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Author	Topic: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/14 4:03pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Actually he did that without a lightsaber too. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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New_York_Jedi Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 6/14 10:23pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Bah. Assuming you mean the seedship, it was a unique situation that his affinity for animals allowed him to exploit- he was covered in amphistaffs, which means he was better armed/armored than just having a single lightsabre, really. Also, it wasn't deadly skill that allowed him to succeed- he was smart enough to target the control over the slaves which created a completely chaotic situation. That wasn't a Ganneresque example of mowing down Vong. He also had the advantage of that seed in his chest which allowed him to work with the future world brain. That situation wasn't an example of skill- it was an example of when Jacen had an IQ above that of a sack of hammers. Totally not comparable to facing someone like Anakin one on one. But you're right, if this fight had taken place without the force on a Yuzhaan Vong seed ship, Jacen totally would beat Anakin.
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/15 8:28am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	He wasn't working with the world brain until after the revolt, cause, you know, he was trying to kill them at the time - all the world brains were working AGAINST him via the slave seed while he was mowing down Vong. But yes, he was smart enough to initiate a revolt so that he'd maybe only have to kill thirty Yuuzhan Vong himself with an unfamiliar weapon without any kind of precognitive reaction enhancing field of vision widening Force powers(the first one completely unarmed) instead of hundreds. Sure, he wouldn't have succeeded without that. But then, without skill, this tactical move would have been irrelevant. Because he'd be dead. I'm guessing take it you've never fought multiple opponents before. Or at all. Because your skepticism of this as a feat of skill is completely lol. Completely. The martial art I am currently studying has the highest level of skill below complete mastery as being able to fight two or three competent people, IIRC. Why? Because that's a typical limitation when your field of vision is only one hundred something degrees, and you have two arms and two legs, and your enemies have the same times however many there are. Anything beyond that is mastery, because its nearly impossible, even against untrained opponents, much less trained warriors. Before the slave revolt even came into full force, he had to dispatch the squad that initially started the confrontation. Without the Force. Meaning, with his own instincts and techniques adapted to a weapon he'd never used before. Btw, if you recall, Ganner created a chaotic situation(they dueled him one on one for a while...before they all rushed him he had a pile of bodies to use to his advantage) but we recognize it for the feat it is. Really, even if Jacen fought three of these guys Forceless it would be an immense show of pure skill. Seriously. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/15 12:31pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 6/15 12:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	That situation wasn't an example of skill- it was an example of when Jacen had an IQ above that of a sack of hammers. Uh huh. Honestly I don't know how in the world you could come to the conclusion that Jacen Solo doesn't show skill even just in the few pages before he sprints into battle in Chapter Five. Then again, your neglect to mention his actions before he forms the amphistaffs around him, assumption of the dhuryam's aid even before the shreeyam'tiz was destroyed, and ignorance to the fact that the slaves of the other dhuryams also became his enemies after that point, where still "All he did was walk and kill," leads to the belief that you probably haven't actually picked up the book in awhile. But you're right, if this fight had taken place against a Jacen Solo circa Traitor, Skywalker could probably still pull it out. Totally not comparable to facing someone like Anakin one on one. Oh, wait, that's right-- this isn't Jacen Solo circa Traitor. And while LotF might've been rather forgettable, he did face an unBantamized Luke Skywalker one-on-one. Which is kind of comparable to facing someone like Anakin, to throw a dodgeball at an aircraft carrier. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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New_York_Jedi Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 6/15 4:10pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Suzuki_Akira posted: He wasn't working with the world brain until after the revolt, cause, you know, he was trying to kill them at the time - all the world brains were working AGAINST him via the slave seed while he was mowing down Vong. But yes, he was smart enough to initiate a revolt so that he'd maybe only have to kill thirty Yuuzhan Vong himself with an unfamiliar weapon without any kind of precognitive reaction enhancing field of vision widening Force powers(the first one completely unarmed) instead of hundreds. Sure, he wouldn't have succeeded without that. But then, without skill, this tactical move would have been irrelevant. Because he'd be dead. No they weren't. His world brain was with him the entire time- Thus Vergre conving him not to kill it, thus the weapons that it had it's slaves hid all over the place. And he killed the first UNARMED UNARMORED warrior because the warrior bullrushed him. S_A posted: I'm guessing take it you've never fought multiple opponents before. Or at all. Because your skepticism of this as a feat of skill is completely lol. Completely. The martial art I am currently studying has the highest level of skill below complete mastery as being able to fight two or three competent people, IIRC. Why? Because that's a typical limitation when your field of vision is only one hundred something degrees, and you have two arms and two legs, and your enemies have the same times however many there are. But he wasn't limited to his field of vision, was he? Traitor, 93 posted: Thudbugs hum through the air around him, but the eyespots of the amphistaffs wrapped around Jacen's body are infrared- and motion-sensitive; he is able to intergrate their emphatic reactions into a full-surround field of perception that is not dissimiliar to the Force itself- S_A posted: Anything beyond that is mastery, because its nearly impossible, even against untrained opponents, much less trained warriors. Before the slave revolt even came into full force, he had to dispatch the squad that initially started the confrontation. Without the Force. Meaning, with his own instincts and techniques adapted to a weapon he'd never used before. The first two he kills are unarmed and unarmored, and one at a time. With 17 amphistaffs on him, its not a big deal. And, yes, it is more than I would do, but I'd expect any competent Jedi apprentice to be able to do the same. And after that, he kills one armed and armored warrior before setting off the thudbugs that release the slaves, and getting knocked out for a moment. So lets be clear- without the slaves and the ensuing ruckus, he killed three Vong, two of them who had no weapons or armor. Not 30. Not even close. [quote] Really, even if Jacen fought three of these guys Forceless it would be an immense show of pure skill. Seriously.[/quote] Too bad he didn't do that. yeah, Jacen's got some skills, but that's not his strong suite, per se. KoalaKid: [quote]Uh huh. Honestly I don't know how in the world you could come to the conclusion that Jacen Solo doesn't show skill even just in the few pages before he sprints into battle in Chapter Five. Then again, your neglect to mention his actions before he forms the amphistaffs around him, assumption of the dhuryam's aid even before the shreeyam'tiz was destroyed, and ignorance to the fact that the slaves of the other dhuryams also became his enemies after that point, where still "All he did was walk and kill," leads to the belief that you probably haven't actually picked up the book in awhile.[/quote] What actions? Throwing one unarmed and unarmored dude into the grove? And the dhyurams became his enemies, sure- but they had no idea what was going on and just clustered their slaves around themselves. Their unarmed slaves, who also helped Jacen by wiping out the guards around the Dhyurams. As opposed to Jacen's Dhyuram, which was organized and had weapons hidden for it's slaves and gave him a freaking escort. And if mowing down unarmed, untrained slaves while you are bristiling with blades is an example of skill, uh sure, yeah he's mad skilled (not to mention that the amphistaffs also reacted instictively when people came close). [quote]And while LotF might've been rather forgettable, he did face an unBantamized Luke Skywalker one-on-one. Which is kind of comparable to facing someone like Anakin, to throw a dodgeball at an aircraft carrier.[/quote] That would be the fight where he lost? Lived because Luke let him live? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As it goes, Jacen beating Anakin is whatever. I'll freely acknowledge that my opinion of Jacen is much lower than probably anyone else's. But his win would be because he has better applied power (and he's smarter, even as Darth Retardo). Skill with a blade? not so much. So go on and have the the last word, both of you. I'll stop arguing. I'm not going to change anyone's mind anyways.
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/15 5:34pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	What's with people pulling Shurrons nowadays? If you don't want to argue a point, don't bring it up to begin with, instead of this pussy "but I know how this will go and I dont feel liek it" ****. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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Kyptastic Title: Manager Emeritus SWD Co-Commish Registered: Sep '05	Date Posted: 6/15 5:45pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Um, yeah, Durge -----signature----- Valar Morghulis
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New_York_Jedi Registered: Mar '02	Date Posted: 6/15 5:49pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Suzuki_Akira posted: What's with people pulling Shurrons nowadays? If you don't want to argue a point, don't bring it up to begin with, instead of this pussy "but I know how this will go and I dont feel liek it" ****. Alright, fine, go ahead and respond. I'll keep going. Its stupid, but fine. No need to throw a hissy fit.
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Shadow_of_Durron Title: Games Draft Commish Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/15 5:49pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Why? That's why. Jacen burgles turds. Deal. -----signature----- I'm not just sure. I'm HIV positive.
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DarthIntegral Title: Manager -SWC -Arena -Forum Feud Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 6/15 5:58pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Winners Bracket: Team Rufio is just chillin. Losers Bracket: Ko He shin (6) vs. Emperor's New Groove (4) Ko He shin wins. Now, if only we could move on from the Anakin-Caedus match. Team Rufio vs. Ko He shin One win for Rufio wins it, two wins for Ko He shin. You can send in one, or two sets of numbers this time guys. Just get them in in the next 24 hours. -----signature----- halibut gave me 15 respect points I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud Sey's big brother "Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/15 6:17pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	I'm not throwing a hissy fit. Really, it doesn't bother me that much. I just don't understand, is all. -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/15 11:36pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 6/16 12:20am (2 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Nigel: Just to set this up, even though there are somewhat two strains of debate going on there, I kind of replied in correction to some of your response to Zooks in addition to respond to your comments to me, considering it's all pretty much in the same main argument. And then I suppose we could move on from that match. Or right now. Actually I wasn't planning on typing any of this up but Zooks convinced me to. Kind of. Cause I also get to steer clear from the whole "I have an argument but just don't feel like it" thing. But yeah feel free to skip this and continue on with your actual life and such. I think both Skywalker and Jacen are pretty rad myself, as far as the original matchup goes. No they weren't. His world brain was with him the entire time- Thus Vergre conving him not to kill it, thus the weapons that it had it's slaves hid all over the place. Nah, that's not quite true. Fact is, the dhuryam, not yet a World Brain, was telepathically disrupted until after the shreeyam'tiz was destroyed. In fact, not only is it wrong to say that it was "with him the entire time," but so too is implying that the dhuryam directly helped him perform his feats to the point of negating them as skill. Because even when it was "with him," all it did was fan out its slaves to continue contributing to the chaos. It provided him with five slaves at his perimeter to help his charge against the hive-island, two of which were immediately killed in the warrior-slave death fray, and another that falls right after that. And that's it. Meanwhile before and after he's slaughtering everyone in his path, despite critical pain and injuries. And he killed the first UNARMED UNARMORED warrior because the warrior bullrushed him. ... The first two he kills are unarmed and unarmored, and one at a time. With 17 amphistaffs on him, its not a big deal. The first one he kills is unarmed and unarmored, yes-- but, surprise, so is he. He doesn't have the amphistaffs yet. Oh, by the way, he doesn't have the Force either, which is what he's, you know, taught to fight with from birth. Neither does he have the advantage of having a natural weapon like razor-sharp talons, which the Yuuzhan Vong warrior does. And on top of all of that...his entire body is being racked with intense pain by the slave seed-- every nerve in his body is sizzling. And yet he still kills the leader with almost no effort. Kind of a big deal, to quote Ron Burgundy. And the second one's really "one at a time" in only a very loose sense. He's running toward the "squads of fully armed warriors"-- that's squads, plural, and they're the guards of some of the most precious Yuuzhan Vong life-forms in the entire galaxy-- when he dismembers that warrior. He "does not even break stride." And, yes, it is more than I would do, but I'd expect any competent Jedi apprentice to be able to do the same. Well, throughout the NJO, dozens of Jedi Apprentices and Knights are depicted falling to Yuuzhan Vong warriors, even with all of their tools at their disposal-- i.e. weapons they are intimate with and energy fields they rely on. Plus, lol @ Grandmaster of the Old Jedi Order attempting to kill a Yuuzhan Vong warrior in a situation without the Force/lightsaber. Maybe if he's on Jacen's shoulders or something. And after that, he kills one armed and armored warrior before setting off the thudbugs that release the slaves, and getting knocked out for a moment. Yeah, that's technically correct (save they were blast bugs, not thud bugs, but that's some silly semantics). However, before you cast just that aside as something not particularly skillful, it'd benefit to look at the entire context there. He did all of that while sprinting toward the "oncoming thunderclouds of warrior squads" and being pounded with thud bugs and blast bugs, withstanding not only the massive detonations that scatter handfuls of the warrior guards but also the strikes that batter him directly. He even did it with the warriors not even being his main target-- he did it whilst creating an explosion that not only wiped out the two squads that had drawn themselves into a tight wedge pointing against him, but also destroyed the shreeyam'tiz that was his goal. In fact, that's the only reason he's even knocked onto the ground at all. And I mean, I think that's an example of just, you know, at least a little bit of skill, to be able to be so insanely successful one-on-one in those conditions. And that's just the beginning of the chapter. So lets be clear- without the slaves and the ensuing ruckus, he killed three Vong, two of them who had no weapons or armor. Not 30. Not even close. Heh, this is just too funny. "There, you see? Nom Anor nodded contemptuously toward the suddenly vivid image in the viewspider's optical sac..."Your 'greatest of all the Jedi' has succeeded in killing a mere two or three warriors. A useless, weak fool--" "You are paying attention," Vergere chimed. "I ask you again: let me go to him before we are all lost." --Traitor, page 96 Sorry, the parallel there was just too uncanny. As far as the implication that "the slaves and the ensuing ruckus," and not his skill, were what enabled Jacen to perform his following feats....well, I suppose that's what's next, actually. What actions? Throwing one unarmed and unarmored dude into the grove? Well, he too is unarmed and unarmored. And does not have razor nails. Does have every nerve in his body singed with pain. And the dhyurams became his enemies, sure- but they had no idea what was going on and just clustered their slaves around themselves. Clustered them around the hive-island, "to surround themselves with walls of flesh." Oh, and where is Jacen heading? The hive-island. The point was, those slaves were certainly not his allies, and were attacking him as much as they were throwing themselves at the warrior-ring. And thus the idea that "Oh, Jacen killed like three guys and then things blew up and everything else he did was not a show of skill he had help of the slave revolt" just doesn't hold water. In fact, what he did after the chaos, in the very midst of the chaos, is kind of even more impressive than what he did before. Their unarmed slaves, who also helped Jacen by wiping out the guards around the Dhyurams. Well, yeah, they're unarmed. There are also thousands of them moving in a suicidal rage. Pressing up the beach not only against the guards but also Jacen himself, and especially as he begins to climb the mountain to kill their dhuryam masters. Again, they're not trying to "help" him, and they're certainly not doing it in a sense where it removes the need for skill to pull off what he does. No, they're attacking him in their mad rage to break through the warrior-ring on the hive-island. But Jacen not only faces them and the warriors on the island, but also numerous masqued warriors and crazed shapers. And he slaughters them all. He simply slaughters them. "All he did was walk, and kill." He massacres them on his way to the island, he massacres them on the beach, he massacres them climbing the mountain, and at the top he just kills and kills and kills. In fact, as he enters the hive-lake-- which is on fire, by the way-- near the beginning, he's half swimming as well. Half swimming and killing "Any warrior or attacking slave in his path." Oh, plus he's bleeding to death, has broken ribs, just sustained a concussion, and is feeling the insane pain of others' wounds the entire time. Yeah. As opposed to Jacen's Dhyuram, which was organized and had weapons hidden for it's slaves and gave him a freaking escort. Well, his escort was only five slaves, against hundreds at the least. And two of them die right after Jacen gets up, another soon after. It's he and two slaves for a bit-- their aid coming in the form of just hacking into the crazy mob to help beat them back while Jacen continues his own rampage-- and then it's just him as he ascends the island, turning it into a "nightmare mountain." And if mowing down unarmed, untrained slaves while you are bristiling with blades is an example of skill, uh sure, yeah he's mad skilled (not to mention that the amphistaffs also reacted instictively when people came close). "Mowing down unarmed, untrained slaves" is a bit of an oversimplification. It's a "crush" of hundreds of them swamping up toward him in suicidal madness. But there's also the armed warrior-ring, the mad shapers within, the masqued warriors throughout, and the clusterkriff up the mountain where he "burns down the universe" to culminate a slaughter so vivid it was almost unseen in all of Star Wars up to that point. That would be the fight where he lost? Lived because Luke let him live? Well that wasn't quite my original point, but since when is pointing out a loss to Luke kriffing Skywalker a comeback? He does own the second most powerful person in the entire galaxy in about three frames. Three decades before his prime. And three decades later, Jacen duels him, and doesn't die in two seconds. And that's saying something. But yeah, anyway...I wasn't even a part of that match. Good luck in the one we're in now, though. Wang: Yeah and Padme poops diamonds! It's true and I have the perfect argument to prove it but I don't want to! Nah nah nah nah! Deal! -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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DarthIntegral Title: Manager -SWC -Arena -Forum Feud Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 6/16 2:25pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Team Rufio (0) vs. Ko He shin (0) Star with P2 Han Solo TRUMPED with Luke Skywalker vs. Tycho Celchu TRUMPED with Gavin Darklighter -----signature----- halibut gave me 15 respect points I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud Sey's big brother "Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Suzuki_Akira Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/17 4:41am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 6/17 5:13am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthIntegral
	[insert religious figure here]...arguments plz -----signature----- God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 6/17 10:01am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 6/17 10:02am (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Nah, I'm good. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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