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Author	Topic: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Nichtganz Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 5/13 5:12pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	I usually skip over any posts containing Sids is uber, or Dark empire refrences, my bad Sids wouldnt last ten minutes with hord. -----signature----- Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur.
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/13 5:16pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/13 5:27pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Sure Sidious had everyone on the Invisible Hand, but what about everyone outside the Invisible Hand. There is know way for him to know that the Invisible Hand would not be shot at, heck it almost blew up there. Well, he did have everyone outside of the Invisible Hand. He's in control of the entire Republic and Separatist militaries. One call on the holocomm and the Republic Navy backs off. One call on the holocomm and the Invisible Hand jumps to safety in hyperspace. In fact, Grievous even noted his concern about this, if you remember: "But driving them to you also sends them directly toward the Chancellor himself! Why does he remain on this ship at all? He should be hidden. He should be guarded. We should have had him outsystem hours ago!" "Matters are so," Count Dooku said, "because Lord Sidious wishes them so..." --Revenge of the Sith Novelization, pgs. 45-46 That's the point-- he put himself in that situation because he knew he held all the cards. And even in the event of an emergency like the ship going down, he still has the resources to survive-- like I said, keeping Grievous from jettisoning the escape pods. Or, heck, telling Grievous to surrender. Anything like that. Palps is one that thrives on having advantages, both for his plans and for his pride. But the biggest thing that you said actually helps prove my point, Palpatines over-confidence. He might view this as the perfect was to get rid of Luke Skywalker. He has fought him enough to know what it will take to kill him, and that taking away his strongest point the force is that. He would probably try to lay a trap inside the Star Destroyer involving the Ysalarmi (or however it is spelt). Heck have Kir Kanos waiting for him, and Luke is done without the aid of the force. Finally Kanos will have his revenge that he promised so many years ago. On the contrary, I think Palpatine's overconfidence would keep him from using ysalamiri. He's got so much power in his own mind-- just like in DE, where he gets pwned by Luke only to call him an "imbecile" who "still failed to understand [his] power" right afterward -- why would he need that to aid him? Especially not at the cost of those powers, which are the biggest thing going for him. Which is huge-- if you take away Luke's strongest point by blocking him from the Force, you're also taking away Sids' strongest point too. And, like I said, it's a double-edged sword that runs Palps through much more severely, considering Luke's already fought against fierce opponents that he couldn't sense in the Force, and possesses combat proficiency outside of the Force. In other words, Palps is "done without the aid of the Force" much more than Luke is. In fact, again, Luke's already demonstrated an ability to use the Force on beings that are voids in it-- that doesn't bode well for anyone relying on a ysalamir to keep from being thrown to the ground in a shower of green sparks. So, by sacrificing his power, Palps would basically be sacrificing himself, and with him one of the major components of any hope for his team to succeed-- just for the mere possibility of taking Luke out. And that's just not Palps. That in addition to what's already been noted, such as the fact that he'd also be relinquishing power (literally) to the likes of Caeds and Thrawn, and issues such as the logistics of putting ysalamiri all over without them being found and killed (especially with members on the team having experience with them), the fact that this dangerously puts almost everyone on Boba Fett's playing field, etc. Now if Tulak Hord was onboard...Sithspit. -----signature----- The invasion corridor looked interestingly similar to a J.
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/13 5:30pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	True, but there was still a huge risk on the Invisible Hand. That ship could have easily blown up then and there killing everyone. Which actually probably would have ended the Clone Wars pretty quick. With the Sith dead and Yoda and Mace still alive. So this risk would be worth it. -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/13 5:56pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Ok, these are by no means perfect judgements, and I'm looking to refine them, but hopefully they are sufficient. Since they're quicker, I believe that the pilots will engage first. Outside The Star Destroyer Jagged Fel, Turr Phennir, Maarek Stele, and Lumiya vs. Soontir Fel and Han Solo For me, this is clear cut. Stele is, at the very least, Soontirs equal, and whilst Han isn't a slouch, Jagged, Phennir and Lumiya should be able to handle him, and then turn on Soontir. Cohesion is the major issue, but it shouldn't be too bad. I don't see Phennir surviving (Fel knows him too well), but the rest should be able to make it on to the Star Destroyer. The strategists here are far better for Steele and co, as they have far better experience with coordinating starfighter battles than their opposition. Inside the Star Destroyer: Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, Kir Kanos and Jango Fett vs. Luke Skywalker, Kyp Durron, Ulic Qel-Droma, and Boba Fett Which leads us to the battle inside. Luke is the best here, but Caedus and Sidious are very close behind. Either of them would be able to hold Luke long enough for the other to go to town on Ulic. Kir is superbly trained, and while he will probably lose to Kyp, will hold him long enough for whoever despatched with Ulic to join the fight. Jango and Boba is close, but Boba, with his greater experience would win. and would be able to help Luke and Kyp. The meld support from Mara and Leia will be an advantage for Luke and co., but with the edition of the pilots, especially Lumiya, who has a psychological advantage over Luke, should be enough for the dark side team to overcome Luke and co. And the strategists (need to be captured/killed to win): Grand Admiral Thrawn and Wilhuff Tarkin vs. Mara Jade Skywalker and Leia Organa-Solo Thrawn and Tarkin are the superior tacticians, whilst Mara and Leia will supply meld support. Due to the greater numbers of non-force sensitives, Tarkin and Thrawn will be the more effective here. Overall - The numerical advantage of the pilots for Emperors Groove is the key here. It will allow Lumiya to eventually enter the battle, and give them the edge in the battle inside the Star Destroyer, especially due to her hold over Luke. Winner - Emperors Groove -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/13 6:11pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	This is an interesting situation here, will have to meditate on it a bit. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/13 7:37pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/13 7:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Ok, these are by no means perfect judgements, and I'm looking to refine them, but hopefully they are sufficient. Yeah, this is the first time we're doing this and everything, so it's all good. Props for being able to trudge through any of it. Though, as you go through to refine, here's some things I noticed in addition to Talon and I's arguments... Which leads us to the battle inside. Luke is the best here, but Caedus and Sidious are very close behind. Either of them would be able to hold Luke long enough for the other to go to town on Ulic. Kir is superbly trained, and while he will probably lose to Kyp, will hold him long enough for whoever despatched with Ulic to join the fight. Jango and Boba is close, but Boba, with his greater experience would win. and would be able to help Luke and Kyp. The meld support from Mara and Leia will be an advantage for Luke and co., but with the edition of the pilots, especially Lumiya, who has a psychological advantage over Luke, should be enough for the dark side team to overcome Luke and co I really don't think there's any combination inside that Star Destroyer that gives ENG the edge. In this scenario, no one's "going to town" on Ulic Qel-Droma, especially with his in-battle healing and Force shielding abilities-- and that's neglecting the fact that Kyp Durron can be in the mix. Even if you do go with the idea that Kyp's going to match up against Kanos for some reason (or team up with Fett against Jango/Kanos like in the example from my argument), that matchup is gonna be cleaned up rather quickly what with that combined Force power and weaponry, and moreso with the support from the strategists. That'd suddenly make it five on two, without even the strategists coming directly into play-- add in the pilots and it's even...until the strategists do directly come into play, if they're even needed. Luke isn't exactly going to be taken out of the pictue by being delayed either, considering he was a good three decades before his prime when he became a maelstrom of Force Energy to cho mai Sids-- the "mark of a superior lightsaber master" in two frames of offense in the DE comic. As far as Lumiya having a psychological advantage over him...I'm assuming you're referring to his actions when he thought that she had killed Mara? In that case, he knows full well who did it now, and Mara is actually fighting by his side here. And even if she did have the same effect on him as in the mid-stages of Legacy, a near-suicidal Luke Skywalker tasked with protecting his family members against those who have already killed/attempted to kill them is not going to make for an easily cleaned Star Destroyer interior. Thrawn and Tarkin are the superior tacticians, whilst Mara and Leia will supply meld support. Due to the greater numbers of non-force sensitives, Tarkin and Thrawn will be the more effective here. Oh, Mara and Leia would probably blow Thrawn and Tarkin away as far as knowing their opponents and being able to effectively strategize against them in this kind of situation. Now Pellaeon does bring more information in the place of Mr. Don't Underestimate Our Chances-- but even that isn't on the level of, say, Mara alone, who's already actually done this kind of thing against several of these people already. Also, meld support is far from the only thing that's going on for them. Not to rehash that list from my initial argument, but Leia's got Force Harmony to help shield the entire team from dark side attacks, as well as Battle Meditation, and unlocking even more resources out of her brother. Which is a concept so ludicrous it's almost plaid. In fact, that ENG has more non-Force-sensitives is actually a disadvantage here. Not only does that mean they can't pool their powers to Sids/Caedus to offset the massive disadvantage from Luke and the gange, or counter peripheral support with their own...but it means they're monumentally more susceptible to the effects of Battle Meditation, which again would come particularly in handy in the space battle, but also in the fight at large. The numerical advantage of the pilots for Emperors Groove is the key here. It will allow Lumiya to eventually enter the battle, and give them the edge in the battle inside the Star Destroyer, especially due to her hold over Luke. Do they really have a numerical advantage, though? In the situation you provided-- Jag, Stele, and Lumiya make it onto the Star Destroyer after defeating Fel/Han. That makes it: Sids, Caeds, Lumiya, Stele, Jag, Jango, Kanos vs. Luke, Ulic, Kyp, Fett, Mara, Leia Unless Thrawn/Pellaeon jump into thick of things, they've only got one more combatant. Which I suppose is technically a numerical advantage, but then there's a numerical advantage as far as powerful Force-users in our favor-- and when you actually imagine those two groups fighting, there's one that's obviously a tighter and better overall unit to take out their opponents. EDIT: And yeah, another incredibly long reply. But there's tons to add in with this kind of battle. And it reminds me of the salad days... -----signature----- The invasion corridor looked interestingly similar to a J.
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 5/13 8:42pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Wait, I thought that the strategists were not allowed to enter combat? -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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Aragorn327 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 5/13 8:49pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/13 8:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Aragorn327
	ThrawnRocks posted: Also, for team battles, would it be legal to have a strategist who can defend themselves really well against the hand-to-hand team? Like sticking Grievous in as one of the strategists, and then arguing that he could fight off the hand-to-hand team? DarthIntegral posted: ... 3) The technique of who is the strategist can be a good one for defense. But, remember, if you have them as your strategist, you lose them in individual battles, and you might not have the ability to get to teams. The goal of teams is to eliminate the enemy strategists, I thought, so at least one team's strategists will be involved in combat for the match to end. -----signature----- "Question not the ways of the script, there's always a bigger fish" The singularity is about to explode.
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Shadow_of_Durron Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 5/13 9:00pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Yuck. This thing really is an absolute disaster area when it comes to teams. Just to throw one suggestion out there: This stuff about being able to draft "strategists" who's real purpose is to be nothing more than two extra actual combatants come team battle time needs to go. Badly. That, or don't label the two spots as being "strategist" spots. Or make it so that any Force users drafted in those spots aren't allowed to use the Force (for anything other than Battle Meditation (or other variations of it)) or a lightsaber in team battles, even when defending themselves. That's just a really dumb disadvantage against those who drafted actual great strategists for their team. I mean, aside from Thrawn and possibly Ackbar, I think I'd much rather just have a couple extra Jedi/Sith on my sqaud for team battles and take the hit in the strategy department. How complex and masterful could a strategy truly be for confrontations on this small a scale, anyways? It's not like we're talking about millions of troops, hundreds of capital ships and countless starfighters here. -----signature----- Your opinion doesn't win because you're angrier.
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DarthIntegral Title: Manager SWC & Arena On Reduced Time Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/14 5:36am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	This is exactly why we are doing a trial run. My intention on allowing strategists to defend themselves was strictly that ... for defense. Not to have them enter the fray and jump into the battle. That is if someone enters the mystical room where the strategist is located, the strategist isn't forced to just say "guess I'll die now", but rather can pull out their weapons and defend themselves against the final onslaught. -----signature----- halibut gave me 15 respect points I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud Sey's big brother "Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/14 2:13pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/14 2:22pm (2 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Yeah, teams is obviously going to be rather bumpy the first time through. There's a number of kinks that definitely need ironed out, but at the risk of being Mr. Obvious over here, we can still overhaul the whole thing if that doesn't work out. In fact I think Zooks had an alternative idea at some point, but I'll let him introduce it if he wishes. Anyway, as far as this particular battle goes-- Leia/Mara being in a "mystical room" overseeing the battle really just highlights the advantages they already bring to the table. Where Thrawn/Pellaeon could simply issue coordinated commands, they can meditate and combine their Force powers to provide several types of support-- strengthening and upholding the Meld, shielding the team from dark side powers with Force Harmony (whilst "distracting" the opponents and "making their actions more difficult," with the prospect of even cutting someone like Palps off from his power), using Battle Meditation especially in the space battle and against non-Force-users (but of course against Force-users as well), sending mental messages to guide the overall conflict (through already incredible mental links), etc. That in addition to the planning they can already preliminarily provide, and the fact that if the battle comes down to it, they can whip out their lightsabers and tandem fight to protect themselves. They could even just combine to add support to Luke, strengthening his power (and continually "opening up more")-- and then we're talking about a jacked-up Luke Skywalker with guys like Ulic and Kyp at this back. A jacked-up Luke Skywalker who's protecting his family. And we've seen what Luke does when put in that situation, not even jacked-up-- Da Soocha V, Belkadan, Yuuzhan'tar, Kashyyyk. Or just imagine Anakin Skywalker with Padme in that room. Otherwise (since this is too is starting to become Executor length ), basically what's already been said in the arguments. I think we fleshed everything out pretty well. EDIT: Oh, and after this Trial and the SFD, I'm guessing we're going to have like a major discussion somewhere with both forums? -----signature----- The invasion corridor looked interestingly similar to a J.
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/14 2:17pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Does Palpatine has some sort of Battle Meditation that he can use too. And what about Caedus. I am sure he has learned something along the lines, I mean what about that Sith Meditation thingy he does? Plus they have the advantage of actually being in the battle, which I think helps better then watching the battle on some screen -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/14 2:46pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/14 2:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	It's pretty much assumed Palps has it (from evidence in the Thrawn Trilogy), yeah, and Caedus definitely does, along with the Mind Meld. However, actually being in the battle is definitely not an advantage-- it's a meditation, and while either is attempting to concentrate on it they completely open themselves up their opponents bearing down upon them. The Meld could potentially be effective, though neither Palps nor Lumiya have any experience with it, and in fact would probably prove more a disadvantage psychologically and in terms of coordination. That's why it would be an advantage for Leia/Mara, because like I said they'd be able to truly meditate together, with Mara pouring her power in to bolster and augment the feat-- as well as be able to coordinate those multiple different supporting feats in addition to the battle at-large. -----signature----- The invasion corridor looked interestingly similar to a J.
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/14 4:09pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Has Leia been shown to use the power purposely. I know in Dark Empire it was more of a automatic (?) type thing. She had no real control I thought. So could she pull this off again. -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/14 4:55pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Oh, definitely. Look at the scan from EE again-- she concentrates and uses it against Palps specifically, with power enough to cause even him damage, and he explicitly exclaims that she's "improved her command" over it. With Mara bolstering her with her own power, and the fact that she's using it not only on her husband and twin, but also someone she's already performed it with (along with, again, Force Harmony, which itself is multiplied by the number of Jedi it's being manifested in), that alone is gonna be wicked hard to overcome. -----signature----- The invasion corridor looked interestingly similar to a J.
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