Jedi Council Forums - Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Films » Star Wars and Film Music »

Post Reply | Active Topic Notification | Previous Active Topic | Next Active Topic

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
Strilo Title: Manager • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/24/07 12:30pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Hey look I am fine with John Williams not doing the scores for Harry Potter. I am NOT fine with completely throwing out the musical world he established in THREE films and starting from scratch for the fourth. Then completely throwing all that out and starting over from scratch again on the fifth. It's a bleeding mess now. My point all along, since it was announced that GOF would not be scored by Williams, is that whoever took over should continue in the tradition formed by the first three scores. Lush, rich sounding, similarly orchestrated, using leitmotif and just in general tying directly to the first three scores. This means using some of the themes from Williams scores, sorry guys. I strongly believe that this should have been done with far more than just Hedwig's theme. For a series of films as well established as Harry Potter, and for scores as recognizable as the Harry Potter Williams' scores, there is NOTHING wrong with emulating that style to a significant extent. Twice now we've had new and relatively unknown composers come in and instead of doing this, they went off in their own direction and wrote mediocre scores. I don't expect these scores to be as good as Williams' best stuff. I do expect them not to be mediocre and sub par to the point where people who don't even normally care about music or notice it in film as saying how bad the music was. THAT speaks volumes, no matter what all the film score fanboys say about Doyle or Hooper's work. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "And therefore blah blah blah your mom..."
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Vader-Anakin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/24/07 12:44pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/24/07 12:50pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Vader-Anakin
	Something else that you must realize though is that these later movies/books are completely different in tone from the first two and to an extent the third. They are much darker and more mature. To emulate Williams' style from those films would be inappropriate. EDIT: I know it was pretty much set in stone already, but David Yates did announce earlier on XM Satellite Radio's "Reel Time" that Hooper will be back and has already started on working on ideas for Half-Blood Prince.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Strilo Title: Manager • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/24/07 12:48pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Of course, that is a no brainer. It is possible to match the tone of the later films while still staying within the musical world Williams established. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "And therefore blah blah blah your mom..."
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
andy1044 Registered: Aug '06	Date Posted: 7/24/07 12:52pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/24/07 12:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: andy1044
	Darth_Vader-Anakin posted: Something else that you must realize though is that these later movies/books are completely different in tone from the first two and to an extent the third. They are much darker and more mature. To emulate Williams' style from those films would be inappropriate. The composer wouldn't need to emulate his style, only develop on the themes established by Williams to fit the mood and style of the film. Maintaining thematic continuity is one of the most important parts of storytelling, and sadly, the lack of at least a few hints at Williams' other themes has been a little disappointing. -----signature----- Are you looking for original music for your film? Look no further! Samples of my work can be heard at: http://www.soundclick.com/andyskrabutenas PM me or send an email to andy1044@aol.com if you are interested.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Vader-Anakin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/24/07 12:55pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/24/07 12:59pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Vader-Anakin
	But see, as the films changed directors, the look and feel of each film has been quite different. Sure, the sets and actors have stayed the same (by and large), but the cinematography has radically changed, the way the editing has changed, but why must the music stick to a certain sound. andy1044 posted: Darth_Vader-Anakin posted: Something else that you must realize though is that these later movies/books are completely different in tone from the first two and to an extent the third. They are much darker and more mature. To emulate Williams' style from those films would be inappropriate. The composer wouldn't need to emulate his style, only develop on the themes established by Williams to fit the mood and style of the film. Maintaining thematic continuity is one of the most important parts of storytelling, and sadly, the lack of at least a few hints at Williams' other themes has been a little disappointing. I'll admit that the lack of including "A Window to the Past" has been a big disappointment, but I haven't been too upset with the exclusion of other themes. Other than that and Hedwig's Theme, no other themes comes to mind as being particularly pertinent to the other films.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Strilo Title: Manager • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/24/07 2:22pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/24/07 2:24pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Strilo
	You are not listening to what I am saying. I am not saying the music needs to stick to the same sound. I am saying they needed to develop and progress based firmly to the existing three films. They needed to build off what Williams developed instead of completely throwing it all out and starting over almost entirely. Using similar approaches to scoring, using a leitmotif setup, using similar orchestrations (albeit darker and more mature). Using the themes previously established for major characters. Basically it feels like Doyle and Hooper were like "**** John Williams, we don't need his crap. We can do WAY better ourselves" and then they didn't. I can't help but think of them as kids trying to outdo the old man and failing miserably. EDIT: And sorry... the Weasley's exit in OOTP needed one of the flying themes, perhaps Nimbus 2000. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "And therefore blah blah blah your mom..."
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Vader-Anakin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/24/07 2:43pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/24/07 3:10pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Vader-Anakin
	Strilo posted: You are not listening to what I am saying. I am not saying the music needs to stick to the same sound. I am saying they needed to develop and progress based firmly to the existing three films. They needed to build off what Williams developed instead of completely throwing it all out and starting over almost entirely. Using similar approaches to scoring, using a leitmotif setup, using similar orchestrations (albeit darker and more mature). Using the themes previously established for major characters. It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself. You say they don't need to stick to the same sound but that they should use similar scoring techniques, orchestration, and leitmotif. With all those similarities, wouldn't they sound like an interpretation of Williams? It seems that you want them to stick with the style that Williams developed for the series, but other composers aren't going to be able to do that. They have to orchestrate and approach the score in their own style. If not, they might sound infinitely worse. And there is definitely some leitmotif in GoF and OotP. They may not be as particularly memorable as William's material, but they are there. Strilo posted: And sorry... the Weasley's exit in OOTP needed one of the flying themes, perhaps Nimbus 2000. That was one of the weaker moments of Hooper's score. EDITED for my idiotic remark about the Nimbus 2000 theme. For some reason I was thinking of something completely different.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Strilo Title: Manager • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/24/07 2:53pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	No it's the difference between "same" and "similar". They have different meanings. And using multiple themes from Williams' work is paramount to me. Not doing that was a huge mistake and it caused the films to musically suffer. As for them using leitmotif but not being memorable, that's what I am talking about when I say this: Basically it feels like Doyle and Hooper were like "**** John Williams, we don't need his crap. We can do WAY better ourselves" and then they didn't. I can't help but think of them as kids trying to outdo the old man and failing miserably. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "And therefore blah blah blah your mom..."
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Cerrabore Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 7/24/07 3:49pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Strilo, calm down. As a composer, I can attest that it is much more satisfying to write original material than to faithful recreate another's. The exception comes when dealt iconic music like "Hedwig's Theme." If I were hired to write the Half-Blood Prince score, would I want to use "Hedwig's Theme"? Of course! Would I want to use it eighteen times, keeping the harmonies and orchestrations identical to Williams's at all times? Of course not! When it comes right down to it, being bound tightly by others' precedents crushes creativity. Look at Don Davis's Jurassic Park III. The only worthy portions of this score are the few that don't faithfully reuse all of Williams's themes.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Jedi-Washington Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 7/24/07 8:59pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	So half-blood prince has been decided on composer wise it seems, and perhaps Hooper will step it up also. As for using Williams theme's, Doyle broke the tradition, and we can't go that route anymore, unfortunately. I would have loved to see how Williams would have progressed the themes as the characters had grown (as he did for Star Wars), but there is no chance of that now, so Strilo's hope of using previous material I think is lost at this point unfortunately. As for the difference in composition and other creative aspects of the series, such as the editing and cinematography, I find those aspects changeable. Sets you can change, sound effects you can change, shooting, editing, scripts...those can change all they need to. Music is different though. it's a character unto itself. Watching even a film without music can render it the most disastrous and embarrassing trash. Acting doesn't carry it alone with film, as the camera limits performance available with live theater. Therefore, I consider music a character, just like Daniel Radcliff plays Harry, or Rupert plays Ron. When you break that continuity between films in a series, people don't react warmly. The series already suffered a huge loss of Richard Harris as Dumbledore and people were a little put off. I find it very telling that as the composers have changed, the reviews i get from others about the film are critical. Music plays on emotions of people. This series needs an emotional composer. someone who can express, not just write notes on a page. The whole point of the series is to help young people with the idea and realization of Death. Hooper and Doyle just...don't speak that well to the message. They don't know how to make a person feel a scene, not just watch it. There are very few film composers I've found who know how to make a person feel a scene. I don't think Williams makes the best themes in the world, I don't think he is necessarily even the best composer when it comes to timing to film. What I appreciate from Williams is his approach that fits a scene emotionally. Every note has a purpose. Hooper and Doyle have used too many notes, and as a result, the score is cluttered and ineffective in my opinion. I do need to note other composers though, as I know John Williams is not really known for coming back into series. -Mike Giacchino - He's done a wonderful job with some of the emotional scenes in the Pixar films, and I think he might do a wonderful job if given the chance. -Danny Elfman - has a very interesting style that might fit the films well, and he knows emotion fairly well. -Elliot Goldenthal - Someone mentioned him, which would actually work, I think. Not a bad composer at all! His cues are never that long, unfortunately, but I think he would do wonderful. ~JW -----signature----- Whee! [Insert insperational quote from clichéd book or movie]
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Cerrabore Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 7/24/07 10:36pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Jedi-Washington posted: As for the difference in composition and other creative aspects of the series, such as the editing and cinematography, I find those aspects changeable. Sets you can change, sound effects you can change, shooting, editing, scripts...those can change all they need to. Music is different though. it's a character unto itself. Watching even a film without music can render it the most disastrous and embarrassing trash. Acting doesn't carry it alone with film, as the camera limits performance available with live theater. Therefore, I consider music a character, just like Daniel Radcliffe plays Harry, or Rupert plays Ron. When you break that continuity between films in a series, people don't react warmly. The series already suffered a huge loss of Richard Harris as Dumbledore and people were a little put off. I find it very telling that as the composers have changed, the reviews i get from others about the film are critical. The reviews you have gotten "from others"? I'm not sure what that means, but in general reviews of Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban agreed that the film was infinitely better than the two and a half hour monstrosity that is Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (I just watched the extended edition, and the restored scenes only drag the eyelids lower, save for a ten-second gag with Gilderoy Lockhart at the end). Continuity? Forget it. If directors had stuck to the continuity and style of Chris Columbus, Goblet of Fire would have been five hours long, and half of it would have been spent on Ludo Bagman's gambling problems. As for Williams's hypothetical musical score? Expect everyone from Harry Potter to Dean Thomas to have a "theme," and for fans to argue over Williams's use of Viktor Krum's theme for a line of Igor Karkaroff's (is it because they represent the same school, or did Williams's finally make a mistake?) and which music cue is their favorite: the light-hearted, bumbling rendition of "Nimbus 2000" for Wormtail's approach in the graveyard or the reprise of "Harry's Wondrous World" for the end credits. Sadly, such a score did not occur, as our dear Columbus was replaced with a competent director and Williams later left the series. Having not seen Columbus's films in a while, I was shocked at the dullness and stupidity of them when we were reacquainted. Richard Harris delivered reasonable performances (barely reasonable in Chamber, but you can hardly blame the man for being on his death bed), but they are wholly without energy - while Michael Gambon's are pulse-quickening. As for the music, I hope anyone didn't take the above paragraph seriously, but Williams really does drag down scenes in many points in Chamber. The first time you hear one, a Williams "ominous" cue sounds unnerving in a childish way. The seven thousandth time, you just want to die. Prancing and whimsical curiosity and flighty mock danger are not things Doyle and Hooper brought to the table, but seriousness is. So forget the continuity of the originals. Nobody over the age of nine should have to bear it.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Strilo Title: Manager • Music • Prequel Trilogy Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/24/07 11:43pm Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Well I think the composers following Williams should have thought less about their own satisfaction and thought more about what was good for the music of the series and the tone that was set. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "And therefore blah blah blah your mom..."
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Cerrabore Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 7/25/07 12:02am Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	It's more likely that the composers were thinking about their directors' satisfaction. Eager as they know doubt were to gleefully demolish the world established by John Williams (after all, you seem to view the abandonment of Williams's style as an arrogant, personal insult to the maestro), their function first and foremost was to write what their directors wanted. David Yates has spoken endlessly of his reverence for Hooper, who is always his composer, and I believe Mike Newell has employed Doyle several times. By the way, what tone? Why do seven films released within a span of ten years have to have the same tone? It's impossible to expect the same sort of film when directors, screenwriters, actors, special effects companies and set designs routinely change. Even the actors that have stayed through all the films have changed. Alan Rickman - a subtly showier and more flamboyant Snape originally, but grittily toned down for Prisoner of Azkaban. Robbie Coltrane - light-hearted and comical turned gruffer and warier. The trio has, of course, changed completely in appearance and personality, and while this can be expected, given their ages (doubled since Sorcerer's Stone), they are impressionable and easy to change in style. Watch a few behind the scenes interviews to see how the various directors have coached these kids.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth_Vader-Anakin Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/25/07 12:11am Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince
	Strilo posted: Well I think the composers following Williams should have ... thought more about what was good for the music of the series and the tone that was set. That's the whole point though. The tone, style, sound whatever you want to call it that was established by Williams is no longer appropriate. Williams disregarded almost all his original compositions when he wrote Azkaban. Except for a few instances of Hedwig's Theme and a very short reprisal of Nimbus 2000 at the end, the score for the first two movies and Azkaban are radically different. The films changed, therefore the sound changed. If Williams can throw out almost all continuity, why can't the other composers? Yes, a few of the very well established themes (Hedwig, A Window to the Past) should make brief appareances, but the composers should write music for the film on the screen and ignore Williams.
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
__Vader__ Registered: May '05	Date Posted: 7/25/07 2:47am Subject: RE: Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - Date Edited: 7/25/07 2:52am (1 edits total) Edited By: __Vader__
	SPOILER ALERT!! SPOILER ALERT!! SPOILER ALERT!! Like OoTP, HPB is a mammoth-sized snore-fest compared to the other books. Naturally the film is going to be scraping the barrel for decent action scenes. The score, in turn will suffer in "Excitement" levels. To make this score decent, Hooper will really have to get his act together and accomplish the following: Build tremendously on the small ammount of thematic material he established in OoTP Ramp up Dumbledore's Death/Funeral to Operatic proportions. (No holding back like in previous character's deaths, this needs to be full-on choir) Maybe a new Horcrux theme or similar. This is arguably the darkest book. No happy music.(Jigs, Waltzes, Songs, etc) Please no "Slughorn's theme" Hooper is guilty of ignoring John William's and Patrick Doyle's leitmotif (As is Doyle) and to make amends he will have to pull out all the stops for this movie. People may remember the Harry Potter scores yet. -----signature----- Obi-Wan never told you what happended to your father...
	Post Reply \| Quote Reply \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 - Previous | Next | Reload

Jedi Council Forums » Star Wars Films » Star Wars and Film Music »