anakin_luver posted:Master_Starwalker posted:And if Luke requires no more training he has been fully trained. i actually haven't watched the OT in a while, but i just remembered a thought that went through my head during that one scene. i always got the feeling that even though Yoda said Luke didn't require anymore training, i don't think he meant it Jedi skills wise...i think he meant that he couldn't do anymore for Luke and that the only way Luke would beat his father is if he truly surrendered himself to the Force, and set his mind to it..yada yada. but that also proves that Luke didn't need as good Jedi skills as Vader to beat him...which says a lot about Luke's abilities.
Master_Starwalker posted:And if Luke requires no more training he has been fully trained.
GS335 posted:"Vader does things Anakin could only dream of in the Original Trilogy. Anakin is never shown to have mastery over telepathy or "the ability to choke people without gesturing. As for Ben, I'm still not sure he's as much weaker as most people suggest. You mentioned the forms earlier, and the description of the way a form 3 master would fight fits Ben's highly defensive style more than it does RotS Kenobi's acrobatic style. "....endqoute You are clearly confusing Episode I with Episode III. In episode I, Kenobi used Form IV, which deals more with acrobatics. In episode II, he begins to use Form III, which deals more with defense. By the time Episode III rolls along, Kenobi has mastered Form III. Form III is used to beat Grevious and beat vader.
GS335 posted:Oh and BTW, we didn't see Anakin use telepathy much, because the script and storyline didn't call for it. But if you watch the clone wars mini cartoons, we've seen Anakin use telepathy with ease, and show more agility than vader would've dreamed of.
GS335 posted:vader is weaker than Anakin because he lost his limbs, thats why. That's why a half trained Luke beat him. The Ben we see from ANH is an Obi Wan who's been out of practice for a long time. That is NOT an Obi Wan Kenobi in his prime. Rots is Obi Wan in his prime, and that guy would've schooled ROTJ Luke like it was no tomorrow.
GS335 posted:Again, don't underestimate Obi Wan. Luke has potential, but he's no where near his peak by the time of ROTJ. We've seen how far potential will get you with Anakin. Luke is no different.
GS335 posted:Again, Yoda said that because he knew vader was limited by the suit, didn't have much left in the tank, and wouldn't have the mobility to beat a younger opponent.
GS335 posted:vader was not as strong as he was, pre-suit. If you read 'Dark Lord, the rise of darth vader,' you would see how this is true. vader had to totally reinvent his fighting style, because of his limitations. vader was frustrated, because he couldn't react to things like he used to, because of those limitations. He would easily tire by straining himself, if he was fighting a strong oppoent or had to fight more than one Jedi. So yes, raw power would beat someone like vader who was limited.
GS335 posted:Read information on Dooku at the SW wiki. It will tell you that Dooku is on par with Mace in lightsaber skills. He and Yoda are the only two that's ever bested Mace in sparring. So yes, Dooku is THAT good. ROTJ Luke has never had to face anyone like that. His father on the other hand, did. He lost to him the first time and easily defeated him in the rematch. Facing Dooku who's highly skilled is far different than facing a guy who is in a support suit, who has no mobility, and who's far weaker than what he was, before.
GS335 posted:Just because Lucas says something you don't like, it doesn't mean its true. Lucas writes the story, not the fans. Lucas comes up with the concepts of the story, not the fans. Lucas is the creator of Star Wars, not the fans. If Lucas says something is true in regards to Star Wars, than its true. He created the story. This is something fans need to accept, and move on.
GS335 posted: I think the biggest flaw of any fanbase, is when they think they know more than the creator, when they didn't even write the story or create the characters. When it comes to Star Wars, what Lucas says is canon. He can do whatever he want, change whatever he wants when it comes to Star Wars. Its his story and HIS characters, so he has that right.
GS335 posted:So Luke being the weakest Jedi in terms of skill in the entire movie saga is true.
GS335 posted:But Luke is also fighting a sith who lost his limbs and who is limited because of a support suit. So that argument is nullified, my friend. Fighting a crippled vader is far different than fighting Dooku or Mace Windu who are highly skilled, and who are not limited by a support suit. Even as an older guy, Dooku was still kicking ass, and taking names. He showed plenty of agility fighting Yoda, which was a draw, BTW. There's no way RoTJ Luke does that. He's just not good enough, yet.
GS335 posted:vader losing his limbs is apart of the traegity that is, darth vader. Its a story about wasted potential, all because of vader's greed and massive ego. Anakin had everything. He was a level 8, which is unheard of for any Jedi so young. He was the hero of the Clone Wars, had a beautiful wife who loved him dearly, and was on his way to becoming the greatest living Jedi, ever. But the arrogant punk wanted more power. The guy had selfish attachments to his mother and to his wife and as a result, he got punked by his former master. The end result was him losing his limbs, needing a life support suit to just survive, and becoming Palpatine's lap dog. That's the traegity of darth vader.
GS335 posted:vader couldn't because he's not as strong in the force as before. He lost his abilities and raw power when he lost his limbs and got stuck in the suit. He's like a painter who's gone blind. pre-suit vader was stronger than Dooku. post-suit vader is a step below Dooku. That's why.
GS335 posted:Because Rots Anakin lost his limbs towards the end of the movie, what we saw of him in that movie (pre suit), sadly, is the best from him, skill wise. Level 8 was the highest Anakin went, because of his lost of limbs. Yes vader was calmer, but he was evil. Not to mention, he was not as strong as he was before. That's why he lost to a half trained Luke later on. That's why Old Ben said vader was a master of evil. He was not complementing vader. He was insulting the guy and telling the truth at the same time.
GS335 posted:But he is the creator of Star Wars and has creative control over the characters in the movies. He has the final say in everything. It is what it is.
GS335 posted:And his inability to generate force lighting is a direct result of him being weaker in the force. Having knowledge and being able to put the knowledge to use are two different things. vader's limitations made him a lost cause. There's a good reason why Palpatine was after Luke.
GS335 posted:Luke also fought a weakened vader who was limited by a suit. Far different than facing Jedi in their prime. Not to mention, Luke used the darkside. So again, that point is nullified.
GS335 posted:Lucas has said more than once that the PT is about Jedi in their prime. That is what we've seen with several characters, from Yoda, to Mace, to Obi Wan, to Anakin. It makes the OT even more sad, especially when we see how much was lost.
GS335 posted:Luke did not face any Jedi in their prime, so again, him beating vader is nullified since vader was just a shell of what he once was, or what he could've been if he never would've fell to the darkside of the force.
GS335 posted:But Luke is also fighting a sith who lost his limbs and who is limited because of a support suit. So that argument is nullified, my friend.
GS335 posted:Because Rots Anakin lost his limbs towards the end of the movie, what we saw of him in that movie (pre suit), sadly, is the best from him, skill wise. Level 8 was the highest Anakin went, because of his lost of limbs.
GS335 posted:The CW cartoons are canon. In any discussion, you have to use all aspects of the SW universe. In that cartoon, we had Anakin, as a Padawan Learner, use a powerful force push to knock Ventress (a highly skilled dark Jedi) through a concrete wall. The powerful display of Anakin's telekenesis blew the wall open. Not to mention, Anakin ran through Ventress' own force push. Anakin showed his superiority over Ventress in that fight. This is Anakin, as just a Padawan, before he became a Knight. We've never seen him do anything like that as vader. That was to show how strong he was at such a young age. He was way better than any Padawan in the order and was probably better than some Jedi Knights. When he became a Knight, he was even better. This is after several years of Jedi training and experience, something ROTJ Luke has not had, yet. Lucas did not show as much in the movies from any Jedi, because of budget constraints. So in the EU universe (aka cartoons), that worry is not there so the writers are free to show more impressive stuff.
GS335 posted:vader didn't want to fight Luke, either. Hence, the conflict that was shown from vader in the movie. Luke felt it.
GS335 posted:Yes Anakin used the darkside to defeat Tyranus, but its not like he was fighting a crippled cyborg who lost limbs, either. Dooku was still at his peak. Anakin just got better. And neither of them were swinging their lightsabers like wild men, either, much like what we saw in the vader/Luke fight in ROTJ. Anakin did display great lightsaber skills in that fight. While Luke is stronger in ROTJ than he was in ESB, he does not have the experience, yet. If he fought Dooku, Luke would've had a much harder time than he did against his father.
GS335 posted:Again, its due to vader losing his abilities as a result of his injuries. Palpatine thought vader wasn't focus when in reality, vader was limited. He was a lost cause, hence, the reason Palps went after Luke. This has been discussed before.
GS335 posted:vader didn't gain any newfound skills. He was limited, dude. The only thing he was good at, was intimidating people. If folks got past their fear, than they would see that all vader was, was just a shell of what he once was. He wasn't that good.
GS335 posted:No offense, but I think its silly if anyone thinks an untrained boy with limited experience would beat Obi Wan in his prime, or even beat Rots Anakin. Anyone can have great potential. But it takes a lot of training to reach that potential. We've seen with Anakin that potential means nothing if you lack the training. That's why he lost to a more experienced Dooku in AOTC. Luke is no different.
GS335 posted:Level 8s are usually the highest level Jedi go. Obi Wan was at that level in Rots. Anakin was at that level in Rots and was close to becoming a level 9. That's the result of training and experience. At best, ROTJ Luke is a level 5 or 6, due to his lack of experience. There's no way he beats a level 8 or 9, regardless of his potential in the force.
GS335 posted:That was Palpatine's opinion, but the fact that vader has struggled against Jedi who are mobile and powerful proves that he's weaknened. Before his fight with Obi Wan, pre-suit vader (post darkside for Anakin) took out Cin Drallig, who was a powerful and highly skilled Jedi Master. Anavader fought him with one hand, while he used his other hand to force choke one of Drallig's Padawan Learners. He also took out Jedi Knight Serra Keto, when she used two lightsabers to fight Anavader. When you have an experienced, highly skilled Jedi Master who's no match for a younger guy like Anavader, than you know that Anavader was ridiculously powerful. This was from the video game Operation: Knightfall, where its talks about the Jedi slaughter at the temple in great detail. Its canon.
GS335 posted:After his fight with Obi Wan, vader lost a lot of that. He was still strong, yes, but not like he was before. I bet you that if vader fought Cin Drallig post-suit, vader would've had a much harder time against him. Again, the Jedi Knights vader defeated post-suit were far weaker than he was, in the force. Using a force choke on a defenseless guy is not impressive, neither does it equate to him being stronger than he was before he was forced into the suit.
