Author Topic: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
EmpireForever 
Title: Awesomesauce Census & Games mod and definite girl
Registered: Mar '04
43747_Han Solo
Date Posted: 5/15 7:59pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Ghidorah/Beetlejuice

Damn, that's just plain beastly right there. One can only imagine just how perfect an opposing team would have had to be to take down a squad lead by a top two like that. Not to mention just how skilled a GM it would take.


And just imagine the sort of team it would take to beat that team. Such a thing must be impossible, surely.

 

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Nichtganz 
Registered: Jul '07
19074_Naga Sadow
Date Posted: 5/15 10:22pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
are we talking about the guy from the Netherworld, or the sexy guy from howard stern?

 

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MASTERPRENN 
Title: JCC Man.
Forum Feud Winner
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Registered: Dec '05
46271_Raana Tey
Date Posted: 5/15 11:36pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
...

 

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Talon_Kenobi 
Registered: Sep '03
23962_Obi-Wan
Date Posted: 5/16 3:14am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
I think that answer is obvious.

 

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DarthIntegral 
Title: Manager
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Registered: Jul '05
46381_2008 Olympics
Date Posted: 5/16 1:21pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
FYI: Leaning towards both trumps, but a really good argument *might* sway me in the first one.

 

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"Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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New_York_Jedi 
Registered: Mar '02
6846_Ewan McGregor
Date Posted: 5/16 2:26pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Give me a few hours, I just got home from work and need to change/eat dinner.

 

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New_York_Jedi 
Registered: Mar '02
6846_Ewan McGregor
Date Posted: 5/16 5:31pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Lets see. Vader, of course, would handle either of these guys in short order. However, they are a formidable trump. Luckily Han isn’t force sensitive, or a mindmeld could put this out of reach.

However, there are certain things that make this doable for the big bad vader dad. First of all, the Prep is invaluable. Declann can give him the insights of a Grand Admiral into facing these two (not that Vader needs help). He’ll know their strengths, their weakness, their tricks (Shadow bombs). He also counteracts Kyp’s force- Kyp tries to do any force related mumbo jumbo, Vader be like “lol go back to hittin on Han’s teenage daughter lol.”

And, of course, there is the fact that Vader is simply the greatest pilot in the history of the galaxy. That helps. There is no point in getting into a pissing contest over exact amounts of experience here. All these guys have sufficient credentials. Vader, however, is simply flat out better than both these guys.

Impossible, you say, for a mere man to beat Han and Kyp, a not un-formidable duo? Luckily, long before the Rogues were simply sperm in their father’s reproductive organs, Vader’s forte was the impossible.

Consider:

Star Wars, Revenge of the Sith, page 36[/quote posted:

“Obi-Wan shook his head. This was completely impossible. No other pilot would even attempt it. But for Anakin Skywalker, the completely impossible had an eerie way of being merely difficult.”


That was Obi-Wan, not prone to hyperbole, talking about ace’s ability to succeed in the impossible. Of course, that was BEFORE he crash landed half a cruiser on Coruscant, which was his “Masterpiece”:

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith, page 135 posted:

“This is, simply put, impossible. It can’t be done. He’s going to do it anyway. Because he is Anakin Skywalker and he doesn’t believe in impossible”


And, of course, he succeeds. How does he succeed? Well, then we see into the mechanism behind his prodigious flying abilities.

Page 135 posted:
And at the same time he draws power from the force. He gathers perception, and Luck, and sucks himself into the instinctive, preconscious what-will-happen-in-the-next-ten-seconds intuition that has always been the core of his talent


He knows the future. Other Jedi (demonstrated by Corran in I, Jedi), get a sense of what their opponent is thinking, along with heightened reflexes. Vader knows, for sure, what they are doing. You think Tycho would have sent Vader running? Absolutely not.

Maybe some of you like to think, absurdly, that this talent died with Anakin Skywalker and has nothing to do with Vader. Well, frankly, that is ridiculous, but there is evidence that Anakin as Vader maintained his ability to do the impossible, succeed when he has no business in succeeding.

As such, Death Star:

Let us describe Shooter Barvel:
Death Star posted:

There was no need to specify that he was talking about Colonel Vindoo "The Shooter" Barvel, one of the most decorated TIE pilots ever. During the Clone Wars, Barvel had taken out more than thirty confirmed enemy craft in ship-to-ship combat, twice that many more probables, and nobody knew how many he hadn't even bothered to report. Vil knew he himself was a good pilot, a hot-hand even in training, but Barvel, who had been cycled out of combat by jittery brass to make sure the Empire had a live hero to parade around as a recruiter, was the best. Even though he was only a captain at the time, he'd been put in charge of the pilot school at ICNB. Barvel could power-dive the wings off any other craft and hit a target the size of a pleeky on the way down at top speed, port or starboard cannon, you pick which gun. In training missions he'd flown with the man, Vil had felt like a small child who could barely walk trying to keep up with a champion distance runner.


Then let us describe Vader facing him:

death Star posted:

Vader hadn't exactly flown circles around Barvel, but every time The Shooter jigged or jinked, Vader was half a second ahead of him. Barvel was doing things Vil didn't think were possible in a TIE, and Vader not only matched him, move for move, he just plain outflew him. It was— no other word for it—astounding. Vil quickly realized that Vader could have taken the flight school commander out at any time—he was only playing with him.

That had been as spooky in its own way as Vil's nightmare. He'd never seen a human pilot move like that. Damned few alien ones either, for that matter.

After a few passes, and with what had seemed a slow, offhand, lazy series of rolls and loops, Vader came around, nailed Barvel with his training beams, and it was "Game over." All the pilots hanging there in space had to reach up and shut their mouths manually.


Impressive, yes, on its own. Now consider this:

death star posted:

What Vil hadn't mentioned, mostly because he still didn't believe it himself, was that the mechanic who'd serviced Vader's borrowed TIE fighter afterward had come out of the bay shaking his head. The nav and targeting comps had been turned off, he'd said. Cockpit recorder showed that Vader had done that before he'd left the dock. So if the mechanic was to be believed, not only had Vader beaten the best pilot in the navy as easily as if Barvel had been a crop duster on some backrocket world, he had done so on manual.

Which was simply impossible.


Whats that? Vader doing the impossible. Again? Seems to be a talent of his to do that.

Now consider Vader. Well trained, experienced, skilled, force powerful. 24 hours to prepare. His 10 second precognitive ability. His fully functioning computer, in this case. Can Vader do in the skies what Luke can do on the ground? I believe so. Some may say Kyp/Han is an impossible trump to bust. But Vader has done the impossible many times over his career, with out being prepared for it. Being prepared for the impossible makes it exceedingly possible for the Dark Lord of the Sith.

And I'm off to read invincible. Peace out.

 

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KenKenobi 
Registered: Jul '02
17773_Pash Cracken
Date Posted: 5/16 7:17pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Playing the impossible card against Han Solo?

Bah. Let me eat too.

 

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New_York_Jedi 
Registered: Mar '02
6846_Ewan McGregor
Date Posted: 5/16 9:30pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Vader > Han, thus Vader's impossible defying > Hans Impossible defying. QED. or something.

 

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KenKenobi 
Registered: Jul '02
17773_Pash Cracken
Date Posted: 5/16 10:21pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/16 10:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
Except Han defies the impossible without the aid of the Force.

Nevermind that that's some incredibly faulty logic. Holyfield > Buster Douglas, so any Holyfield upset > Douglas upsetting Tyson? I think not.

Yeah. Rest up in a bit.

 

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Suzuki_Akira 
Registered: May '03
46362_2008 Olympics
Date Posted: 5/16 10:47pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
When have Han and Kyp flown together, much less as wingmates? I can remember one or two occasions, but perhaps the GM can shed some light on this.

 

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KenKenobi 
Registered: Jul '02
17773_Pash Cracken
Date Posted: 5/17 3:12am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/17 3:30am (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
Alright, well...

Oh, first of all, just while it's kind of on topic-- about Skywalker's feats and Vader. If we begin counting Vader as he kneels before Palps in RotS, then anything before that isn't him, right, as he's basically "born" there? Otherwise there's a whole dilemma with the Skywalker-Vader-Skywalker arc.

But here though, yeah, I get the idea of using those references to set up that he's still got that skill as Vader, even if doesn't count as his experience. Not that he needs it. And Anakin's on the team anyway. So...


Declann can give him the insights of a Grand Admiral into facing these two (not that Vader needs help).

Which would be...what, exactly? Fleet Admiral tactics are going to do little here in a dogfight, and Vader'd probably throw half of it out the window anyway.

Declann: "Well you could try flying like this..."
Vader: "Shut the **** up." *choke*

Vader's benefit of prep is going to be the time to make a plan. And any pre-planning is offset not just by the same time for his opponents to plan together-- definitely benefiting the trump more-- but also by the fact that everyone in this match is really at the pinnacle of piloting on-the-fly.

He’ll know their strengths, their weakness, their tricks (Shadow bombs)

Both of them died at Endor-- they're not even gonna have any idea who Kyp Durron is, let alone techniques like the shadow bomb. And really, I don't think there's anyone in the entire universe who can boast knowing all of Han Solo's tricks.

He also counteracts Kyp’s force- Kyp tries to do any force related mumbo jumbo, Vader be like “lol go back to hittin on Han’s teenage daughter lol.”

*Kyp tries Force-related mumbo-jumbo*
Vader: "lol go back to hittin on Han's teenage daughter lol"
*Vader attempts to lock onto Kyp*
*Vader is rocked by explosions*
Vader: Wat?!
Han: YEEEE-HOOOO!

Just to play along. tongue

There is no point in getting into a pissing contest over exact amounts of experience here. All these guys have sufficient credentials. Vader, however, is simply flat out better than both these guys.

Better than either individually? Sure. But that hardly means better than the combination.

His fully functioning computer, in this case.

Well (if only as a sidenote), it was functional before-- "Cockpit recorder showed that Vader had done that before he'd left the dock."

Can Vader do in the skies what Luke can do on the ground? I believe so.

Can Vader even do what Luke can do in the skies? mischief

Man that's a goofy smiley.

He knows the future. Other Jedi (demonstrated by Corran in I, Jedi), get a sense of what their opponent is thinking, along with heightened reflexes. Vader knows, for sure, what they are doing.
...
His 10 second precognitive ability


That's really a gross exaggeration. Skywalker's got an intuitive instinct-- he doesn't actually know everything the future holds, as if he's watching a vidscreen ten seconds ahead of time. Aside from the fact that always in motion it is, the text just doesn't go that far.

Second of all, the ability as it truly is is definitely not something exclusive to Skywalker(s). In fact, Kyp Durron himself has showed it off-- notably when piloting with Han (conveniently enough) against Doole's X-wing/Y-wing/TIE fighter fleet. He "knew when Doole was going to switch on the energy shield," lurching forward despite the fact that he was in a "supply ship, not a fighter"-- to the point that "If Kyp hadn't punched their acceleration exactly when he did, [he] would have been sizzled in the bath of power or trapped beneath the shield, unable to escape" (Jedi Search, 203-206).

And that's just one example. And for Kyp, that's as a kid who's been in the mines of Kessel since he was eight-- which means he hasn't exactly been in a spacecraft before, and yet he then subsequently flies through the Maw. Even after the deployment of Doole and Daala's forces. Blind. Twice. With "some of the most delicate, most difficult manuevers Han had ever seen" (Jedi Search 221).

Third of all, "getting a sense of what their opponent is thinking" was definitely hampered against the Yuuzhan Vong-- where Kyp still managed to perform exceptionally, and showed he definitely doesn't rely solely that use of the Force. Gavin Darklighter is heralded for lasting twenty-five seconds in a sim against a single coralskipper-- Kyp has the first contact at Helska and not only survives "dozens and dozens" of the Praetorite armada, but actually destroys some skips (including one-on-one and one-on-two engagements).

Fourth, generalizing Jedi with Corran Horn? Not cool. tongue


Anyways, here's what I think it boils down to. Everyone in this fight is ridiculously talented. And proven through experience. Yadda yadda. But fact is, neither of these guys even alone is vapebait for Vader-- considering what Jacen calls the "controlled fury" of someone of Kyp's power and skill, and the fact that Han Solo is...well, Han Solo. I think he speaks for himself.

And here, they're together. Vader's gonna have his Gloved hands full just keeping up with their techniques in evasion, shield-bubbling, etc., let alone anticipate the different tricks and manuevers these two are gonna pull out. Especially as the time to prepare sways in their favor with an ability to share ideas and coordinate beforehand. Time to strategize as a team. Time for Han to loosen the bolts on his craft. He's going in against the Dark Lord of the Sith, you say? One with a penchance for the impossible and an ability to outfly almost anyone?

Never tell him the odds.

 

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New_York_Jedi 
Registered: Mar '02
6846_Ewan McGregor
Date Posted: 5/17 3:14pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
KenKenobi posted:


Declann can give him the insights of a Grand Admiral into facing these two (not that Vader needs help).

Which would be...what, exactly? Fleet Admiral tactics are going to do little here in a dogfight, and Vader'd probably throw half of it out the window anyway.




Just wanted to point out that Declann got his chops and drew the attention of the Emperor in Starfighters, not commanding big ships. He's a seasoned pilot. He knows a thing or two about piloting, he's not exclusive to big ships like Thrawn is.

 

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Suzuki_Akira 
Registered: May '03
46362_2008 Olympics
Date Posted: 5/17 4:05pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
Vader is going up against two potential first round pilots in an SFD type situation. Either of them he could take, and he could probably take them both if they didn't know each other. But they do have substantial experience together, and combined with their skill I think they would be able to take it very, very narrowly - if Han was in the Falcon. Which then requires the question - is Han in the Falcon or a starfighter?

 

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KenKenobi 
Registered: Jul '02
17773_Pash Cracken
Date Posted: 5/17 6:34pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/17 6:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
NYJ: Just wanted to point out that Declann got his chops and drew the attention of the Emperor in Starfighters, not commanding big ships. He's a seasoned pilot. He knows a thing or two about piloting, he's not exclusive to big ships like Thrawn is.

Oh, well yeah-- even if it is just a passing mention in the Taun We Insider. Which I remember because I wrote in a letter about that article, and it was published in the next issue. As Rex Sundale. Hahahaha. tongue

But anyway anyway...again, I think Vader'd just throw it out the airlock. Especially if Declann's in one of his "mood swings." tongue


Zooks: Which then requires the question - is Han in the Falcon or a starfighter?

Interesting-- though, if Han's got the Falcon, it's really pure sabacc for the trump.

Not that he needs it to win here. Assuming he is in a starfighter, he's still got plenty of experience. And that's aside from the fact that he usually flies the Falcon like a fighter-- something that takes loads of skill, as Kenobi is even astounded he and Chewie can just operate a freighter like that with a crew of only two. But his dogfighting skills are superb even without the Falcon-- take all of Chapter IV of Han's Solo at Star's End, for example. In fact, I might as well pull out a few quotes.

With the Falcon being serviced, and under attack from a CSA fleet, Han decides to lead the outlaw base against the enemy's interceptors-- in outdated, stripped down Z-95's no less, against the much faster and heavily armed IRD's...

    Indicating the snubs, Han asked Jessa, "What'd you do, knock over a museum?"

    "Picked them up from a planetary constabularly; they were using them for antismuggling operations, matter of fact. We worked them over for resale, but hung on to them because they're the only combat craft we've got right now. And don't you be so condescending, Solo; you've spent your share of time in snubs."

    That he had. Han dashed over to one of the Headhunters as a ground crewman finished fueling it...

    --Han Solo at Star's End, page 47


He then gathers together the rest of the pilots to instruct them on how to approach the battle, strategizing beforehand. In space, he hooks up with his wing man-- someone he'd just met, let alone have any experience with-- and begins to thinking about dogfighting specifically, continuing on with...

    Once, Han had lived, eaten, and slept high-speed flying. He'd trained under men who thought of little else. Even off-duty life had revolved around hand-eye skills, control, balance. Drunk, he'd stood on his head and played ring-toss, and been flung aloft from a blanket with a handful of darts to twist midair and throw bull's-eyes time and again. He'd flown ships like this one, and ships a good deal faster, through every conceivable manuever.

    --Han Solo at Star's End, page 51


And I won't go on to quote the whole rest of the battle (though obviously I could provide more references if really needed), but basically it's Han Solo being...well, Han Solo. He dives right in to take on the Espo leader one-on-one and straight schools him, despite the major difference in craft speed and weaponry (in fact the Authority had prototypes of the "latest military design").

And he does it on pure skill, without relying on his computer-- as "he knew this engagement would be conducted on visual ranging; all the complicated sensor-warfare apparatus tended to cancel out, no longer to be trusted." Instead, he simply goes with "the instincts that had given him a reputation for telepathy." Even though he doesn't have the Force.

Then he immediately begins coordinating with Jessa to finish them off...and then when Jessa gets into trouble, he swoops in to pull a RotS Skywalker and nudge her fighter to save her life-- in a Z-95.

That of course in addition to Valedictorian in Fel's class at the Academy, being a New Republic flight instructor and tech through DE (with such craft as stolen Imp prototypes and E-wings), pulling feats in a TIE Bomber that Luke considered "all the more impossible." But I bring up this example in particular because not only had Han never flown with this group before...but they were all rather inexperienced pilots, only one in fact with any combat time at all. And he still guided them to victory-- in fact, emphasizing several times throughout the entire chapter the key of the "two-ship element" of flying...

    "If you've got anything worth protecting with those flight helmets, you'll remember this: stay with your wing man. Without him, you're dead. Two ships together are five times as effective as they would be alone, and they're ten times safer."

    --Han Solo at Star's End, page 49


And here, he's not with a green pilot-- he's with Kyp Durron. He's not with someone whose name he doesn't even know-- he's with someone he's incredibly close with, and in fact has flown with before. At his prime, I doubt he's in a beat-up old Headhunter either, with Kyp at least in a StealthX. And both of them have an entire day to sit down and perfect how they're going to fly together, and plan out what coordinated techniques and tricks they're gonna pull to take out Darth Vader.

 

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