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Author	Topic: A message from the CR
Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/21 10:33pm Subject: A message from the CR
	I do not post every month, even when SAFF was at it's peak. So i actually find this rule discriminatory and will be raising this particular point with an Internet and Information Technology Lawyer friend of mine. be aware as a ex Forum Moderator myself that by basing membership standards on 'Post count' you are opening a door that some other forums have already been legally held accountable for discrimination. There are at least 5 current members of the SAFF i can think of that do not fall in to that category and would loose there 'membership' By the way, the forums that were found guilty were 'blacklisted' by the ACCC and were the local organisers were fined on a daily basis for every day the website was available in Australia. I understand what you are trying to do, make people post instead of lurking but you are going down a legal minefield. It's why many organizations say you have to attend 1 or more events in a year (outside of the forums) I will call my friend now and see what he says -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/21 11:04pm Subject: A message from the CR - Date Edited: 7/21 11:13pm (5 edits total) Edited By: Quinten_JarVos
	Confirmed. I've just spoken to my lawyer friends at Cowell Clarke Commercial Lawyers (IT Lawyers) Due to the Fan Force's Rules of being a member, the Membership Rights for the saff are based upon, you must be a resident of South Australia. As for Voting rights, the above must be factored in and when compared with the information from the Equal Opportunity Act of South Australia 1985 means that..... The Proposed change of one post per month to retain membership voting rights is discriminatory and will open the SAFF and the theforce.net boards up to a breach in Equal Opportunity Act of 1985. Basically, any legal challenge could see a cease and desist order enforced on the theforce.net boards, asking them to stop hosting to australia. And those CR's and Moderators in Australia will be held legally responsible for the breach in the act. Kinda Ouch really! Edit: Left out a word or two due to the nature of typing and talking on the phone at the same time -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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Darth_Meanders Title: Former CR South Australia Registered: May '04	Date Posted: 7/21 11:05pm Subject: A message from the CR
	I'd be interested to hear what they have to say. Just be clear though that there's a distinction being made between membership and voting eligibility. Membership is pretty well unrestricted. -----signature----- Meanders Inn - Generously Juicing Jawas since 2005 TI 3482 - Terror Australis Garrison "Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by themselves" - TCW Ep03
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Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/21 11:14pm Subject: A message from the CR
	See above Meanders, i clarified it with him -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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oz_skipp Title: Second In Charge - SAFF Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 7/22 12:24am Subject: A message from the CR - Date Edited: 7/22 12:29am (1 edits total) Edited By: oz_skipp
	Quinten_JarVos posted: I understand what you are trying to do, make people post instead of lurking but you are going down a legal minefield. No, this is not being put in place to make people post. It's about rewarding the involvement of people who want to be involved as well as fair and just representation for those that are involved in SAFF both online and in person. Analogy #1: if I have a group of 20 friends who reside in SA yet have nothing to do with SAFF yet sign up to specifically come onto the boards to vote me in at election time, is that fair and just? Analogy #2: if I am a non-financial member of a club that 'requires' a $5 a year membership fee, would it be fair and just for paid up members if I insisted that my vote count...that it is 'discriminatory' against me because I don't have the $5 to spare yet want my vote to count? Given that SAFF is not an 'official' club with a defined and legally binding charter, and especially that it exists for people of common interest and friendship, the talk of issues based on discrimination confuses me. Anyone who wants to be involved can be. Anyone who wants to post can post (unless banned for breaching rules/code of conduct etc). Those '5' members can come and post at any time. I do however think the wording of Membership is possibly a little misleading/confusing. Perhaps some clarification or distinction of 'Voting Eligibility' compared with Membership is possibly required. Voting Eligibility cf. Membership is a slightly different thing, perhaps it needs Toddi and I to look at it again (which is why it was put to the forum, it's not carved in stone and set in concrete yet). AFAIK, voting eligibility for a Fan Force group is 100% able to be determined by the members via the CR. In fact, it is the mods that asked Toddi and I to look into this as a matter of relative urgency due to it not being set in stone in the past. As far as I'm concerned, the once a month per year thing could be considered an average anyway. I was 'away' (interstate / overseas / out of internet range) for about 15% of last year and hence couldn't always post...and then there's the time when work ruled me 25 hours a day so I pretty much wasn't around...yet I've managed more than 12 posts. Oh, and I'm not being picky here, I'd bet a decent amount that your post count is greater than 12 for the last year QJV, so that means you'd be eligible Hope this clarifies things, from my perspective as to the vibe of the thing anyway. I'm not at all trying to sound harsh or jumping on this in an aggressive manner, but just trying to be clear and to the point. A few 'things' have come to my attention in the last week or so that have astounded, annoyed and saddened me in equal parts. Whilst I'm sure you're looking at this in a positive way in order to avoid potential problems, and the advice is welcome, the last thing anyone needs to do is bring in the full force of law type stuff (I have some unfounded and somewhat nasty accusations thrown against me for whatever reason that I've let slide yet could've pursued if I felt so inclined). I believe that, sadly, there'd be plenty more dust stirred due to the walking away if that were to happen. Let's keep going forward to avoid that. I, personally, don't feel like losing more friends just because the only 'bad' thing I've done is that I'm on SAFF. -----signature----- The official website of ROOT! the band - http://www.roottheband.com.au/ Support me during Movember 2009: http://au.movember.com/mospace/21391 Llamasoft make great games. Never heard of them? Go to http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/
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Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/22 4:47am Subject: A message from the CR
	Oz it doesn't matter how we 'clarify' the situation, the section relating to Membership, which is defined in the force.net boards means that if you are a 'member' of the SAFF then you are a member of the SAFF. Restrictions placed upon who is eligible for voting, once you're considered a member of the SAFF is against the Equal Opportunity Act. It's black and white. Let me dig it up It is unlawful for an association to discriminate— (Which the SA legal system sees the saff as) (a) against an applicant for membership on the ground of impairment— (Internet access is related to that) (i) by refusing or failing to admit the applicant to membership, or to a particular class of membership, of the association; or (ii) in the terms on which the applicant is, or may be, admitted to membership, or to a particular class of membership; or (This is where the voting comes in, it is stating that you cannot pick and choose who gets what. It's either Every member gets it, or none. Simple as that) (b) against a member of the association on the ground of impairment— (If you do not have internet access or the ability to post) (i) by refusing or failing to provide a particular service or benefit to that member; or (This covers the rights of the member, they have the right to vote as a member) (ii) in the terms on which a particular service or benefit is provided to that member; or (iii) by expelling that member from the association or subjecting him or her to any other detriment. (You cannot expel a member from voting rights, nor act against the member in a detrimental way due to there inability to post or attend) The last one is particularly relevant, the actions that are proposed, regardless of there intention are a breach of the act. The act is broad... yes... and was created before the internet was in place. But after talking with the lawyer, he explained that the act was created that way to cover future scope. So simply put. If you are a member of the SAFF as per this definition A SAFF Member is defined as:- • A person whose place of residence is South Australia. Then by law a member is entitled to vote regardless of there posting situation.... All you can really do is state that the member has to be active, the definition of active has to be based on the lowest possible outcome for the members of the state. E.g. It would be unreasonable for someone living in Pt Augusta / Berri / Renmark to attend 3 SAFF events a year. So it is why you generally state that 1 SAFF event a year and say 1 - 2 posts per 6 months can be deemed as active. E.g. of what i am talking about is Tyken Rarely Posts (He has done as of late) by your definition he is not a member of the SAFF as he has not posted 12 times over a year and only attended one troop in costume. Another e.g. is myself. Last SAFF event i went to was the Dinner, prior to that it was the norwood xmas pageant. For over a year i was unable to attend regular events due to RL and work responsibilities. Yet i live in SA and i am a member. Regardless of the situation you are trying to put everything in to a neat little box which simply doesn't work. And this is why when you create rules to govern membership / voting you need to make it to the lowest common denominator. -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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halibut Title: FF GSA & FF-UK RSA / Saga Mod Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 7/22 4:53am Subject: A message from the CR
	This word "rights" seems to be thrown around a lot here. FF Membership and voting in CR elections is a privilege, and not a right. We are under no obligation to accept votes if we wish, and we are under no obligation to accept the result of a vote. We can promote who we wish. We can ban who we wish and for whatever reason we wish. FF is not an association or an official club or anything like that. It's a group of people who like to meet up and have fun. That's all it is. I really suggest you just move on. -----signature----- They are not "songs", they are "tracks" or "cues" ROTJ - "It has a nice mix of muppets and patricide that you don't see very often" - Darthboba Everybody knows that the bird is the word!
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Obi-Wan_Toddi Title: CR: SAFF Registered: Feb '05	Date Posted: 7/22 5:00am Subject: A message from the CR
	I was about to say "but we're not an association", but thanks, halibut, for clarifying that. -----signature----- Come to the lightside ... we have chocolate! Australia's First General Kenobi http://www.billywigs.com/ "Fail with honour rather than succeed by fraud" - TCW Ep12 http://www.km4kt.com/
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oz_skipp Title: Second In Charge - SAFF Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 7/22 5:33am Subject: A message from the CR
	halibut posted: FF is not an association or an official club or anything like that. It's a group of people who like to meet up and have fun. That's all it is. Snap. But you know what, the fun aspect has been forgotten by some. Which is a shame. -----signature----- The official website of ROOT! the band - http://www.roottheband.com.au/ Support me during Movember 2009: http://au.movember.com/mospace/21391 Llamasoft make great games. Never heard of them? Go to http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/
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Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/22 6:01am Subject: A message from the CR
	Actually the Legal Definition of an Association is 'In general, an association is a group of persons banded together for a specific purpose.' Quote:- Australian Law Book That may not be specifically related to the SAFF's online activities but it certainly relates to the specifics of Real World Events. Like it or not, when we step out in to the real world and do a SAFF event, that event falls under legal codes and practices. For those purposes we are an association. So just because halibut says it's not the case, the reality is that it is as long as the saff continues to do public appearances. Otherwise the SAFF as a group in real life could break any law and not be held accountable. Plus i am all for 'getting over it' But you cannot maintain the stance that it's the members decision to ratify these proposed amendments and yet dictate without discussion that it's simply going to happen. And for the record, halibut you've just made a rather interesting comment, one that i've suspected for some time but didn't have the proof to confirm. But i will say this As a forum moderator myself, you are right, but you've also just made the entire FF Elections completely irrelevant, utterly pointless and shown that You and possibly others are more interested in power mongering than supporting the causes and spirit of the Fan Force. Which last i checked was put in place for Star Wars Fan's in the local areas to simply have fun. How much fun is a group when you are forced to do things, There are no perks. There is nothing other than speaking on an online forum with fellow star wars fans..... Memories of High School are flickering in my mind -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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halibut Title: FF GSA & FF-UK RSA / Saga Mod Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 7/22 6:06am Subject: A message from the CR
	"you've also just made the entire FF Elections completely irrelevant, utterly pointless and shown that You and possibly others are more interested in power mongering than supporting the causes and spirit of the Fan Force. " Not at all. I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we CAN do. You're implying that that means that is what we DO do. I believe that's a straw man argument. -----signature----- They are not "songs", they are "tracks" or "cues" ROTJ - "It has a nice mix of muppets and patricide that you don't see very often" - Darthboba Everybody knows that the bird is the word!
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oz_skipp Title: Second In Charge - SAFF Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 7/22 6:16am Subject: A message from the CR
	Quinten_JarVos posted: But you cannot maintain the stance that it's the members decision to ratify these proposed amendments and yet dictate without discussion that it's simply going to happen. Indeed, they were put up for people to ratify, but discussion is welcome. My stance is that they are there for no other ulterior motives other than to ensure that people who vote for a CR are people who are actively involved in SAFF online and in person. It could be argued that SAFF is an official association by default. It could also be argued that it isn't because nothing has been legally ratified. It could be argued that this is being done at the behest of the mods for the betterment of the group. It could also be argued that it is to get them / us / whoever power. It could be argued that this breaks laws. It could also be argued that it doesn't. It could be argued ad nauseum. But that's what this was designed to avoid. To bring the group together. To get people involved. If you're involved, no problems. No-one is being denied membership or removed. It was designed to avoid high school like behaviour. I'll shut up now. -----signature----- The official website of ROOT! the band - http://www.roottheband.com.au/ Support me during Movember 2009: http://au.movember.com/mospace/21391 Llamasoft make great games. Never heard of them? Go to http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/
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Quinten_JarVos Registered: Aug '04	Date Posted: 7/22 6:22am Subject: A message from the CR
	halibut posted: Not at all. I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we CAN do. You're implying that that means that is what we DO do. I believe that's a straw man argument. Sounds like a Bushism to me. As a wise man once said 'A man will fight harder for his interests than for his rights.' My interests are something that you probably have no clue about -----signature----- Grand Admiral of the SAFF Sith Lord and Warrior of the Southern Empire 501st Legion Terror Australis Garrison WebMaster - TB1259 ============================================ Through power I gain victory!!!
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halibut Title: FF GSA & FF-UK RSA / Saga Mod Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 7/22 6:25am Subject: A message from the CR
	I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about there. -----signature----- They are not "songs", they are "tracks" or "cues" ROTJ - "It has a nice mix of muppets and patricide that you don't see very often" - Darthboba Everybody knows that the bird is the word!
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oz_skipp Title: Second In Charge - SAFF Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 7/22 6:27am Subject: A message from the CR
	I said I'll shut up...in a minute Quinten_JarVos posted: How much fun is a group when you are forced to do things, There are no perks. There is nothing other than speaking on an online forum with fellow star wars fans..... It's called friendship. Friendship not being defined by whatever group I'm in. It seems I've lost friends, or they've at least dropped off the radar, because I haven't joined a certain group or I choose to hang with this group. Which is a big shame, but such is life. For some of us, the fun of hanging around with fellow Star Wars fans who we consider friends is enough of a perk. Sometimes we do other stuff, sometimes we just hang out. I'd like to get involved in the RL or 501st, but that's primarily a costumed thing. Even though there's people I like in those groups, I wouldn't feel comfortable joining due to not intending to do anything costume wise in the forseeable future. Here I'm not forced or even encouraged to have a costume. That's enough for me at this point. It was made pretty clear that that's not enough for quite a few people. That's fine. Each to their own and all that. --- But seriously, if I brought 10, 20, 50 people onto these boards to join up and post a few times and then vote for me, would that be fair? This is what we're trying to avoid. On a similar note, I made comment about about the behavioural code that EI introduced years ago and was concerned about it not being legally enforcable. But nothing was made of that, and all of what was in there was sensible, so I left it well alone. If you're involved in SAFF, then I don't get what the issue is with a self-determined, sensible mode of operation by the active members of a group. But I guess we can agree to disagree if this doesn't seem sensible. -----signature----- The official website of ROOT! the band - http://www.roottheband.com.au/ Support me during Movember 2009: http://au.movember.com/mospace/21391 Llamasoft make great games. Never heard of them? Go to http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/
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