Author Topic: Clashing Lightsabers
General Kenobi 
Title: Administrator Emeritus
Registered: Dec '98
23548_Duel
Date Posted: 9/28/07 9:52pm Subject: Clashing Lightsabers
This CT thread discussing the lack of score in the duels prompted my response below.

I know we've talked about it here and there in various threads, but here's a thread to tie them all together.

How do you view the score (or lack thereof) as JW composed it for each lightsaber battle? Too much? Not enough? How do you rate the themes? What might have worked better? Which are your favorites?

General Kenobi posted:
The TPM lightsaber fights were between combatants who did not know each other. No need for small talk. One of GL's great concepts is the idea of the "silent film" - just the cinematography and score tells the story and conveys the emotion. So you get "Duel Of The Fates".

The AOTC battles had a bit of conversation, and no overwhelming score. I find these to be the least satisfying of the Saga.

In ROTS, "The" duel was between two incredibly close individuals, and they were mostly beyond words (just scathing bookend dialog.) So you get "Battle Of The Heroes". The Yoda/Palpy duel didn't need words either, after all the cards were on the table. Hence the DOTF reprise.

The ANH duel does require dialog between Obi-Wan and Vader. Sure, in retrospect, JW could maybe add a somber PT-themed-reprise of some sort (see About rescoring the Saga). But that might dampen the sweeping effect of "Ben's Death/TIE Fighter Attack".

In ESB, the dialog between Luke and Vader is quite important at the beginning and end. And of course, for the middle act of that duel, we get "The Clash Of Lightsabers".

No need to elaborate on the greatness of the climax that is "The Dark Side Beckons". My lament for its absence from the OST was intense; much VHS tape was fast-forwarded. I think adding that track would have bolstered album sales.

 

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DarthButt 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '03
8218_Vader<br>Underoos
Date Posted: 9/28/07 10:31pm Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers
I agree with everything you've said, Scott. I was going to post this in the CT thread, but decided to post here: How about the first third of the ESB duel? Lots of dialogue, yet no score. The well timed lack of score in a scene is almost as important as a scored scene. Ironically (for this forum), I think this was a critical part in setting the tone of the entire duel.

 

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General Kenobi 
Title: Administrator Emeritus
Registered: Dec '98
23548_Duel
Date Posted: 9/28/07 10:46pm Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers - Date Edited: 9/28/07 10:47pm (1 edits total) Edited By: General Kenobi
JW actually scored part of that scene. It's even on the ESB SE soundtrack, at the end of the "Carbon Freeze/Darth Vader's Trap/Departure of Boba Fett" track (starts about 10:20-ish, I think). There's a great Force Theme statement (about 10:58 mark) included. It scores the part where Vader pushes Luke into the carbon freeze pit, then Luke jumps out ("All too easy.").

Though it's a fantastic end to that long track, I'm not sure how well that would work in the film. I just love how the tortured Imperial March in "The Clash Of Lightsabers" rises in the middle of the action, after the quiet of the beginning. Great synchronicity there.

 

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DarthButt 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Jun '03
8218_Vader<br>Underoos
Date Posted: 9/28/07 11:08pm Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers
I think that is part of what made that scene so powerfull. This is the first time the duel is scored. And one hell of a score at that. We see Vader at full intimidation here, and at the same time we hear the Imperial March in it's full intimidation. A great way to introduce Vader's fury, and JW's score at the same time. Perfection.

 

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TheBoogieMan 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '01
22994_Tarkin
Date Posted: 9/29/07 2:10am Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers
Clash of Lightsabers, is of course, brilliant.

But I've never loved Battle of the Heroes. It's just a cookie-cutter theme in my eyes; nothing special at all.

 

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TwiLekJedi 
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered: Jun '01
46247_TFN Turns "10"
Date Posted: 9/29/07 8:56am Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers
While I don't hold it in that low regard, I tend to agree that it's not all it'c cracked up to be. I actually like the little part at the beginning of the concert suite before the chorus. From that, it could have gone in a wholly different direction, I think. But, The Duel required "grand" music so we got an attempt at grand, tragic DotF. *shrugs*


Wait, did nobody quote Ben Burtt yet? You know, the thing about how the sound of the clashing lightsabers is almost musical in itself wink

I don't know if I'd call it musical, but it sure as hell is atmospheric. All thos suggestion to put any music at all into the ANH duel makes me cringe. Especially the sizzling/crackling of the sabers when they're locked conveys ... age. Which is true both for the combatants ( tongue ) and the conflict itself.

Actually, a reprise of any PT theme would lessen the scene to become "just a replrise" of a PT scene itself.


And retroactively, the scoring of the duels in the CT works for the whole Saga, too. In ANH everything has been quiet lately, especially the Jedi vs. Sith thing. TESB gets a little scoring with Clash of Lightsabers, which doesn't last long and the music only reappears the instant Vader ends the duel by chopping off Luke's hand.
RotJ scores (almost?) all lightsaber action, but it's less story-telling in itself rather than "just" underscoring (though I can't help but mainly think of the little flourish when Luke does the backflip up onto the catwalk tongue ).
But as soon as Luke is unleashed we have what? A great choral piece, just like in the PT! What a coincidence tongue However, it's not quite DotF or BotH (or Anakin's Dark Deeds, for that matter). It sounds more like it's only just emerging, not a hall-filling action chorus. Probably because it's a male choir. Or a lot of women with deep singing voices. Whatever the term is tongue

At least that's my interpretation I just made up on the spot after sleeping too much wink

 

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SithMaster_69 
Registered: May '07
42315_Sith Eye
Date Posted: 10/1/07 2:39pm Subject: RE: Clashing Lightsabers
As I said in that thread, leave it be.

Sometimes a lack of music works just as well as having dramatic music. The OT duels work fine as they are.
Sometimes the music can get in the way of the action, & in others...enhance it.

 

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