betrayed by her own daughter during an escape attempt. All of which serves to devalue the impact of Yesterday’s Enterprise. And it was thoroughly unnecessary for the Redemption episodes as well.
All of her scenes could have been portrayed by anyone — Tomalak, for example. And they serve to distract from the real heart of Redemption: Worf. Yes, the shock value of seeing Yar as a Romulan works — it did for me — when you first see it. But thinking about it, this was a pointless decision worthy of day-time soap opera and not TNG.
Worse yet, her character is simply annoying. Sela is a rather dunderheaded Romulan. Both of her schemes (Redemption & Unification) are overly grandiose and not well thought out. The Redemption scheme falls apart the moment they are discovered by the Federation. And the Unification theme is hopelessly ill-conceived. Invading and holding the entire planet of Vulcan with a mere 2,000 troops? Not to mention leaving Data, Spock and Picard alone in a room to conspire an escape? Not too bright.
No, Sela is a very poor character from her origins straight through to her actions.
IMO, of course.
 [/qoute]
And Q's another one of my favorite characters, and the storyline certainly comes full circle with All Good Things... *glares at movie people who never included Q in the TNG movies*
On Sela, fair enough. Like you said about my inclusion of the Redemption episodes, I can certainly see why as you've laid out you dislike the character of Sela. I on the other hand thought it was very - well concieved. Remember when the timeline got reset the TNG characters only remember her death in Skin of Evil and not her Yesterday's Enterprise sacrifice. It had to be unsettling to see somebody that looked almost exactly like somebody you cared about and not even be aware of how that might be possible, and fact is: She could be lying. We never saw Picard and Co. take a DNA sample from her or even request one from her to at least attempt to verify the story she told. She didn't even offer one to the Enterprise crew to attempt to confirm her story. We only have her story and Guinan's word, which Picard accepts as gospel 99% of the time. I think it would have been interesting if they had gotten a DNA sample and found out she was lying and just blow her ship out of orbit for the lie or find out she's telling the truth and then have to deal with just how the hell it could be possible. Just remember they do not remember the Enterprise C being in there timeline nor the universe that existed during that time.
But I can understand why that character might not be the best recieved character.
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Emperor's Prize
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 3:34am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Juliet316 posted:
Remember when the timeline got reset the TNG characters only remember her death in Skin of Evil and not her Yesterday's Enterprise sacrifice. It had to be unsettling to see somebody that looked almost exactly like somebody you cared about and not even be aware of how that might be possible, and fact is: She could be lying. We never saw Picard and Co. take a DNA sample from her or even request one from her to at least attempt to verify the story she told. She didn't even offer one to the Enterprise crew to attempt to confirm her story. We only have her story and Guinan's word, which Picard accepts as gospel 99% of the time. I think it would have been interesting if they had gotten a DNA sample and found out she was lying and just blow her ship out of orbit for the lie or find out she's telling the truth and then have to deal with just how the hell it could be possible. Just remember they do not remember the Enterprise C being in there timeline nor the universe that existed during that time.
But I can understand why that character might not be the best recieved character.
That's the best thing about TNG, I think. That so many of its episodes have great appeal to the fans. Almost every episode will have a strident fan. Even The Royale. And Redemption is far and away a better episode than The Royale.
As for Sela, I definitely remember the circumstances of all four episodes (Skin of Evil, Yesterday's Enterprise, Redemption I & II) rather well. And I actually agree, all things considered, that Redemption II did a pretty decent job of handling the Sela "albatross" as a I call it. The way Redemption I & II pulled together so many different story threads from the first four seasons was impressive.
But Sela's presence, outside of the initial shock for both the crew and the audience, had almost no impact on the course of the storyline. Even Picard says "As it now stands, I don't see how his has any impact on our present strategy. We'll continue the blockade and leave the next move to them." Basically Sela could have been any Romulan commander and the episodes would have unfolded almost the same way (outside of a couple of scenes that had no bearing on Worf or Data -- the two primary crew stories of Redemption I & II). I just found that the whole contrivance of Sela outweighs any possible benefit.
But like I said above, that's the great thing about TNG. Both points of view (yours and mine) are just as valid.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
11/30/07 6:27am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
- Date Edited:
11/30/07 6:29am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedimarine
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Emperor's Prize posted:
That's the best thing about TNG, I think. That so many of its episodes have great appeal to the fans. Almost every episode will have a strident fan. Even The Royale. And Redemption is far and away a better episode than The Royale.
I don't know if there are many big supporters of Shades of Grey...a recap episode? honestly?
Other episodes I'd suspect are defenseless:
Angel One: Starts out as an interesting premise to Matriarchal society...but by the end devolves into something between a trashy romance novel and a sissified, upended version of Haven just a couple episodes before.
The Dauphin: Awful this time...and awful when they retread the story in DS9 when Jake and Nog fight over the little girl leader.
The Survivors: Geriatric Romance.
Journey's End: The royal kiss off to Wesley Crusher.
___________________
Oh and I completely and totally screwed up my favorite list.
I don't know how, but I forgot my favorite episode of all time until I was sifting through the trash.
"Booby Trap"
I feel like a fool for forgetting it!
So knock the rest down a peg...sorry Rightful Heir...
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Juliet316
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
12/1/07 7:52pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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I actually liked Journey's End as a way of closing Wesley's arc by harkening back to the Traveller (told you I was a sucker for Traveller eps). I do wish though that Traveller had been in more than just 2 previous eps to further set Wes up for his 'final journey.' (another reason I hate Nemesis, but whatever.)
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Earthknight
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
12/2/07 1:02am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
- Date Edited:
12/2/07 1:12am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Earthknight
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My top 10 TNG list:
1. The Best of Both Worlds
2. Q Who?
3. Datalore( I love Lore and Data)
4. Yesterday's Enterprise
5. Skin of Evil
6. the Measure of a Man
7. Genesis
8. Tapestry
9. All Good Things
10. Clues
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CrazyOldHermit
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
12/7/07 8:33pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Hermit's top ten TNG list:
1. Best of Both World's 1 and 2
2. Parallels
3. The Measure of a Man
4. Family
5. Sins of the Father
6. The Neutral Zone
7. All Good Things...
8. Tapestry
9. Redemption 1 and 2
10. Q Who?
Other Good Ones
The Wounded
Sarek
The Defector
Chain of Command 1 and 2
Pegasus
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General Kenobi
Title: Comms Admin
SW & Film Music
Classic Trilogy
Registered:
Dec '98
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Date Posted:
12/28/07 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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I just finished watching all seven seasons again, in order. I'm not quite sure when I started - around three years ago - but over the last few months I've made a run through seasons six and seven. There were a few more good episodes in those last two seasons that I remembered, but still too many "filler" episodes where the characters and plots were a bit too cliché.
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SionsBrother
Registered:
Nov '06
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Date Posted:
1/9 6:50pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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I guess I'll do my list.
1. Parallels
2. Time's Arrow parts 1 and 2
3. Best of Both Worlds parts 1 and 2
4. Relics
5. I, Borg
6. Tapestry
7. Cause and Effect
8. Who Watches the Watchers
9. All Good Things...
10. Descent Parts 1 and 2
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/15 8:48am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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I've watched most of the first season again, but I don't think I will continue. For some reason I remember this show being a lot better when I was 13 and would watch it every day after school. Back then I liked Wesley, but I can hardly watch a scene now without wanting to punch him in the face. The episodes with Q were some of the best, and I would also agree the Traveler could have been played out a bit more.
But I think the main thing is that when you compare more recent shows' character development, you just don't care nearly as much about them. Part of that comes with being able to watch episodes back to back and in order, you see just how much filler there is and how not many things are tied together.
It did lead me to start watching Enterprise for the first time. That show isn't nearly as good as others, but with the writer's strike and all the extra time I have on my hands right now, it isn't that bad. I'm through the first season, and have caught several random episodes on TV as well. The thing I keep thinking about is how much better BSG is.
Part of it is that Star Trek was a reflection of the times they lived in. That type of idealism, especially in TNG, just doesn't resonate anymore. Science fiction is at its best when it holds up a mirror to our society and explores where we are headed. The main thing I think that largely killed ST is just the simple fact that nobody really believes in the global utopia and removal of all destructive human tendencies in a few hundred years. We see that things have a much greater chance of going wrong than going right.
It will be interesting to see the direction the ST movie takes.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
1/15 11:30am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Espaldapalabras posted:
The main thing I think that largely killed ST is just the simple fact that nobody really believes in the global utopia and removal of all destructive human tendencies in a few hundred years. We see that things have a much greater chance of going wrong than going right.
That's one notion B5 took to heart when it was competing against ST back in the day.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/15 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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The2ndQuest posted:
Espaldapalabras posted:
The main thing I think that largely killed ST is just the simple fact that nobody really believes in the global utopia and removal of all destructive human tendencies in a few hundred years. We see that things have a much greater chance of going wrong than going right.
That's one notion B5 took to heart when it was competing against ST back in the day.
It was also the notion that technology was the answer to humanity's issues...but in the 40+ years since Gene concocted his Utopian technoverse, we've seen rampant technological innovation not even imagined then...and all those issues still exist or have gotten worse...and moreover, we are faced with the consequences of that innovations negatives on a global scale.
Plus the ultimate fallacy of Star Trek...if you are smart enough, you must be benevolent in your superiority. I adore how the concept of the Prime Directive took broadsides for decades in the Trek universe...it's a running joke now.
I suspect JJ's new movie will be more "balls to the wall" then socialist utopia of brainiac earthlings.
That is TNGs biggest stain...it took those ideological dreams of Gene's and put them on screen in all their pastel wussiness.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/16 3:15am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Oh the Prime Directive is the most absurd thing I have ever heard of. Even this newer Enterprise who didn't even have it written down managed to show just how screwed up that "ideology" was. They are confronted with a planet with a space faring species that seeks out help to a genetic disease, and they don't help them because they haven't reaching some arbitrary technological achievement and there is a chance for some other creature to eventually take over once all these people die? Their excuse is that it would be going against the "law" of evolution, but you don't see them knocking off Jordie because he is a cripple. They didn't see anything wrong with using technology to solve their own problems, but when it comes to the problems of "lesser" creatures who ask them for help they are all of the sudden concerned with messing with "nature."
I mean, even if you are going to imagine a bunch of wussy paragons always doing the right thing, this is just a totally morally bankrupt position. Not to mention from a pratical standpoint to prevent human expansion to any of these planets, and you prevent teaching them anything that might help them.
It is like they know how stupid a policy it is, and they are still looking for reasons to justify it. Basically it is the same tendency that would say we shouldn't do anything in Africa because if we just never went in there they would be so much better off being nomadic tribes.
I sure hope JJ Abrams just sticks to killing the evil Klingons and possibly Romulans.
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/16 8:03am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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I don't think the Prime Directive is a screwed up ideology at all. To provide a paralel example, don't forget about what Nareem told SG-1 about the Sureeta when they were given access to Tollan technology. They completely destroyed, not only their own planet, but Tollan as well, in A SINGLE DAY, simply because Tollan technology was beyond their understanding. As a result of their experience with the Sureeta, the Tollan don't share their technology with ANYONE.
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Jedimarine
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/16 9:54am
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
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Chancellor_Ewok posted:
I don't think the Prime Directive is a screwed up ideology at all. To provide a paralel example, don't forget about what Nareem told SG-1 about the Sureeta when they were given access to Tollan technology. They completely destroyed, not only their own planet, but Tollan as well, in A SINGLE DAY, simply because Tollan technology was beyond their understanding. As a result of their experience with the Sureeta, the Tollan don't share their technology with ANYONE.
That's like someone who's heart is broken by their first love and swear they'll never love again.
Circumstances are involved in EVERY encounter...and to specify a hard rule without analyzing all the information available and judging on the merits is a cruel and cold excuse disguised as scientific reason.
It indicates quite arrogantly that others are doomed to natures fate, while "we" are no longer subject to it.
Sorry...as nature proves time and again...just when you think she doesn't own you...SHE OWNS YOU...and if the course of nature leads you to those and need...who are we to subject judgment on their development?
And we won't even get into how Earth wouldn't have been where it was without the Vulcan's holding it's hand in the early years...
We got to warp...Yippy! So one drunken yahoo in the back of beyond is the key to indicating a species is "ready"?
I love the beginning of the "in the mirror darkly" 2 parter, when they revisit the first contact...THAT is so how humans in a bleak environment would behave.
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/16 12:21pm
Subject:
RE: Engage! The Star Trek: TNG General Discussion
- Date Edited:
1/16 12:52pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Chancellor_Ewok
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Jedimarine posted:
Chancellor_Ewok posted:
I don't think the Prime Directive is a screwed up ideology at all. To provide a paralel example, don't forget about what Nareem told SG-1 about the Sureeta when they were given access to Tollan technology. They completely destroyed, not only their own planet, but Tollan as well, in A SINGLE DAY, simply because Tollan technology was beyond their understanding. As a result of their experience with the Sureeta, the Tollan don't share their technology with ANYONE.
That's like someone who's heart is broken by their first love and swear they'll never love again.
You're missing my point, which is that if you simply hand a less advnaced civilization a piece of extremely advance technology before they are ready for it, they won't understand the power of what they've been given and more likely than not, they'll abuse it, maybe even without realizing it. World War I is a good example. The reason the war was a bad as it was has to do with the fact that, neither side understood the power of the weapons they were using. Rifles that could only shoot as quickly as they could be reloaded had been replaced with machine guns that fired hundreds of rounds per minute. Imagine what would happen if you went back in time to the American Civil War and gave both sides modern rifles and all the ammo they needed to fight for five years, but didn't tell them that modern firearms have ten time the range of a Civil War musket. The result would be a blood bath with signifigantly higher numbers of friendly-fire causualties, simply because they don't understand the power of the highly advanced technology that they've been given.
Jedimarine posted:
Circumstances are involved in EVERY encounter...and to specify a hard rule without analyzing all the information available and judging on the merits is a cruel and cold excuse disguised as scientific reason
That's the idea though. You don't know what somebody is going to with the technology that you give them. How would you feel if you gave a lesser civilization phaser technology and the result was a holocaust? Its better to ere on the side of caution and not share your technology until you are sure that it will be used responsibly.
Jedimarine posted:
It indicates quite arrogantly that others are doomed to natures fate, while "we" are no longer subject to it.
Sorry...as nature proves time and again...just when you think she doesn't own you...SHE OWNS YOU...and if the course of nature leads you to those and need...who are we to subject judgment on their development?
I don't think that the Prime Directive dooms a culture at all. It's simply a recognition that every civilization develops at its own speed and that trying to speed up that development can be dangerous.
Jedimarine posted:
And we won't even get into how Earth wouldn't have been where it was without the Vulcan's holding it's hand in the early years...
We got to warp...Yippy! So one drunken yahoo in the back of beyond is the key to indicating a species is "ready"?
I love the beginning of the "in the mirror darkly" 2 parter, when they revisit the first contact...THAT is so how humans in a bleak environment would behave.
Yes, In a Mirror Darkly is probably a more accurate representation of how humans in a post-apocolyptic enviroment would react to a Vulcan survey party, but Carbon Creek makes it pretty clear that the Vulcans have been studying us, at least, since the 1950s, if not earlier. By 2063 they knew us better than we know ourselves. There was probably alot more to their decision to make contact than just Zephram Cochrane's warp flight and don't forget that during the early days of Earth's relationhip with Vulcan, the Vulcans always held back to make us figure it out on our own.
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