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Author	Topic: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
Rilwen_Shadowflame Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/26/06 2:02am Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	"I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form- or the master of a classic form?" Mace Windu, ROTS novel. He directed the words at Obi-Wan, true...but you don't get much more classic than Dooku's Makashi. I believe that is all the evidence I need at this juncture- it being a solid quote, after all... If Mace believes Obi-Wan greater for using a classic form, rather than one chosen to answer a weakness...surely it must hold true for Dooku. Unless you can think of a weakness Makashi answers for him, of course...doubtful. ~Rilwen -----signature----- Sith Master in the Acolytes of Darkness ~Sith Trials Lvl 9 Sith Warrior- Sith Assassin~ Count Dooku in the Sleepy Game "You're always combative. You could be saying "I love you, dearest!" and make it look like a threat/insult."-Jello
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/26/06 1:06pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/26/06 1:08pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Hiatus
	Darth-Vassago posted: 40075_Count Dooku Date Posted: 1:12am Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 1:18am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Vassago Darth_Hiatus posted:Agreed. I see your points. It would make sense that Yoda knew of Dooku's strengths to a degree that he could pwn Dooku without any effort. Also, I overlooked the observation that only Mace was said to be Dooku's equal on neutral ground. Yoda's just better. I would, however, disagree that Dooku out-psyched Mace! cry Mace faced off pretty well. Well, if you except the whole super battle droid thing. Again, I'm a huge fan of Dooku. I think that he could, when it came down to it, defeat Mace, but not Yoda. Dooku is not Mace's equal. As I said prior; Dooku is superior. His mastery of the lightsaber was unmatched...except by Yoda, I guess. On that note: Yoda could hardly "pwn" Dooku without any effort; if I recall, he looked quite winded on Geonosis. happy Dooku did out-psyche Mace. Dooku was very good with mind games; Mace was just arrogant. Even when he and the Jedi were clearly out numbered, he didn't surrender. No, no. Instead of saving the lives of his Jedi brothers and sisters, he wanted to win!! Want to beat old Dooku, didn't he? Yes, he did. If not for Yoda...Mace would've been dead a movie sooner. ~Vassago Nope. I see you haven't read Dark Rendezvous? Dooku acknowledged -- or rather, the narrative acknowledged for him -- that Mace was his equal on neutral ground. No offence, but I think you're a tad biased; you think Dooku could beat anyone because you like him. Of course, I feel the same way about Vader. As for Yoda "pwn"ing Dooku without effort, that was an exaggeration, of course. If you have Dark Rendezvous, refer to it. As for Mace being arrogant, what else could he have done? Run off and leave Anakin and Obi-Wan to die? No; Mace was noble, not arrogant. -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/26/06 1:58pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	I think Mace is a better overall combatant, but I think Dooku will usually, if not always, be able to defeat him because of their past history.
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/26/06 3:05pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	Sorry, would you mind elaborating? I'm not trying to be difficult, just genuinely curious. Do you mean as in their past duels? Thanks. -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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Rilwen_Shadowflame Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 5/27/06 12:37am Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/27/06 12:42am (1 edits total) Edited By: Rilwen_Shadowflame
	Darth_Hiatus posted: Nope. I see you haven't read Dark Rendezvous? Dooku acknowledged -- or rather, the narrative acknowledged for him -- that Mace was his equal on neutral ground. No offence, but I think you're a tad biased; you think Dooku could beat anyone because you like him. Of course, I feel the same way about Vader. As for Yoda "pwn"ing Dooku without effort, that was an exaggeration, of course. If you have Dark Rendezvous, refer to it. As for Mace being arrogant, what else could he have done? Run off and leave Anakin and Obi-Wan to die? No; Mace was noble, not arrogant. Mace? Noble? And both he and I have Dark Rendezvous...as posts in this thread clearly state. Care to quote the relevant section? Anyone can say 'it says so-and-so, therefore I win!'...the quote from the ROTS novel, you seem to have ignored. -----signature----- Sith Master in the Acolytes of Darkness ~Sith Trials Lvl 9 Sith Warrior- Sith Assassin~ Count Dooku in the Sleepy Game "You're always combative. You could be saying "I love you, dearest!" and make it look like a threat/insult."-Jello
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/27/06 12:39pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	The quote actually was posted by someone else earlier in the thread; it says that Dooku thinks of Mace as his equal on neutral ground. I'm not even the one who thought of that quote to use. As for Mace being noble, you think he isn't? He was respected by every person in the Republic, and was its most heartfelt supporter. It says this in the ROTS novel. -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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Robal_Krahl Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 5/27/06 2:25pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	Darth_Hiatus posted: Nope. I see you haven't read Dark Rendezvous? Dooku acknowledged -- or rather, the narrative acknowledged for him -- that Mace was his equal on neutral ground. No offence, but I think you're a tad biased; you think Dooku could beat anyone because you like him. Of course, I feel the same way about Vader. As for Yoda "pwn"ing Dooku without effort, that was an exaggeration, of course. If you have Dark Rendezvous, refer to it. As for Mace being arrogant, what else could he have done? Run off and leave Anakin and Obi-Wan to die? No; Mace was noble, not arrogant. If Mace was indeed the equal of Dooku, he would have been sent to stop the Dooku-trainted Grievous, not Obi-Wan. Windu acknowledged the fact that Obi-Wan was better than him with the saber, and it is well-known that Dooku was Kenobi's superior. Mace was actually both noble and arrogant; noble in the fact that he came to rescue his charges, his friends, but arrogant in the fact that he just walked up there. His plan of attack was a poor one; he should have sent few Jedi into the arena, and focus most of his troops on sabotaging the droid factories in a covert manner. A direct assault would be disasterous, and was. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the DLC You're no daisy... you're no daisy at all.
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/27/06 2:39pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	Okay, first of all: Grievous was weaker than Dooku anyway. While indeed powerful, he couldn't use the Force, and anyway, Mace most likely had the intention to stay just in case Sidious made his move. I acknowledge that this isn't certain. As for a few Jedi being sent to the arena, the Council knew that the entire place was filled with thousands of Battle Droids thanks to Oni-Wan's partial report via the HoloNet. They sent all the Jedi they could because they didn't know that Yoda would bring a clone army to help them. -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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sabarte Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/27/06 3:20pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	I think people are underestimating Mace here. I think, vs. some master swordsman who knew neither of them, Mace would do better. But I also think Dooku would beat Mace. The EU is not unambiguous here, so don't use a single quote as if it proves everthing - for one, it's sloppu.
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Robal_Krahl Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 5/27/06 5:56pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/27/06 6:05pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Robal_Krahl
	Darth_Hiatus posted: Okay, first of all: Grievous was weaker than Dooku anyway. While indeed powerful, he couldn't use the Force, and anyway, Mace most likely had the intention to stay just in case Sidious made his move. I acknowledge that this isn't certain. As for a few Jedi being sent to the arena, the Council knew that the entire place was filled with thousands of Battle Droids thanks to Oni-Wan's partial report via the HoloNet. They sent all the Jedi they could because they didn't know that Yoda would bring a clone army to help them. First of all, you just proved my point; if Mace was so great, so familiar with Dooku's style, he would have been the prime candidate to take out the person who was trained by Dooku. But he wasnt, and didnt. And Mace did not have the intention of staying; when Anakin came to him, he was prepping time to leave Coruscant. He only stayed when he recieved news that Palpatine was indeed Sidious. Yes, the Council did know that it was filling with thousands of battle droids; all the more reason why their plan of attack was foolish. They should have taken the sabotage appraoch that I had mentioned earlier. I think people are underestimating Mace here. I think, vs. some master swordsman who knew neither of them, Mace would do better. But I also think Dooku would beat Mace. The EU is not unambiguous here, so don't use a single quote as if it proves everthing - for one, it's sloppu. Mace is powerful, no denying. But he just isnt good enough to beat Dooku. And the EU should be taken into account, seeing as this is a Dooku Fanclub, and Dooku has a place in the EU. Whether you like it or not, it will be taken into account; not trying to sound like a jerk here, but when examining who would beat who, you have to take all sources into account. Leaving certain ones out because you dont like them will get you torn up pretty quick. As for the EU being sloppy... well.... "Do you remember your mother? Your real mother?" "Just a little bit..." Padme = teh dead right after child birth. No memory for Leia. One of many errors in the PT. I could give more, if you wish. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the DLC You're no daisy... you're no daisy at all.
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/27/06 6:39pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/27/06 6:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Hiatus
	Okay, where did it ever say that Mace was prepping to leave Coruscant? In the movie he gave no indication of this, nor did he in the novel. Don't forget, after Labirynth of Evil, Mace was determined to hunt down Sidious, and probably wanted to be there no matter what. And anyway, they were just prepping to see the Chancellor, not leave the planet. Also, Mace and the others didn't know until after the Invisible Hand fiasco that Grievous had been trained by Dooku. In aforementioned novel by James Luceno, there was only some suspicion; and that's ignoring the fact that Grievous can't obtain anything like Dooku's style. He can mimic the most basic principals of a sword style. Dooku's style was his own. And which sources am I leaving out? I have seen no canonical sources state that Dooku was stronger than Mace, just some fans. Show me some proof, and I'll believe you without a fight. The sabotage plan: how would the Jedi know where to sabotage? -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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Robal_Krahl Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 5/27/06 10:21pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	Okay, where did it ever say that Mace was prepping to leave Coruscant? In the movie he gave no indication of this, nor did he in the novel. Don't forget, after Labirynth of Evil, Mace was determined to hunt down Sidious, and probably wanted to be there no matter what. And anyway, they were just prepping to see the Chancellor, not leave the planet. Loading up Republic Gunships and the like = leaving. A Jedi as high as Mace would not supervise the loading of ships if he was not going; it's something that is left to those of lower rank. Also, Mace and the others didn't know until after the Invisible Hand fiasco that Grievous had been trained by Dooku. In aforementioned novel by James Luceno, there was only some suspicion; and that's ignoring the fact that Grievous can't obtain anything like Dooku's style. He can mimic the most basic principals of a sword style. Dooku's style was his own. Logical deduction; even if suspicions were the only thing they had. Grievous worked under Dooku. Grievous wields lightsabers. Therefore, since Dooku was an excellent swordsman, it is logical to surmise that Dooku did indeed train Grievous. Minimally, at the very least. You stated that there were suspicions, which means they should have sent their best possible Jedi. If Mace was Dooku's equal, he would have been sent to stop Dooku's protoge. And which sources am I leaving out? I have seen no canonical sources state that Dooku was stronger than Mace, just some fans. Show me some proof, and I'll believe you without a fight. The sabotage plan: how would the Jedi know where to sabotage? I never said you left out a source; where did I say that? But would you like to see some evidence of Dooku being a better swordsman than Mace? Yoda > Mace Dooku = Yoda Dooku > Mace This is, obviously, in terms of skill with the saber, not power in the Force. To say that Dooku was as powerful in the Force as Yoda would be wrong. As for how the Jedi knowing what to sabotage, why, it's quite simple. Orbital scan. Bing, bang, boom, location of droid factories. Then a strafing run on the area with their starfighters, while a transport lands to pull them out. But the way the Jedi planned it was stupid; they stored far too much confidence in their abilities. And that's counting what they knew: thousand of Geonosians vs 200 Jedi. If you believe a force of 200 could face down a force of thousands, Force or no Force, you are showing extreme arrogance. That's not to say that it wasn't heroic; it was very much so. But you can be heroic and arrogant at the same time. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the DLC You're no daisy... you're no daisy at all.
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Darth_Hiatus Registered: May '06	Date Posted: 5/28/06 10:39am Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/28/06 10:41am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Hiatus
	Yes, loading up gunships meant that he was leaving. But he wasn't leaving the planet. Did you even watch ROTS? Mace blatantly stated that he was only leaving to assure that the Chancellor gave up his emergency powers. Then Anakin said something like "He won't give up his powers. He's the Sith we've been looking for" and so on. Please, refer to that scene in the film. Mace was not Dooku's master. He could not know Dooku's style very well, at least not confidently. Mace knew Dooku when said Sith was a Jedi. Dooku's style could logically have evolved, but they didn't know that it was the same as always. And Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't know Dooku as a Jedi, and thus they couldn't have informed the Council that it had changed. As for Yoda, he loved Dooku still, and would probably have kept the information in the hope that he could take care of him. The orbital scan was all but impossible; again, time was of the essence. The Council hardly reached the arena in time to stop the untimely deaths of Kenobi and Skywalker. An orbital scan would have consumed unnecessary time. They couldn't afford this. The leaving out of sources: you informed me that I had to take all sources into account. I was saying that I have, and challenged you to show me sources that I didn't utilise. -----signature----- "But it was so artistically done..." --Grand Admiral Thrawn "The Republic will be reorganised into the first Galactic Empire--for a safe, and secure, society!" --Emperor Palpatine, ROTS "I'm no Jedi. I'm just a guy with a lightsaber and a few questions."
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Robal_Krahl Registered: Dec '03	Date Posted: 5/28/06 12:19pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!!
	Yes, loading up gunships meant that he was leaving. But he wasn't leaving the planet. Did you even watch ROTS? Mace blatantly stated that he was only leaving to assure that the Chancellor gave up his emergency powers. Then Anakin said something like "He won't give up his powers. He's the Sith we've been looking for" and so on. Please, refer to that scene in the film. Indeed, I did watch it. How many gunships were there? More than three. That is overkill to simply remove a Chancellor from office; and we all know that Jedi fall far short of overkill when they do things. Removing the Chancellor was not the single goal Mace was not Dooku's master. He could not know Dooku's style very well, at least not confidently. Mace knew Dooku when said Sith was a Jedi. Dooku's style could logically have evolved, but they didn't know that it was the same as always. And Obi-Wan and Anakin didn't know Dooku as a Jedi, and thus they couldn't have informed the Council that it had changed. As for Yoda, he loved Dooku still, and would probably have kept the information in the hope that he could take care of him. Which should have been reason enough to send Mace, had he truly been Dooku's equal. Evolved or no, the logical, intelligent thing to do would have been to send the next one in line who knew Dooku's style. The orbital scan was all but impossible; again, time was of the essence. The Council hardly reached the arena in time to stop the untimely deaths of Kenobi and Skywalker. An orbital scan would have consumed unnecessary time. They couldn't afford this. To put it bluntly, no. The Jedi had time to 1.) infiltrate the arena, 2.) situate themselves among the bleachers and balconies, and 3.)take their sweet time to actually enter the arena. An orbital scan would have taken very few minutes, which would have been more than made up for if they had taken their starfighters straight to the arena. The Geonosians had nothing powerful enough to puncture a ship's hull in that arena. The Jedi were arrogant in thinking a frontal assault would be the best way. Plain and simple. The leaving out of sources: you informed me that I had to take all sources into account. I was saying that I have, and challenged you to show me sources that I didn't utilise. Oh, I see. You misunderstood me; I was stating that the EU is a source; just because one doesnt like it doesnt mean it doesnt count. That was my point; I wasnt insinuating that you left out a source. My apologies for the misunderstanding. -----signature----- Dark Lord of the DLC You're no daisy... you're no daisy at all.
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Darth-Vassago Registered: Jun '04	Date Posted: 5/28/06 12:27pm Subject: RE: The Official Count Dooku/Lord Tyranus Fanclub!! - Date Edited: 5/28/06 12:28pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth-Vassago
	I don't think I need to go back and read Dark Rendezvous; I've read it more than once. Perhaps you should go back and read the points I put forth? Maybe that would give you some idea of how overrated Mace was, and how underrated Dooku was. I'm not saying Mace would lose because I like Dooku better; I like Mace just fine, but I do believe he's overrated to an obscene point. I'm not so blind to say that "Dooku could take on anyone, and come out the victor without breaking a sweat!" Please, attempt to give me some credit here. I've outshined your knowledge on more than one front, and you're just spouting off your point of view of things. Me? I'm using logic, my friend. I'll bring out another point that...maybe you missed? Dooku, when in the Jedi Order, defeated all opponents in sparring. The only one he did not defeat, for obvious reasons, was Yoda. This means he beat Mace, when Dooku was but a Jedi. Why would he fall short now, when he has more power and more knowledge over Windu? Simply put, he wouldn't. Unless you want to underestimate Dooku like the gross population of Star Wars fans. Please, if all you're going to do is argue that one character is superior to Dooku, in a Dooku fanclub, kindly see your way out. Take this up in the Mace fanclub. If there isn't one; start one. I simply loathe people who come into other fan threads only to challenge and tear down the character who is the topic of the thread. So as I said, if you have no will to see reason or logic, then see your way out. ~Vassago -----signature----- "Even if you kill me, the fighting and death will continue. Of course...you won't kill me. Not today..."
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