| Author |
Topic:
A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
7/7 6:23pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/7 6:27pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
|
Icestar63 posted:
I am not trying to be fanboy  , but in terms of lightsaber skills alone I would say Obi-wan would win because he had full training with the saber but Luke did not; at least in the movies, Of course this is my opinion.
You are not being a fanboy. You are just telling the truth.
Luke was half trained in the movies. Obi Wan was not. Even Luke's father was fully trained, and he defeated one of the best swordsman in the galaxy in Dooku. Anakin owned Ventress, twice, and Ventress cut down a few Jedi Knights herself. I believe she injured Kit Fisto at one poitn.
ROTJ Luke never would've beaten Dooku. Dooku would've cut ROTJ Luke down so fast, its not even funny. Luke was just not ready to take on someone as powerful as Palpatine or even Dooku at that point in his life. I don't think he would've beaten Maul at that point in his life, and Obi Wan beat Maul when he was a Padawan Learner.
NJO-era Luke on the other hand, is a totally different story. NJO-era Luke is definately on par with Yoda as the best swordsman and skilled in the force. NJO-Luke would definately own anyone in the Old Jedi Order.
-----signature-----
We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
iLoveAnakin7
Registered:
Apr '05
|
Date Posted:
7/7 6:57pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/7 6:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
iLoveAnakin7
|
IMO, RotJ Luke could not even handle TPM Obi-Wan, if you really want to break it down.
As you said, Obi-Wan had been classically trained in the Jedi arts, and even during the time of TPM, he was much more skilled with a lightsaber and the Force than Luke was throughout the entire OT.
With the right training though over a longer period of time, Luke could have surpassed Anakin in power--because Anakin failed to live up to his potential.
-----signature-----
Obama/Biden '08
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
7/7 7:09pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
I agree with GS335 and iLoveAnakin7.
-----signature-----
Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Alley_Skywalker
Registered:
Sep '05
|
Date Posted:
7/8 5:55am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
Do you think ROTJ Luke would beat Rots Obi Wan? I say heck no, because Luke did not have nearly as much training as Obi Wan did, despite Luke's force potential being far greater than that of Obi Wan's. IMO, Obi Wan would defeat ROTJ Luke much easier than he did Rots Anakin, due to Luke's lack of training.
I would totally agree with that!
As for the rest of your reasoning I agree with that too (as for as Luke vs Obi and Ani/Vader is concerned). Luke’s very limited training is the reason why I have such a hard time finding the NJO books realistic…
I don't think he would've beaten Maul at that point in his life, and Obi Wan beat Maul when he was a Padawan Learner.
I can actually see Luke taking on Maul as I don’t think ROTJ Vader was weaker than Maul. Though I think Vader’s problem stems from his somewhat limited mobility. So I guess this one’s up in the air.
NJO-era Luke on the other hand, is a totally different story. NJO-era Luke is definately on par with Yoda as the best swordsman and skilled in the force. NJO-Luke would definately own anyone in the Old Jedi Order.
Eh…that’s all EU and speculation and stuff. Besides, who would TRAIN Luke after ROTJ? So with no one to train him I don’t think Luke would have gotten as far in the Force/saber skills as the EU fancies.
With the right training though over a longer period of time, Luke could have surpassed Anakin in power--because Anakin failed to live up to his potential
Supposing that Yoda had lived to train Luke after ROTJ Luke could surpass ROTS Anakin as Anakin, as powerful and skilled as he already was at the time or ROTS, hadn’t quite reached his peak yet at the time of his fall.
I have a feeling Forrest's gonna have something to say about all this, lol.
-----signature-----
Knight of the Fanfic Order (trained by oqidaun) Master to CodyMonKenobi & mujapple-juicey Facades: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/24152038/p1 "No government has the right to tell its citizens when or whom to love." -- Rita Brown
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
7/8 10:32am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
iLoveAnakin7- I keep forgetting to call you Dee, I am sorry about that.
To the Luke Vs. Obi-wan subject- I think Luke has a lot of potential, probably as much as Anakin or close, but Luke only received very little training so he is not as good as the Jedi of the old republic. I am not sure if he ever reached the same level as the Jedi of the old republic but he did have that potential not doubt. 
-----signature-----
Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
7/8 10:35am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/8 10:46am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
|
Alley_Skywalker posted:
Do you think ROTJ Luke would beat Rots Obi Wan? I say heck no, because Luke did not have nearly as much training as Obi Wan did, despite Luke's force potential being far greater than that of Obi Wan's. IMO, Obi Wan would defeat ROTJ Luke much easier than he did Rots Anakin, due to Luke's lack of training.
I would totally agree with that!
As for the rest of your reasoning I agree with that too (as for as Luke vs Obi and Ani/Vader is concerned). Luke’s very limited training is the reason why I have such a hard time finding the NJO books realistic…
I don't think he would've beaten Maul at that point in his life, and Obi Wan beat Maul when he was a Padawan Learner.
I can actually see Luke taking on Maul as I don’t think ROTJ Vader was weaker than Maul. Though I think Vader’s problem stems from his somewhat limited mobility. So I guess this one’s up in the air.
NJO-era Luke on the other hand, is a totally different story. NJO-era Luke is definately on par with Yoda as the best swordsman and skilled in the force. NJO-Luke would definately own anyone in the Old Jedi Order.
Eh…that’s all EU and speculation and stuff. Besides, who would TRAIN Luke after ROTJ? So with no one to train him I don’t think Luke would have gotten as far in the Force/saber skills as the EU fancies.
With the right training though over a longer period of time, Luke could have surpassed Anakin in power--because Anakin failed to live up to his potential
Supposing that Yoda had lived to train Luke after ROTJ Luke could surpass ROTS Anakin as Anakin, as powerful and skilled as he already was at the time or ROTS, hadn’t quite reached his peak yet at the time of his fall.
I have a feeling Forrest's gonna have something to say about all this, lol.
Luke, like his father, caught onto things very quickly. That's why Luke more than held his own against vader in the OT. The thing is, vader in the OT is far weaker than he was before the suit. That alone is what gives Luke the advantage. If vader was not in the suit, than Luke by the time of ROTJ would not stand a chance against him.
ROTJ Luke just did not have enough training to even be mentioned in the same breath as Yoda, Mace, Obi Wan, or even Rots Anakin.
Anakin did not reach his full potential, but he still had far more training in the Jedi Arts than ROTJ Luke did. That's why Anakin, as a Padawan, was already better (at least in terms of lightsaber skills) than the other Padawans by AOTC and maybe even better than some Knights, and why he (now as a Jedi Knight) was twice as powerful by Rots. When he defeated Dooku in Rots, Anakin was one of the best swordsman in the galaxy. He was on par with Obi Wan (both Kenobi and Skywalker were level 8s in episode III), and was a step behind Yoda and Mace, who were level 9s. Palpatine was a level 9. Anakin had just scratched the surface by Rots but him going to the darkside ruined that. Anakin was suppose to be a freak of nature of sorts, in terms of skill. If Anakin did not fall to the darkside, than its possible that he eventually would've reached a level 10, especially since his force potenial was greater than anyone else in the galaxy. Mind you, he was already a level 8 by the time of Rots (with his training in the Jedi Arts as well as experiences from the war), and it took Obi Wan many years to get there.
I believe NJO-era Luke is a level 10, because he has the same force potential as his father and is apart of the Skywalker bloodline. He's had many years to master his skills whereas in ROTJ, he had limited training. I believe ROTJ Luke is either a level 5 or 6, but I'm not sure. NJO-era Luke is basically what his father would've been, had he never became vader and got stuck in the suit.
Though no one is training him, Luke did learn about lightsaber techniques from his research and from his own travels. Forms III-V were referenced in Kenobi's journals. However, many of the lightsaber techniques were lost in the purge, which is why new lightsaber techniques had to be created (hence, the slow, medium, and strong style techniques that's used in the NJO, which is a combination of the old Forms III-V styles). Mind you, it took Luke many years to reach his potential. He was no where close to being at that level in ROTJ. He was half trained but its different in NJO, which is about 25-30 years after ROTJ.
-----signature-----
We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
7/8 10:52am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/8 10:56am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
GS335
|
Icestar63 posted:
iLoveAnakin7- I keep forgetting to call you Dee, I am sorry about that.
To the Luke Vs. Obi-wan subject- I think Luke has a lot of potential, probably as much as Anakin or close, but Luke only received very little training so he is not as good as the Jedi of the old republic. I am not sure if he ever reached the same level as the Jedi of the old republic but he did have that potential not doubt.
ROTJ Luke is no where near the level of the really skilled Jedi in the Old Republic, including his father (pre-suit). However, I think that NJO-era Luke is better than anyone else in the old Jedi Order.
By the NJO era, Luke has had time to master his skills in the force. He also had to recreate lightsaber techniques, since many were lost in the purge. The NJO-era is about 25-30 years after ROTJ. ROTJ Luke was not at the level of the really good Jedi in the old Republic, yet. He didn't have time to master his own skills during that time. Luke was only in his twenties, with limited training. The level he's at in the NJO (more than likely, a level 10) is what he had to do on his own, from his own experiences.
It would've been interesting to see Obi Wan actually train Luke in the Form III style, or see an uncorrupted Anakin train Luke in the Form V style. Since Obi Wan and Anakin were masters of their own respective styles, I think Luke would've benefited from their training. Its possible Luke might've been even better (which is scarry, since Luke is a freak of nature by the time of the NJO), if he recieved formal Jedi training.
I also think Luke would've been even more of a deadly fighter if he learned Form II (Dooku's style), Form IV (Yoda's and Qui Gon's preferred style), or Form VII (Windu's style)
-----signature-----
We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
GS335
Registered:
Feb '01
|
Date Posted:
7/8 11:05am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
Icestar63 posted:
iLoveAnakin7- I keep forgetting to call you Dee, I am sorry about that.
To the Luke Vs. Obi-wan subject- I think Luke has a lot of potential, probably as much as Anakin or close, but Luke only received very little training so he is not as good as the Jedi of the old republic. I am not sure if he ever reached the same level as the Jedi of the old republic but he did have that potential not doubt.
I can agree with this.
Besides, it would've been interesting to see Obi Wan face off against Kyp Durron from the NJO. Kyp has talked smack about Obi Wan in the past, basically hinting that he thinks Obi Wan is soft. That passage really pissed me off, because we all know that Obi Wan is far from being soft. He flat out beat Maul in a lightsaber duel and barely beat Anakin in a long, drawn out lightsaber duel.
I bet that Obi Wan has far more training in the Jedi Arts than a twirp like Kyp has ever had. I would love to see Obi Wan shut Kyp up by dominating that loser in a lightsaber duel.
-----signature-----
We can do ALL things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens us!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
anakin_luver
Registered:
Jul '05
|
Date Posted:
7/8 5:08pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
hi guys! thanks for the welcome. i'm glad i can be back here 
i just skimmed through the rest of the posts and i pretty much agree with the general idea. i DEFINITELY don't think Luke could beat Obi or Anakin in ROTS...i actually think he would get demolished in about 2 minutes (just my personal opinion though ). and yah i'm gonna watch my back for when Forrest gets here
i haven't looked at any spoilers for the movie...i've just seen the trailer. i'm not that excited yet...i have no idea why...maybe its becuase animated SW is just not good enough for me anymore and i just want more REAL PEOPLE MOVIES lol
yah Kim, i was pretty much spoiler free for ROTS too...but i remember when the commercials use to come on and i would get goosebumps and it got me so reeled up and stoked for the real thing
-----signature-----
PRISON BREAK  mrs. s <scofield> <sparrow> <skywalker> COME ON CANADA! YOU CAN DO IT!
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
7/10 9:52am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
It's good to see you again, crystal! 
I hope to see you here more often.
What topic should we discuss today? 
-----signature-----
Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
7/10 10:46am
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
anakin_luver posted:
hi everyone. long time no talk
i agree with you solojones when you say that you're very picky about what EU you read. i've only read about 4 or 5 books, but i honestly liked them all because i made sure that those that had already read them, liked them too.
haven't read the Jedi Apprentice series...but i've heard mixed views on it...that's something that also catches my interest.
nice to see you all. hopefully i can post here more often now
I think that's the better way to do it. As someone who used to read pretty much everything with the Star Wars label on it, I've been enjoying how not reading them has changed my interpretations on some aspects and given me the chance to step back and see parts of the EU politics from a more detached perspective.
arbed posted:
GS335, all I have to say is - You better watch out for MS (Master Starwalker)... 
*cue Jaws theme*
GS335 posted:
Have one question for you guys?
Do you think ROTJ Luke would beat Rots Obi Wan? I say heck no, because Luke did not have nearly as much training as Obi Wan did, despite Luke's force potential being far greater than that of Obi Wan's. IMO, Obi Wan would defeat ROTJ Luke much easier than he did Rots Anakin, due to Luke's lack of training.
I got into an argument with a friend of mine over this, who happens to be a major Luke fan. He said that Luke beat vader, and I told him that vader was a crippled cyborg in the OT, who was not nearly as moble or as powerful in the force as he was before the suit. So him having far more training is void at that point.
I love Luke, as he's one of my favorites. But even I have to admit that Luke is probably the weakest Jedi we've seen in the movies, despite his major force potential and him being Anakin's son. Luke had limited training and what good is power without training. Obi Wan had over 30 years of training and Luke's father had about 10-12 years formal training, whereas Luke had what, a few months? The vader he faced in the OT was far weaker than he was before the suit, and no where near as powerful as Obi Was in Rots, or pre-suite Anakin was in Rots.
Nick Gillard has said that Luke is going to be the weakest Jedi (skill-wise) we've seen in the movies and after seeing the PT, I have to agree with him, as painful as it is.
I hate to admit it, but ROTJ Luke would not beat either Rots Obi Wan or Rots Anakin (pre-suit). Anakin and Obi Wan have far more Jedi training than Luke has and knows lightsaber moves Luke would not have learned yet, as of ROTJ. Obi Wan or Anakin (pre-suit) would easily disarm Luke, as Luke is inexperienced. Not to mention, Anakin in Rots is far more powerful than he was in ROTJ for obvious reasons. Both are fully trained in the Jedi Arts, whereas Luke has limited training.
What do you guys think?
As has been said, I think Luke could handle RotS Obi-Wan. The RotJ novelization(for what it's worth) describes their battle in such a way that makes Luke seem like he's the most powerful opponent Vader has ever faced:
'If you will not turn to the Dark Side,
perhaps she will.'
This, then, was Luke's breaking point. For Leia was
everyone's last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his
twisted, misguided cravings on her ...
'Never!' he screamed. His lightsaber flew off Vader's belt
into his own hand, igniting as it came to him.
He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known.
Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks
flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was
soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was
pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke
pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his
head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He
stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area.
Luke pursued him relentlessly.
Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto
the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft
to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled
Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.
The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade
to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's
right hand off at the wrist.
I can see the argument that Dooku wouldn't be factored into that given that he didn't exist in the 80s when the novelization was written, but that same novelization does mention Obi-Wan defeating Vader
I would suggest that the narrative shows Luke to be one of the most powerful Jedi(though certainly not on the level of Mace or Yoda) with only technical limitations saying otherwise. Luke didn't have the formal training, but he had the instinctual skill to make up for it. As for the RotJ battle, it's worth remembering that Luke isn't trying for most of the battle. The only glimpse we see of Luke's true power is when he unleashes his anger and dominates his father.
As for the lack of training, Yoda addresses this when he tells Luke "No more training do you require. Already know that which you need."
Of course, I'm also not fully convinced that Vader is weaker than Anakin. He's certainly slower, but we've never see Anakin do something which was as impressive as Vader choking Ozzel from a long distance without even gesturing. The closest I could see to the "Vader was a weak cyborg" argument is that Anakin had raw power but Vader is more refined and has greater finesse. For what it's worth, Lucas has said that suited Vader is at 80% of the Emperor's power. He's also said that Luke represents what Anakin could have become if he hadn't become a cyborg(I do think the argument that Vader has lower possible ceiling of power than Anakin makes sense.)
Alley_Skywalker posted:
[color=red]Eh…that’s all EU and speculation and stuff. Besides, who would TRAIN Luke after ROTJ? So with no one to train him I don’t think Luke would have gotten as far in the Force/saber skills as the EU fancies.
I think the idea is that Luke's power jumps inbetween ESB and RotJ despite the fact that he doesn't get any training and so they simply assumed he could work on his skills himself.
-----signature-----
"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
7/10 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
I think when Yoda told Luke he did not need any more training he meant that he had enough skills to face Vader but that does not mean that his lightsaber skills are equal to the Jedi of the old republic because they had "full" training and they were not trained by very "old" Jedi. Vader's saber skills do not appear to be as good as before he was defeated by Obi-wan so the very little training Luke received from the Jedi masters would be enough to face Vader and the Emperor; IMO.
Of course I think Obi-wan and Yoda and Palpatine’s saber skills have gone down a bit over the years but their force powers improved a bit, IMO.
-----signature-----
Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
7/10 3:00pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/10 3:01pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master_Starwalker
|
I could see Obi-Wan being more technically skilled than Luke but that Luke's natural skill makes up for the difference.
Edit: I just don't see why Palpatine would keep Vader as his apprentice if he was so weak when he could find and train someone else.
-----signature-----
"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Icestar63
Registered:
Nov '05
|
Date Posted:
7/10 3:02pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
- Date Edited:
7/10 3:12pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Icestar63
|
I do think Luke became the most powerful Jedi after ROTJ, though.
Master_Starwalker posted:
Edit: I just don't see why Palpatine would keep Vader as his apprentice if he was so weak when he could find and train someone else.
Vader was not soo weak, he was still powerful, about 80% of the Emperor's force powers; but I don't think Palpatine had the time to train another person since he thought no one would be a threat to him.
-----signature-----
Hi, I come here in peace.
Why so serious?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Master_Starwalker
Registered:
Sep '03
|
Date Posted:
7/10 3:08pm
Subject:
RE: A Fateful Bond: The Anakin/Obi-Wan Brotherhood Fan Thread V 2.0
|
|
I thought that went without saying.
-----signature-----
"The ways of the Living Force are beyond our understanding... But fear not. You are in the hands of something much greater and much better than you can imagine." - Qui-Gon Jinn
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
