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Author	Topic: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 3/19 8:32pm Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 3/19 8:39pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	Was kidding about Biehn in general, but apparently, he ALMOST snagged the role that Stephen Lang ended up with in James Cameron's Avatar. I guess Lang had a better take on it, though. Still, it's good to know that Cameron still wants to work with Biehn, especially now that Jim seems to plan on staying back in the filmmaking business. (Maybe Michael can snag a role in Cameron's Battle Angel?) That, and he should make damn sure he ends up as a part of the regular stable of Rodriguez/Tarantino actors for their films, and the ones that they produce. If it ever gets made, he's make an excellent addition to Tarantino's Inglorious Bastards. -----signature----- Tighter Than a 10-Year-Old.
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Cryogenic Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 4/7 1:23pm Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 4/7 2:02pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Cryogenic
	I was watching T2 the other day and it still holds up. I don't just mean technically, either -- though it's still visually brilliant. The Cameron flicks are great. I don't think they're necessarily the most artful films of all time, but they have an intricacy and cleverness, even a scope, that's extremely arresting. A lot of people seem to prefer the sequel, and I can see why. However, I'm the guy that says the first is superior. In T2, Cameron dicks around with his creation (e.g. "Bad to the Bone"), though it's still immensely involving. But there is an unremitting bleakness to the first. Every moment seems as desperate as the last. Can a toned but scrawny human like Kyle really protect Sarah, and, in a way, humanity, from this seemingly unstoppable hulk of a machine? With Arnie on the good guys' side in the second one, it seems like more of a foregone conclusion. But again, there is a strong case for the sequel. Aside from the second film's slickness, I think it has one massively substantial thing in its favour over its predecessor: the relationship between John and the Terminator. This is something that's done so well you almost take it for granted. It's only really at the very end that it hits you -- and the ending becomes even more powerful as a result. Last time I watched, I found The Terminator's sacrifice, or the way it was done, truly operatic. I can see how Cameron built his skills up there to then go and make "Titanic" another technical and emotional powerhouse, on an even greater level (controversial backlash aside). By comparison, T3 is a joke -- at least in this guy's subjective opinion. For me, only two things really work: 1) Doctor Silberman's cameo. 2) The ending. And even the second thing is a distortion (if not an outright contradiction) of Cameron's final message at the close of T2. Maybe this wouldn't be such a problem if there was more intelligence behind the film in the first place; the polemical ending seems too sophisticated and too undeserved. I mean, I truly object to just about everything in T3, from the story, to the characterisations, the acting, the dialogue, the music, the photography ... everything. For me, T3 lacks all of the dark humour and ballsy conflicts of the Cameron films, and this soft-soaped approach affects every facet of the movie. On a superficial "masculine" level: There's not a single fight as cool as the T-1000 and Arnie's Terminator (T-800 or whatever) duking it out in the steel plant. Nor is there anything as visually cool, or musically weird, as the T-1000 jumping onto the helicopter and pouring through the glass. Nor does Arnie use a weapon as cool as the grenade launcher or minigun. On a slightly less "masculine" level, the sound design just isn't there, either. On a story and visceral level, the Terminatrix (ugh!) is a major step back from the T-1000, even if she can remotely control vehicles. Arnie's Terminator also remembers John, which destroys the beauty of their unique relationship in T2 and that Terminator's sacrifice, if watching T3 as a proper sequel. The humour is way too broad. Kristanna Loken is pathetic next to Robert Patrick. The music has no menace. The setpieces are badly edited and lack tension, bite, atmosphere. John Connor and his girlfriend have no presence. Bla bla bla. On the other hand, I do like the ridiculous "Zucker Bros" humour in places. Maybe I'm just a sucker for visual humour, but when Arnie goes into that gas station and starts aggressively swiping things off the shelves and smacking them into his shopping basket, I am laughing my ass off. You could put that scene on loop and I'd be happy. Of course, the punchline of the entire scene is, "Talk to the hand!" .... but the funniest part for me is the last part of Arnie swiping stuff, where he walks up to the counter and slams entire candy displays into his basket -- what's great is they even included foley work for some of the sweets falling out and rolling on the floor. LMAO! It's more like something you might see in "Jackass" or a movie like "Be Kind: Rewind", but maybe that's why I like it. Very simple, yet crudely effective. If the whole movie had been more like that, I think it would have worked better. I'm not talking merely in terms of humourour setpieces; I'm talking about aesthetics. Instead, many of the actual jokes are even cheaper ... e.g. "I like your gun" is INSANELY AWFUL (IMO) next to the understated, "Say, that's a nice bike . . . " (again, Cameron's superior black humour). The whole film feels cynically calculated and like one long ream of endless placation. Take the shot of an old John Connor leading the resistance. "Yeah! Yeah!" he screams, while an AMERICAN FLAG waves clearly behind him. Now compare this to the way Cameron shows the war at the start of T2. No jingoistic tripe. No Alpha Male posturing. No group gestures. Just an extremely focused John Connor, watching the battlefield with intense scrutiny, looking a lot like a Terminator himself. It shades the film so much better and treats the audience with so much more respect. But the real kicker is this: the emotional resonance of T3 is almost completely lacking, in my opinion. I think this is merely symptomatic of the way beauty is considered or not considered, however. "Just die, YOU BITCH!" might be the single worst line and delivery I've EVER heard. Seriously, it's utterly detestable to me. And I think it's very revealing of the minds behind T3. Complain about George Lucas all you want, but he has never written something so absurdly ugly. Or what about Catherine and John entering the military compound and that ridiculous moment between father and daughter? Again, insanely bad stuff (IMO). The deaths of Kyle and the Terminator in T1 and T2 had REAL depth, but the mourning process in T3 is hideously bad (IMO). Nothing feels real. Oddly, there are moments where I the film almost flashes to life, like when Arnie grabs John and berates him: "I'm wasting my time." Of course, he's far too human this time around, though this moment still has gravitas. Or when he flips out and almost kills John. Arnie's acting is very fine here, but again, it doesn't really fit (unless we imagine this Terminator as a reincarnation and continually-empathetic extension of the one that killed himself in T2). The scene between John and the Terminator in T2 - "I order you not to go! I order you not to go! I ORDER YOU NOT TO GO!" -- just kills me. It's utterly fantastic. And the response is even more touching: "I know now why you cry, but it's something I can never do. Goodbye." The pause between John saying his line and the Terminator wiping his tear and responding is AWESOME. In that pause, it's like Arnie's Terminator has realised he needs to respond in a way that respects John's pain. The line itself is almost irrelevant; it's the recognition in the Terminator of another's sorrow that makes him as precisely human as you or I. Seriously, that moment really gets to me; I think it's profoundly beautiful. Maybe I'm overly biased, but I'm not interested in anything T3 has to offer after that, for there's nothing that could remotely compare. But I could be even cheaper here: "No T-1000! No T-1000!" See. That's ALL I really needed to say. Just everything Cameron did was so much cooler and so better integrated to me. Maybe the original is too sparse, but I like that. However, I also like the more assured and balletic feel of T2. I keep returning to T2 becuase it's more "Hollywood" -- an "intelligent blockbuster", if that isn't a contradiction in terms. Y'know: the sort of thing T3 I really think T3 isn't. Arnie reloading the shotgun with one hand on a Harley? AWESOME. The T-1000 surviving the explosion and walking out of the fire? AWESOME. And that's just in one five minute chunk of a two hour (plus) film. I'm speaking superficially again, but T3 has nothing of remotely equal stature in even this area. I just don't think many people get films. We take 'em for granted. We don't always know why they work for us as they do, but you can probe and things are revealed. I noticed when I last watched T2 that the first fight between Arnie and the T-1000 in the steel works is very quick. They throw each other around, like their very first encounter in the mall, but nothing is excessive. I also really admired the photography -- the steam, the hues, the flashing lights. It has an inevitable feel, as if both characters are nearing the end. It's a subconscious visual achievement, until you dissect and consciously see why it works as it does; you can never fully explain, but you begin to appreciate details that you just treated inconsequentially before. Another thing about this fight is the unassuming simplicity of the way the Terminators take each other on. In T3, they have to go the tacky route of having the T-X fight Arnie in a toilet and grab Arnie by the testicles. Wow, fantastic gender satire there! In T2, however ... there are no comparable ploys; the T-1000 and Arnie don't fight in a gym and attempt to wrestle or anything. Instead, the T-1000 quickly and shrewdly ends the fight by simply pushing Arnie, causing him to become ensnared and lose an arm in a piece of machinery. A brilliant touch -- the most devastating blow is the simplest of moves. "Be Like Water!" (or Liquid Metal). See, Cameron might be a showman, and he might even offend my sensibilities (e.g. "True Lies"), but he isn't just sound and fury. There is thought and intelligence between the strokes. I won't even touch "The Sarah Connor Chronicles". (I saw the pilot. That was more than enough.) So yeah ... that's an exceptionally long winded way of saying I love T1 and T2 and that the story and characters start and end there for me. I've edited and edited this post to try and get it right, but it's still a mess. I can't quite say what I mean, but maybe I've done the best I can. To me, even James Cameron seems to wrap the story up at the close of T2. "There's a storm coming" was more poetic, but the final line by Sarah in T2 seems to be the perfect conclusion. To grossly simplify, you only need to look at it this way: in the original, Arnie was the bad guy; in the sequel, he's the good guy. He can only ever be either again. There's nothing else left, but to simply retread old ground and dilute and dilute and dilute until all the texture and taste has completely gone. For some people, this might be perfectly fine; in such minds, there is no dilution, only continuation. That seems to be the general mentality in this particular forum, but I suppose it goes with the territory. I guess I care less about getting a fix and more about purity of expression. That's not an attack on anyone here; I just see things a little differently. At some point, and often very rapidly, I think you're definitely getting water, not wine. Others may disagree, but as far as "The Terminator" series goes, I've found that the wine starts and ends with James Cameron. -----signature----- I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films. - Ian McDiarmid
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The2ndQuest Title: : -Games -LACWAC -Lit Mod of Death Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 4/7 4:39pm Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 4/7 4:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: The2ndQuest
	I disagree on a few points (ie: I don't see much of a problem like "Just die, you bitch!", doesn't seem any different than the (albeit more iconic) "Get away from her, you bitch!" in Aliens; and it's certainly not as grimance-inducing as some of the love plot dialogue of AOTC or ROTS), though I won't dispute T1 & T2's immense superiority over T3. T2 in particular is inspiring and I'm forever grateful I managed to first watch it as young as I was when I did (9, for those curious). Also, I wouldn't dismiss Sarah Connor Chronicles so easily- the pilot isn't that great (being a "lite" retread of T2), but the series gets better with every episode. It never reaches T1 or T2 levels of greatness, but it feels more like an authetic sequel/followup to T2 than T3 did, and is definitely more entertaining and emotionally-honest than T3 as well. -----signature----- K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker? Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..." Is your Death Magnetic?
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Yodas-evil-twin Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 5/5 6:17am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	Sounds like T4 is going to be rated...PG-13. -----signature----- "Who watches the Watchmen?" "The JCC is pretty much Lord of the Flies without the healthy outdoorsy atmosphere." -soitscometothis
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/5 9:34am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 5/5 9:56am (6 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	McG is probably being told to deliver a "PG-13" cut; I don't think it's his idea. Not that I'm defending him or anything, but I don't think he deserves too much heat on this one. Let that come with the finished product. I never expected this to be anything but a "PG-13." It's pretty much in a different genre than the previous entries in the franchise. The first one was, for all intents and purposes, a horror movie (and the only one really worth an "R" rating). The next two were action movies, and I still don't see what gave T3 an "R"-rating. Even T2 is pretty tame, if you think about it. This one's a skiFfy war movie. And the bad guys aren't even flesh and blood. To boot, the TV series frequently managed to deliver up intense stuff rivalling the "R"-rated Jim Cameron flicks (the blood-filled bathtub scene comes immediately to mind), so at the very minimum, we'll be getting that on the big screen for T4, with a budget several times that of the series. Yesterday's "R" is today's "PG-13." Shoehorning in a Die Hard complaint: I got about 20 minutes into Live Free or Die Hard before ALMOST walking out of the theater, and this had nothing to do with its "PG-13" rating. I can't decide which killed it for me -- was the terribly lame hacker stuff, or was it the tragic "Bruce is such a crazy, overbearing father!" boyfriend-scene that looked like it was lifted from a Verizon commercial? Though it's a bummer when established "R"-franchises get watered down just to make some extra coin with the 'tweener brats who are probably spending their money on Epic Movie 2 or Step Up 2 The Str33tz: 4 Tha Luv of Tha Hood. -----signature----- Tighter Than a 10-Year-Old.
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Sith_Lord_Linkoping Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 5/6 8:49am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	I have a bad feeling about this film. Variety posted: Common thread in Terminator film Posted: Mon., May 5, 2008 Rapper Common has signed on to co-star in "Terminator Salvation: The Future Begins" for Halcyon Pictures. Christian Bale and Sam Worthington have already boarded the project, which will be distributed by Warner Bros. domestically. Sony will release the film in most foreign territories. Story centers on John Connor (Bale), now in his 30s, who leads what is left of the human race in a battle against the machines. Common will play a freedom fighter and member of Connor's inner circle. McG will direct from a script by John D. Brancato & Michael Ferris and Paul Haggis. Dan Lin, Mortiz Borman, Victor Kubicek, Jeff Silver, Derek Anderson and Jeanne Allgood are producing the film, which will bow May 22, 2009. Common can next be seen onscreen in "Wanted," starring Angelina Jolie, Morgan Freeman and James McAvoy. Later this summer, he is set to release his eighth album, "Invincible Summer." -----signature----- Bianca 1990-2006 - Lost but not forgotten. ~ "Birth signals the arrival of death." - Tekkonkinkreet
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/6 9:48am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 5/6 9:51am (2 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	Dammit, for a second there, I almost thought this was going to be about some wet-dream fanboy casting: William Shatner in Transformers 2! Common's actually in the process of recording a new album right now ("The Believer"), which is set with a tentative release date at the end of the year. Which is good news. Paul Haggis rewrote Brancato and Ferris on this film? Very interesting. Hadn't heard about that. -----signature----- Tighter Than a 10-Year-Old.
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Yodas-evil-twin Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 5/6 10:17am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	McG and a PG 13 rating are to movie geeks as holy water is to demons. -----signature----- "Who watches the Watchmen?" "The JCC is pretty much Lord of the Flies without the healthy outdoorsy atmosphere." -soitscometothis
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Sith_Lord_Linkoping Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 5/21 5:11am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 5/21 5:24am (2 edits total) Edited By: Sith_Lord_Linkoping
	ComingSoon posted: Bale Signed for All Three Terminator Films Source: BBC News on May 20, 2008 Christian Bale is to play rebel leader John Connor in three sequels to the "Terminator" franchise, starting with Terminator Salvation: The Future Begins, according to BBC News: The Welsh-born star, who is soon to be seen in Batman Begins sequel The Dark Knight, has already started shooting the first of those films, Terminator Salvation: The Future Begins. "He's really an actor's actor, so we're very proud," said Victor Kubicek of film company Halcyon. "Christian was our first choice and he's a big fan of The Terminator, so we're very lucky," Kubicek told the BBC at the Cannes Film Festival. "But with Batman he's already done the whole franchise thing, so we weren't sure he'd respond." Luckily, said Kubicek's business partner Derek Anderson, "he read the script and he loved it, so he's signed on for all three." The first new installment, co-starring Sam Worthington, Anton Yelchin and Moon Bloodgood, centers on John Connor, now in his 30s, who leads what is left of the human race in a battle against the machines. Directed by McG, Warner Bros. will release the film on May 22, 2009. -----signature----- Bianca 1990-2006 - Lost but not forgotten. ~ "Birth signals the arrival of death." - Tekkonkinkreet
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ApolloSmileGirl Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 5/21 5:36am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	Leto II posted: Common's actually in the process of recording a new album right now ("The Believer"), which is set with a tentative release date at the end of the year. Which is good news. Really? He just put one out less than a year ago. The man likes to stay busy. -----signature----- Queen " Baadasssss Pixie" of the Knights of the Sarcasm Table At first when I see you cry....Yeah, it makes me smile Yeah, it makes me smile At worst I feel bad for a while, But then I just smile I go ahead and smile...... VIN
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 5/23 10:53am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 5/23 10:54am (1 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
	New Terminator 4: The Return of the Terminator plot-info released at AICN. Kate Brewster's back. Played by Charlotte Gainsbourg, of all things. Most of the casting for this movie is oddball. Although, "Terminator: The Guy From Avatar (Which Hasn't Come Out Yet) and Batman Fight Killer Robots" gets my title-vote. Or maybe "Terminator Tech-Noir: The '80s Clubbing Begins." "Terminator: The Return Of The Terminator: Termination: Full Throttle." Saying "Terminator" so many times makes it lose its meaning. Terminator. -----signature----- Tighter Than a 10-Year-Old.
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Sith_Lord_Linkoping Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 5/24 5:20am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	CinemaSpy - Terminator Salvation Concept Art Arrives! Concept Art Official Website -----signature----- Bianca 1990-2006 - Lost but not forgotten. ~ "Birth signals the arrival of death." - Tekkonkinkreet
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Sith_Lord_Linkoping Registered: Jan '01	Date Posted: 5/27 4:18am Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread - Date Edited: 5/27 4:20am (2 edits total) Edited By: Sith_Lord_Linkoping
	Spoiler TV posted: Terminator Salvation Casting Update Chris Ashworth who is best known for his roles in The Wire and Without a Trace has been cast in Terminator Salvation: The Future Begins. You may have seen Chris Ashworth on the HBO series the Wire or on the CBS TV show Without a Trace. Now the Bedford native has landed a role on the big screen in the movie Terminator 4. He plays a character named Richter. He says he was very excited to have such a huge credit on his resume. Terminator 4 is budgeted at just under 200 million dollars and is due out next summer. -----signature----- Bianca 1990-2006 - Lost but not forgotten. ~ "Birth signals the arrival of death." - Tekkonkinkreet
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Leto II Registered: Jan '00	Date Posted: 6/2 12:16pm Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	Charlotte Gainsbourg out as Kate Brewster...Bryce Dallas Howard in. Interesting. Apparently, the T4 shooting-window conflicted with some arty, frou-frou French film Gainsbourg was scheduled to do. -----signature----- Tighter Than a 10-Year-Old.
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Dark_Jedi_Kenobi Title: PT Manager Registered: Oct '04	Date Posted: 6/2 12:51pm Subject: RE: Come with me if you want to live: The Terminator Thread
	That's fine with me, I like BDH better anyway. -----signature----- *Host of the PT Trivia Challenge Game 12: Question 10 Posted!* http://boards.theforce.net/prequel_trilogy/b10669/23314477/p4/?184
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