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Topic:
Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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New_York_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
6/17 3:19pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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There are three Rogue Squadron Leaders in this match.
Never thought I'd see that.
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/17 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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You know it's not a given that you'll win this faceoff, Ken? That Gavin and Tycho is a trump of insane skill whose starfighter experience probably far surpasses that of yours(while skill is probably somewhat equivalent since Han is just NOT going to do anything but rival these guys in ship specific skill), right Ken? Because if you do, I can go ahead and judge right now.
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God is great, the Lord of all. "I find your lack of faith disturbing..." Those who dare oppose us will stand knee deep in the blood of their children. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=158008483
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/17 6:13pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
- Date Edited:
6/17 6:14pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KenKenobi
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k.
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DarthIntegral
Title: Manager
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Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/17 7:32pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Cool then. I'll take Gavin and Tycho. I love Luke and think he's the best pilot in the galaxy, but I think the combination of Tycho and Gavin isn't going to be beat here.
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halibut gave me 15 respect points
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"Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/17 8:31pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
- Date Edited:
6/17 8:59pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
KenKenobi
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Cool then.
EDIT: Wait is it cause of cohesion or experience? Or...skill, I guess maybe? Or something.
I suppose I could make an argument after that, if necessary.
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/17 8:31pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Well I think Tycho Gavin is a great combination, but Luke and Han have immense cohesion of their own. I think it deserves to go to a third, because Luke is a top three pilot at least - Tycho's accuracy is otherworldly but Han's evasion is too, so skills make this a difficult matchup. Again, to a third.
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DarthIntegral
Title: Manager
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Jul '05
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Date Posted:
6/18 5:50am
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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KenKenobi posted:
Cool then.
EDIT: Wait is it cause of cohesion or experience? Or...skill, I guess maybe? Or something.
I suppose I could make an argument after that, if necessary.
Mainly, it's because, IMO, Luke > Tycho > Gavin > Han. And, some added cohesion and experience help push Gavin/Tycho over the top. Not that Luke and Han don't have good experience and good cohesion, it's just that Gavin/Tycho have it just a smidgen better in both categories. .
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halibut gave me 15 respect points
I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud
Sey's big brother
"Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/19 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Ah, okay. Well, I'm gonna go play some softball, and then I'll post something.
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Zizz
Title: M&TV Draft Commish
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
6/19 6:16pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
- Date Edited:
6/19 6:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Zizz
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THAT'S A LONG SOFTBALL GAME!!! LOL
EDIT: IT'S ACTUALLY NOT THAT LONG, I MISREAD THE TIME AND THOUGHT IT WAS LONGER. ZIZZ FTL.
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/20 2:43am
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
- Date Edited:
6/20 3:13am (4 edits total)
Edited By:
KenKenobi
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Well, now it does seem like a crazy long time. 
But it was more than one game. And then I had to eat. And...then I ran out of excuses.
SO, ZIZZ FTW
Mainly, it's because, IMO, Luke > Tycho > Gavin > Han.
Well, that's roughly how I'd see it too, so I wouldn't consider that too much of a problem.
Really, though, if anybody thinks Han Solo is gonna be the weak link here, they're kidding themselves-- the sole fact that he's with Luke ups his value a Hutt-fold (not that I think Hutts can actually be folded). Not only can he match everyone in straight skill, but he has been flying longer than everybody else-- entering official military service in The Paradise Snare before Gavin was even a wokling, and earning a ridiculous reputation just in that service before Celchu even reported to Prefsbelt.
Of course Tycho/Gavin have their loads of experience, too-- if they didn't, this match would've been like blastering Gungans in a barrel. In fact, everyone in this match has insane amounts of skill and experience, and trying to hash it all out or compare it would pretty well take us to Ludicrous Speed. Add in the complexities that go along with them both being trumps, and we'd go to Plaid.
So, rather than do that, and type out one gorax of an argument for the whole thing, I'll just summarize a few for why Luke/Han win this match.
The "Who's taking Rogue Five?" Argument
Luke is definitely the best individual in this matchup, to put it simply. Neither of the opposing trump is going to be able to straight-up outfly him alone, and for them to take him out, it's going to take both working against him together.
The problem with that can be summed up in two words-- Han Solo. To think that he's going to just float idle in space while two former Rogue Leaders double up on his old pal would be a first-degree felony in the Court of Inty. Similarly, to count him out right at the beginning of the match as if Celchu and Darklighter are just going to blow through him is to commit the same offense against Luke himself.
Really, the only reason Han Solo doesn't simply Chalk every other pilot on the board not named Skywalker is because much of his flying has been done in a stock freighter. Of course, that's even more testament to his skills because he flies it like a snub, but it also means he generally has a gunner in combat. Put him against Tycho/Gavin alone and sure he might not win, but he would give them a Corellian Hell of a time keeping him in that targeting box.
Here, he's not alone. The struggle inherent in trying to keep Han Solo in your sights is magnified more than a dozen parsecs by the fact that he's paired with one of those Skywalkers. And yeah, he might still go down before the match is over, but he's gonna draw it out longer than a month of Wookiee Life Days-- giving Luke all the time and maneuverability he needs to turn a trump into a boom.
The "How do you know how the galaxy is bound together?" Argument
Like I said, there's a ridiculous amount of skill and experience in this match-- probably more than in any starfighter match in the history of ever. And it's on both sides. But there's also another category here...and that's the Force. And that's a blowout.
Basically it breaks down into three parts.
1.) "Use the Force, Luke"-- His targeting computer's off, but he's alright. Luke's unparalleled Force skills give him by and far the most incredible flying abilities in this match. Not only that, but he can extend his senses to gain a better sense of the battle and know exactly how to use those abilities to their max (and more on that in a bit). Of course, this is a given, it's part of what the argument above was touching on. Luke's the best here, and the Force is strong with him. But it doesn't just stop there...
2.) "Hokey religions"-- It doesn't just stop there, because while Han might not have the Force, Luke can communicate with him. And while Solo's not going to benefit from exactly the immediate danger sense provided by Force-sensibility, he can benefit from Luke adding to his field of perception. He already had gained a reputation for having telepathy due to his incredible instincts-- and the manuevers and high-speed antics that extended from them. Give him coordination with an actual telepathic wizard, and not only are they gonna fly that much tighter together, but the good blaster at his side is gonna work that much better at shooting first.
3.) "Don't underestimate the Force"-- So the two above are pretty obvious. Of course the Force gives an individual certain advantages in starfighter combat, and Luke of all people demonstrates that. And of course you can use the Force to extend your senses and better coordinate with your ally on both small and large scales...and Luke of all people demonstrates that.
But it also does much, much more than that. Luke might be in a cockpit, but he's still Luke Skywalker. No, I'm not gonna argue that Luke is going to go off melting Tycho/Gavin's brains in flight, or holding their ships in place while Han pummels them like a Base Delta Zero-- even though he probably could. No I mean he...he actually could.
Even scaling back for our purposes here, however, the Force provides a myriad of options. The first-- we'll call this 3a-- is the old Jedi mind trick. Affect Mind. Force Illusion. Whatever you want to call it. Remember the ridiculous Jade Shadow replication trick in Dark Nest? Made him look all Palpsy at first, but then he was like "Oh yeah, I'm Luke Skywalker" and could do it minus the wrinkles. Or at Fondor, humiliating Caedus with an entire enemy fleet visual? Not only are those incredible power displays (made more difficult by size, distance, use against Force-users, etc., and he's got more examples), but they'd definitely come in handy here, even on a smaller scale against some non-Force-users.
And yeah yeah, I know that Tycho/Gavin aren't a pair of stormtroopers stationed on Tatooine. But first of all, it's Luke Skywalker. He pulled that stuff off capital ship-sized against one of the other most powerful Force-users ever. Even if he's concentrated on flying he's going to be able to maintain something there, especially with Han Solo helping out by zipping around at the same time. And second, even if he used the absolute easiest described effect of the ability...causing momentary misperceptions or brief visible phenomena to the other individuals...it'd still be a big deal in a battle here where your life depends on perfect speed and precision. Which I suppose is still some variation of 3a, but it's an easy transition to 3b-- the ability to dim a target's senses. Again, in a battle where so much, perhaps even one's entire particular flying style, relies on keen perception, that'd cause major problems.
For 3c, we'll take a download off of Jaina's datapad-- except not really, since Luke's been doing this kind of thing since flying the Falcon by himself with his mind, and even goes on to do the infamous B-wing thing concurrently in the same book. Telekinesis. I bring up Jaina here because of the particular way she does it on Tenupe-- Force-shoving the AirStraeker squadrons together, yes, but also batting the control stick out of a pilot's hands with only the flick of a finger.
I should probably also clarify that I'm not arguing that Luke is going to smash Tycho/Gavin into each other with a wave of his hand. Even though...well, it is conceivable. But again, it's just the sheer fact that it's possible for Luke to use telekinesis, however so slight, to interfere with his opponent's fighters and controls. Or to cause a mistake or misperception. Or...you know, I'll even add in a 3d (as funny as that sounds outloud)-- Luke uses another of his bajillion powers to do something to give him and Han an advantage here.
But the point is that they are advantages, and they come from many angles, and they're really rather undefendable. Kind of like me with Zooks' mom. Just kidding.
The "Is KenKenobi really using Corran Horn as an example?" Argument
Yeah, I know. Pause for laughter. At least it isn't Thon.
But it is a good way to gain some added perspective in this matchup, as Corran Horn faced off against both Gavin and Tycho in the same conflict flying undercover at Xa Fel (even meeting Ooryl inbetween, though he had some help there).
Having left the Academy (the Jeedai one), Corran dusts off the Force and expands his senses as Rogue Squadron begins to engage him. We'll start with Gavin, since that's simpler, pun intended.
Gavin dropped in behind me and I read him like data streaming across a wide-screened datapad.
--Page 410, I, Jedi
Cue three more sentences where Corran rolls out, hits him with an ion blast, and moves on to Ooryl. Pretty simple-- Darklighter's good, Darklighter's great, but his "mental energy" is described as a simple "narrowing blade."
Of course then we're provided with the famous box description of Tycho's Speedy Gonzalez mind. Corran obviously survives, though, continually gaining impressions and sensing focus and emotions whilst always analyzing Celchu's mental processes.
For Luke, this is immediately a major extension of part of one of the second argument. If Corran can get such a helmet up in dogfighting these guys by analyzing them through the Force, then there's further proof of its effectiveness in practice, and against these specific pilots. If Gavin can be read so clearly, Luke's ability to counter and overcome enemy tactics with Han is going to be that much more dynamic. Plus, going back to the first argument, it's going to make Luke an even more difficult exhaust-port of a target to hit.
I suppose I should note that this is before Gavin becomes Rogue Leader, and a handful of years before Tycho's initial retirement before the Yuuzhan Vong War. But it's really just a note for note's sake, since A.) other than Gavin perhaps streamlining his decision-making, it's highly unlikely that they've somehow overhauled their entire process of thought for flight, and B.) this isn't Corran Horn...it's Luke Skywalker. Even if you threw some Force-sensitivity with the added speed in there he could still get a direct feed.
Han of course benefits from the major tactical advantage given Luke, translated into their own coordinated battle plan. Otherwise, I think Zooks said it best-- "Tycho's accuracy is otherworldly but Han's evasion is too, so skills make this a difficult matchup." Or, to put it another way, Han matches the Speedy Gonzalez of Tycho's mind with his own hedgehog of Sonic proportions. And while he's got a teammate who can pick that up in the opponent, he remains just as characteristically unpredictable to them.
The "You want to date my sister?" Argument
Well I was planning to describe here how Luke/Han have just wicked cohesion, but then this is also turning out a little bit longer than I'd planned. So I'll refrain from an at-length discussion.
Basically, as touched on above, Luke's Force skills give the trump an advantage in anticipating enemy manuevers/tactics and formulating and executing more effective ones of their own. He can get added reads and a jump on his opponents, and also sense Han in his coordination-- his sphere of perception goes beyond visuals and computers, and to the battle overall.
Then fresh off of the whole mental process thing, I was also going to note how Luke and Han have one of the deepest bonds...well, ever. "Aw, cute," you say. Well, no, they were just on the opposite sides of a civil war for a bit. Kind of. But I guess it is sentimental. Anyways, point is, these guys have been going strong side-by-side for over 40 years-- Tycho and Gavin were only together a little over a decade.
Course they were flying in Rogue Squadron through that time. But Skywalker/Solo know each other better, more intimately (shut up slash isn't allowed here). They know how the other makes decisions and how to immediately make them together-- and not just in the realm of space combat, but in any and every situation. That type of refined split-second adaptability and consistent problem-solving runs beyond flying experience to give them...well, wicked cohesion.
I guess that ended up slightly at-length.
The "What's in a name?" Argument
I thought this one up after typing the last paragraph. Really the title of it was just too tempting to pass up. I'd actually thought about that part before. Plus there was a quote earlier in this thread about this that stuck in my head.
Really, how do you say no to a team of Skywalker/Solo? This is Star Wars.
But, yeah...there you go.
Inty, I don't know if you're open to changing your decision, Kypt, I don't know if you've made up your mind yet, and Zooks, I don't know if you'll change your decision after the joke about your mom, but there's the something. And there should be rehab for Draft Argumentation.
Or just for having friends like you guys.
I keed, I keed.
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Kyptastic
Title: Manager Emeritus
SWD Co-Commish
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
6/21 2:34am
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Hmm, tough decision. But Ken's arguments have swayed me. In any case, Luke by LotF is by far the best pilot in this draft.
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Valar Morghulis
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/22 5:58pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
- Date Edited:
6/22 6:01pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
KenKenobi
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Awesome.
Oh, and that should say "Who's taking Red Five," not Rogue Five. Since it's supposed to be Luke, not Gavin.
But yeah. I'm just glad somebody else even read any of that.
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DarthIntegral
Title: Manager
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Date Posted:
6/23 11:16am
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Gavin forfeit draws Fel TRUMP Janson (prep by Hobbie)
Luke forfeit draws Nial Declann
Janson forfeit draws Saesee Tiin
Team Rufio (1) vs. Ko He shin (2)
We move on to the non-force now and call NF@
Kyle Katarn TRUMPED with Boba Fett vs. Durge (Prepared by Judder Page)
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halibut gave me 15 respect points
I think he's just trying to bribe his way towards victory in Forum Feud
Sey's big brother
"Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Suzuki_Akira
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/23 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Kyle, lolwut
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KenKenobi
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
6/23 7:49pm
Subject:
RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
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Luke forfeit draws Nial Declann
lol.
Which means...where in the world is Vader Sandiego?
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