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Author	Topic: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
arbed Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 7/30/07 1:16pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	Glad I found the new thread. As regards to Obi-Wan and Anakin in the above mentioned AotC scene - I won't get into any bashing of character behavior there. I think we all know what was going down. -----signature----- "HELLO, THERE!" 24 fan, Trekker, and Cheesehead "Remember, the Force will be with you....always" - Obi-Wan Kenobi ANH
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Master_Starwalker Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 7/30/07 1:52pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	I think it may be that Anakin expected Obi-Wan to be what he saw Qui-Gon as(though he likely idealized him since he barely knew him before he died.) However, I think it was mostly Anakin's hormones/love for Padme causing him to act like he was in charge of the situation and make promises that he had no way of keeping. That said, I don't know that Qui-Gon would have permitted Anakin's behavior either given how stern he was with Obi-Wan when he said that he felt Anakin was dangerous. Qui-Gon may have been less public about it however I suppose. -----signature----- "The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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iLoveAnakin7 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 7/30/07 3:24pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	Glad you found us Deb My opinion on Rachel's question: I don't think Anakin expected Obi-Wan to be like Qui-Gon. I don't think he expected him to be anyone but him, which was maybe a problem for Anakin. Obi-Wan was raised from an early age following the Code, so it's easy for him to put his personal feelings aside (as he should) and do what they were ordered by the Council to do. Then you have Anakin, well he's been told he needs to do the same, and follow the same protocol. But it's not ingrained in him, and as we can see, he goes off on a tangent and says what he personally thinks would be the best thing to do in the sitaution, rather than follow the Jedi way. Do I make any sense? LOL. I think Qui-Gon ultimately was somewhere in between these two, which is why he got along so well with both of them. Let's face it, Anakin and Obi-Wan are polar opposites when it comes down to how things need to be handled, but, the beauty of it is, that we see later on how much they do indeed rub off on each other, and that in turn shapes their last days as Jedi. I hope I answered your question nicely. Likewise, I was watching TPM last night for the first time in MONTHS. Many Months. It's always nice to take a long break, and then re-watch how everything went down. It just gets more tragic each time though. Usually when I go back, I like to look at little things, like facial expressions they might have passed each other in the early days. Sometimes, that can be a lot more telling than dialouge. Enough of my rambling...here is the first pic that I could come up with for possible disccusion. One of my favorite scenes tee hee DISCUSS!!!! -----signature----- Obama/Biden '08
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arbed Registered: Feb '04	Date Posted: 7/30/07 6:21pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	I always wondered - what's with all the flinging around with the sabers, guys? Tee hee. I also love that scene just for the pure insanity of it. Ha. -----signature----- "HELLO, THERE!" 24 fan, Trekker, and Cheesehead "Remember, the Force will be with you....always" - Obi-Wan Kenobi ANH
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ShrunkenJedi Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 7/30/07 6:29pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	Heh, yeah, with that scene in AOTC Anakin was definitely overstepping his authority it seemed (although with certain reason, as well as, yes, hormones encouraging him to give Padme everything he could), but Obi-Wan should've at least listened to him. Of course, if he has a history of overstepping the boundaries and Obi-Wan has no time to waste catering to Anakin's personal involvement but instead needs to immediately remind him that he cannot let his emotions get in the way of doing exactly what the council and his master need him to... well, you get the idea. It's complicated, certainly. -----signature----- Fanficcer and Fanartist-- check the profile! My New Drabbles and Viggies: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28153417/
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BattousaiCV Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 7/30/07 8:55pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	iLoveAnakin7 posted: Enough of my rambling...here is the first pic that I could come up with for possible disccusion. One of my favorite scenes tee hee DISCUSS!!!! It's probably been posted already but - http://aniwanrave2.ytmnd.com/ As to why the twirling was done (aside from that it looked cool and just because they COULD), maybe taunting? -----signature----- http://www.myspace.com/professorwashu http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BattousaiCV
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Master_Starwalker Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 7/30/07 11:24pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	As far as Anakin and Obi-Wan I do agree with what Dee said about how Anakin always ends up saying what he personally thinks, whereas Obi-Wan operates more as a representative of the Jedi Order and as such at times holds his tongue when Anakin wouldn't. I love the pointless twirling in that part. What I find most interesting is that that picture and the push that comes just after what the picture shows is that it really doesn't make Vader look like he's far above Kenobi's power as he should be. BattousaiCV posted: iLoveAnakin7 posted: Enough of my rambling...here is the first pic that I could come up with for possible disccusion. One of my favorite scenes tee hee DISCUSS!!!! It's probably been posted already but - http://aniwanrave2.ytmnd.com/ As to why the twirling was done (aside from that it looked cool and just because they COULD), maybe taunting? I love that ytmnd, and yeah I suppose it could a taunt. I thought it was also supposed to be a way to build up speed and momentum, but that really doesn't make much sense for a lightsaber given that they're weightless. -----signature----- "The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Alley_Skywalker Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/31/07 4:39am Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0 - Date Edited: 7/31/07 4:40am (1 edits total) Edited By: Alley_Skywalker
	I'm watching AOTC and something occured to me when Anakin and Obi-wan were having their little fight about the mission of protecting Padme in the prescence of Padme. I believe that Anakin always expected Obi-wan to be more like Qui-gon in a sense. Ya know, like a padawan should be in some shadow of his master. I think Anakin was sorta expecting Obi-wan to be more against the Council in some aspects, but we all know Obi-wan can sometimes be a stiff. Does anyone else feel this way or am I the odd one out? Well, I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t think Ani necessarily thought that Obi-Wan would be like Qui, I mean Ani had known bim for long enough to know that that's just NOT happening. But, I guess maybe he did kind of hope that Obi would be more sensitive ala Qui-Gon. (And, as a side note, I think Qui-Gon would have listened to Anakin, or even more likely would have held investigation as an option even w/o Ani's comment.) I do think that Anakin shouldn't have publicly contradicted Obi-Wan. I don't blame him for his eagerness to help of his more liberal way of thinking but contradicting his master in public probably wasn't a very good idea. But then, Obi-Wan, as the master and the example-setter as well as, supposedly, the more mature and level-headed one, should not have answered in kind: humiliating Anakin in front of Padme like that. A stern look and a "we will discuss this later" would have done the job. As to why the twirling was done (aside from that it looked cool and just because they COULD), maybe taunting? You know, I never thought about it, as in why they did that, but ye taunting could be a reasonable explanation. I thought it was also supposed to be a way to build up speed and momentum, but that really doesn't make much sense for a lightsaber given that they're weightless. Well, actually, the hilts aren't weightless Also they would be building up speed in a way. As for momentum...well I suppose maybe not momentum for the blades themselves but for the wielders. Then when they clashed blades they would have more momentum and could push down on their opponents blade with more power. What I personally love about that moment is how perfectly in synch they are. On some documentary I think it was, (I donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t remember if GL of Nick said this) it was said that after the first few moments of the duel all the flashy moves were over and they were really choreographing it in a way so it would really be like "fighting yourself. They are so evenly matched that sometimes they just canÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t get through." And it makes sense. I mean they probably know each otherÃ¢â‚¬â„¢s way of thinking/fighting by heart by that time. -----signature----- Knight of the Fanfic Order (trained by oqidaun) Master to CodyMonKenobi & mujapple-juicey Facades: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/24152038/p1 "No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love." -- Rita Brown
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iLoveAnakin7 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 7/31/07 7:39am Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0 - Date Edited: 7/31/07 7:43am (3 edits total) Edited By: iLoveAnakin7
	Nice to meet you BattousaiCV. thanks for that rave LOL, I love that. Does look like they are dancing, eh? As to why the twirling was done (aside from that it looked cool and just because they COULD), maybe taunting? Yes, it did look cool tee hee, but I think it was done from a cinematic POV to show how in tune to each other's moves they are, and done from an Anakin/Obi-Wan POV to, IDK, size each other up. While they are twirling they are probably both thinking, "Come on make your move, blah blah blah." I guess after 1000+ hours of sparring they are bound to be playing the same tune. As far as Anakin and Obi-Wan I do agree with what Dee said about how Anakin always ends up saying what he personally thinks, whereas Obi-Wan operates more as a representative of the Jedi Order and as such at times holds his tongue when Anakin wouldn't. Yup, and that's why they often clash in canon. I'm sure Obi-Wan cannot understand why Anakin cannot hold his tongue, probably because he's never had those feelings as strongly as Anakin to just speak your mind and say to hell with the code, but I'm sure as time went along the urge might have become stronger, especially after being around someone like that for 13-14 years. Likewise, Anakin cannot understand why Obi-Wan doesn't use his feelings more often, or at least he might understand the basics of that, but is often frustrated, and then he runs to Palpatine who more often than not assures him he was right, so Anakin never really learns at all. (This is why i do not view Obi-Wan as a bad teacher. He couldn't possibly stand a chance with Palps on the sidelines feeding Anakin's ego day and night). (And, as a side note, I think Qui-Gon would have listened to Anakin, or even more likely would have held investigation as an option even w/o Ani's comment.) Alley, let me say that I love that you are here because we often have opposing views, and that keeps up the debate! I have to disagree and say that Qui-Gon would have been like Obi-Wan in this situation. Maybe even more severe. We have to take into account Qui-Gon the man, and Qui-Gon the Jedi. We seem him as fatherly and nurturing to Anakin in episode one because he thinks Anakin is the Chosen One, and Anakin has gone to great lengths to help them in their time of need. He pretty much dotes on Anakin like a son here, even in the more traditional sense of the word than Obi-Wan. (Is it any wonder that Obi-Wan might feel a little slighted like an older brother?). But....if Qui-Gon had lived and taken Anakin on as his apprentice, I highly doubt Qui-Gon would be letting him spout of the way he was to Obi-Wan. While I do not think Qui-Gon a strict heartless man, he takes his duties seriously as a teacher and mentor, and IMO, there's no way Anakin would get the lee-way he does with Obi-Wan. I think, Anakin being his first student, Obi-Wan actually goes easier on him than he should. If we look at the entire PT in context, Obi-Wan really turns a blind eye to a lot of Anakin's rule breaking, whereas I think Qui-Gon would have put his foot down. Overall, Obi-Wan was too attached to Anakin by the end. -----signature----- Obama/Biden '08
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roguegirl Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/31/07 7:41am Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	All I can say is that Anakin was in love and it was messing with his judgement.Obiwan had been reckless before(Melida/Daan) and he promised himself that he'll do anything to be the best jedi,if not the best at least he'll win back QuiGon's trust.So you can excuse Obiwan's being somewhat stiff.Makes sense? Boy! I love how they twirl the sabers.they're so good. -----signature----- You can't win,but there are alternatives to fighting--Obiwan Kenobi(ANH) You do not want to sell me your deathsticks;You want to go home and rethink your life---Obiwan Kenobi(AOTC) The Force has a strong influence on the weakminded-Obiwan Kenobi(ANH)
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Alley_Skywalker Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/31/07 1:33pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0 - Date Edited: 7/31/07 1:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Alley_Skywalker
	(This is why i do not view Obi-Wan as a bad teacher. You may be surprised, Dee, but I don't think Obi-Wan was a bad teacher ar all. Have you read my vig As A Friend? I have to disagree and say that Qui-Gon would have been like Obi-Wan in this situation. Maybe even more severe. Well I suppos that is your opinion and I will respect it but even if Qui-Gon would have told Anakin off he would have had more consideration and tact to NOT do it in public ESPECIALLY in fron of the girl he KNOWS Anakin likes. We have to take into account Qui-Gon the man, and Qui-Gon the Jedi. And, honestly, I think Qui does a much better job than Obi in combining the two. We seem him as fatherly and nurturing to Anakin in episode one because he thinks Anakin is the Chosen One, I'm sure that having Anakin be the CO had a part in Qui-Gon's initial high interest. BUT even before Qui knew of Ani's high midichlorian count he was very nice to him unlike Kenobi who did what? Called him a "pathetic lifeform" before even MEETING him. Also, yes, Qui might have been father-like to Ani and as any father he would have used disciplinary measures on Ani when need be. But at least there would have been two sides to the picture. Obi-Wan, it seems often times, was almost all discipline (and in TPM even worse -- disdain). (W/ the possible exception of ROTS where he finally relaxes. Somthing truelly amazing came out of those CWs I tell you.) and Anakin has gone to great lengths to help them in their time of need. You are making it sound like Qui was being nice to Ani just b/c he felt that he[Qui] owed him[Ani] that. And I highly doubt that. But....if Qui-Gon had lived and taken Anakin on as his apprentice, I highly doubt Qui-Gon would be letting him spout of the way he was to Obi-Wan. I really don't see Anakin "spouting off" to Obi-Wan THAT MUCH. In the apartment, yes, and I already agreed that Anakin should not have done that. But it is a teenage thing. I think that any disciplinary work Qui would have done would have been in PRIVATE. While I do not think Qui-Gon a strict heartless man, he takes his duties seriously as a teacher and mentor, and IMO, there's no way Anakin would get the lee-way he does with Obi-Wan. He does take his duties seriously, I never said he did not. BUT remember that Qui was the rebel. His way of thinking would not be as dogmatic as Obi-Wan's. And I really donÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t see how Anakin supposedly got so much Ã¢â‚¬Å“lee-wayÃ¢â‚¬Â with Obi-Wan. Kenobi is not the type to allow much lee-way, I don't think. I think, Anakin being his first student, Obi-Wan actually goes easier on him than he should. How does he go so easy on him, Dee? I never understood that. If we look at the entire PT in context, Obi-Wan really turns a blind eye to a lot of Anakin's rule breaking, Like what? What does Anakin do wrong that doesn't get reprimanded? whereas I think Qui-Gon would have put his foot down. I think that in most cases any foot-putting-down that Qui would have done would have been in an overall more, ah, how to say this, gentle, no, understanding and compassionate seems more like it, way. Overall, Obi-Wan was too attached to Anakin by the end. I am not arguing that he did not end up attached to Anakin more or less. Remember, I DO love these two together, despite my harsh criticism. -----signature----- Knight of the Fanfic Order (trained by oqidaun) Master to CodyMonKenobi & mujapple-juicey Facades: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/24152038/p1 "No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love." -- Rita Brown
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Master_Starwalker Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 7/31/07 1:53pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	(And, as a side note, I think Qui-Gon would have listened to Anakin, or even more likely would have held investigation as an option even w/o Ani's comment.) I agree, since I don't think Qui-Gon would have had the slightest problem going beyond the Council's mandate. He would simply do what he felt was necessary and if the Council didn't agree, so be it. But then, Obi-Wan, as the master and the example-setter as well as, supposedly, the more mature and level-headed one, should not have answered in kind: humiliating Anakin in front of Padme like that My guess is Obi-Wan usually would have done that, but that the two of them had gotten into that exact argument so many times that he just is sick of it and trying to put an end to it. Well, actually, the hilts aren't weightless Also they would be building up speed in a way. As for momentum...well I suppose maybe not momentum for the blades themselves but for the wielders. Then when they clashed blades they would have more momentum and could push down on their opponents blade with more power. That would make more sense than I thought I suppose. I have to disagree and say that Qui-Gon would have been like Obi-Wan in this situation. Maybe even more severe. We have to take into account Qui-Gon the man, and Qui-Gon the Jedi. We seem him as fatherly and nurturing to Anakin in episode one because he thinks Anakin is the Chosen One, and Anakin has gone to great lengths to help them in their time of need. He pretty much dotes on Anakin like a son here, even in the more traditional sense of the word than Obi-Wan. (Is it any wonder that Obi-Wan might feel a little slighted like an older brother?). But....if Qui-Gon had lived and taken Anakin on as his apprentice, I highly doubt Qui-Gon would be letting him spout of the way he was to Obi-Wan. While I do not think Qui-Gon a strict heartless man, he takes his duties seriously as a teacher and mentor, and IMO, there's no way Anakin would get the lee-way he does with Obi-Wan. I think, Anakin being his first student, Obi-Wan actually goes easier on him than he should. If we look at the entire PT in context, Obi-Wan really turns a blind eye to a lot of Anakin's rule breaking, whereas I think Qui-Gon would have put his foot down. Overall, Obi-Wan was too attached to Anakin by the end. I agree, and while that seems to contradict my earlier statement I want to clarify why in my opinion it doesn't. I think Qui-Gon would be more willing to do an investigation into whoever it was that tried to kill Padme, but I don't think he would because Anakin said it, I think Qui-Gon simply would have already thought of doing one and so Anakin's outburst may have not happened as they'd reach the same conclusion albeit for incredibly different reasons. Qui-Gon would be doing it because he'd likely think that investigating the circumstances to find out who was really behind it would be the best way to stop the assassin whereas Anakin would do it because he wanted to impress Padme. And, honestly, I think Qui does a much better job than Obi in combining the two. I don't think there's that distinction in Obi-Wan. I hadn't thought of it in Qui-Gon, but Obi-Wan I think lives and breathes for the Jedi Order and the Force. -----signature----- "The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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Alley_Skywalker Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 7/31/07 2:23pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	I agree, and while that seems to contradict my earlier statement I want to clarify why in my opinion it doesn't. I think Qui-Gon would be more willing to do an investigation into whoever it was that tried to kill Padme, but I don't think he would because Anakin said it, I think Qui-Gon simply would have already thought of doing one and so Anakin's outburst may have not happened as they'd reach the same conclusion albeit for incredibly different reasons. Qui-Gon would be doing it because he'd likely think that investigating the circumstances to find out who was really behind it would be the best way to stop the assassin whereas Anakin would do it because he wanted to impress Padme. Oh I already said/agreed with that, though it might not be clear, in my former statement. However, I must mention that I don't think Ani's desire for an investigation was simply a means to show off. I think he also thought it was a more affective way of protecting Padme. He even tells Obi-Wan that. I don't think there's that distinction in Obi-Wan. I hadn't thought of it in Qui-Gon, but Obi-Wan I think lives and breathes for the Jedi Order and the Force. Actually, I agree w/ you. That was a miss-phrasing on my part. -----signature----- Knight of the Fanfic Order (trained by oqidaun) Master to CodyMonKenobi & mujapple-juicey Facades: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/24152038/p1 "No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love." -- Rita Brown
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Master_Starwalker Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 7/31/07 2:29pm Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
	Oh I already said/agreed with that, though it might not be clear, in my former statement. However, I must mention that I don't think Ani's desire for an investigation was simply a means to show off. I think he also thought it was a more affective way of protecting Padme. He even tells Obi-Wan that. Anakin says it's not simply to show off, but I think that's a large part of it. It may partially have been his desire to keep her safe, but I think that largely goes back to her feelings for her. -----signature----- "The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
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iLoveAnakin7 Registered: Apr '05	Date Posted: 8/1/07 6:32am Subject: RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0 - Date Edited: 8/1/07 6:36am (4 edits total) Edited By: iLoveAnakin7
	A lot to read through here LOL. I'll do my best I'm sure that having Anakin be the CO had a part in Qui-Gon's initial high interest. BUT even before Qui knew of Ani's high midichlorian count he was very nice to him unlike Kenobi who did what? Called him a "pathetic lifeform" before even MEETING him. Well I do agree with you that Qui-Gon liked Anakin a lot before he thought him to be special to the galaxy. As for what Obi-Wan called him, if you look at his face, you can tell he is joking, and probably thinks Anakin is like Jar-Jar: It's great that he helped them, but in the greater scheme of the current mission at hand (which had nothing to do with Anakin overall), Anakin was a waste of time...I know that sounds bad, and I don't mean to imply that Anakin was indeed a waste of time (obviously he wasn't ), but at that point in time, no one could have predicted just how important he was. Obi-Wan, it seems often times, was almost all discipline (and in TPM even worse -- disdain). (W/ the possible exception of ROTS where he finally relaxes. Somthing truelly amazing came out of those CWs I tell you.) True, (although I'm not picking up disdain or hate from Obi-Wan to Anakin at all, rather mere annoyance at best) but I think there's two sides to the coin here. If Anakin hadn't often disobeyed, Obi-Wan wouldn't need to break out the discipline so much . There's actually a point during the CW in which you can see Obi-Wan really just lets Anakin get away with a lot and starts to trust his instincts. And to me, this is really apparent in RotS. You are making it sound like Qui was being nice to Ani just b/c he felt that he[Qui] owed him[Ani] that. And I highly doubt that. Sorry if it sounded like that, but that's not what I meant. I know Qui-Gon genuinely cared about Anakin, but his extra special interest in him and getting him trained did stem from the fact that he knew Anakin was special - very special. How does he go so easy on him, Dee? I never understood that. I think Obi-Wan (especially during the CW and RotS) ignores a lot of the warning signs that Anakin is slipping. Especially concerning his relationship with Padme. Obi-Wan is really turning a blind eye, as I suspect he knows. As his master, he really should have turned him in to the Council, but he didn't. He wanted Anakin to be happy, or to at least see the good in Anakin and believe that Anakin could handle the attachments. That is what we call blind love, and we all do it at some point. What does Anakin do wrong that doesn't get reprimanded? See above LOL! And then there's just technical things. Anakin often seems like he leads Obi-Wan around or goes off the mandate during the CW years, and after a point Obi-Wan gives in seeing that there is no point in fighting it, and that Anakin actually has good ideas. I think that in most cases any foot-putting-down that Qui would have done would have been in an overall more, ah, how to say this, gentle, no, understanding and compassionate seems more like it, way. Maybe, but we can never know. When I watch how he was with Obi-Wan, when Obi crossed the line in TPM, Qui-Gon was quite stern. Not harsh, but stern, and Obi-Wan backed off. Anakin is different than Obi-Wan as we have seen, I'm not sure just being stern with Anakin would have worked. In fact, since Qui-Gon believed 100% that Anakin was the CO, he might have expected a LOT more than Obi-Wan ever did. But this is a hard point to speculate on. Remember, I DO love these two together, despite my harsh criticism. Of course -----signature----- Obama/Biden '08
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