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Author	Topic: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
DarthIntegral Title: Rebel Chief: SWC & Arena Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/12 9:34am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	I don't believe so ... through the magic of trumping, Talon had an extra two characters survive individual battles. -----signature----- The Acolytes of Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/star_wars_community/b10012/28369757 Champions of the Force "Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/12 12:32pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Well I think the big thing is Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon (not Tarkin, I dropped him). Both of them are top strategists and know that the big thing in this battle is Luke. I am sure that Turr, Steele and Jagged can take out Fel and Han. Steele is near if not better then Fel, and although I think Han is under-rated I think Jagged and Turr are more then enough to take Han. This would probably allow Lumiya to leave this battle and enter the fight in the Star-Destoryer, evening up the odds. I really see the Jedi going after each other and Kir and Jango against Boba. As good as Boba is he isn't going to bust this. Kir is one of the most highly trained warriors the Empire has ever created, even able to deflect blaster bolts. So when hopefully when my players win the dog-fight they will be able to help out even more, especially Jag, who has been shown to take out Jedi in 1-1 battles. So provided that Luke doesn't destroy my team instantly and Thrawn and Pellaeon make a good plan, they should be able to win this, although with Luke there it's always a wild card. -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/12 5:53pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/12 6:06pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Alright, let's see how we can do this here. It ended up being a little long considering all the different components that make this up, and the the fact that this is the first team battle for this kind of thing. So I did make a little summary at the bottom for convenience. Anyway... Defending the Strategists: Luke, Ulic, Kyp, Boba Fett vs. Sids, Caeds, Jango Fett, Kanos Yeah. Luke vs. Sids, we've seen that before-- and that's with Sids in his prime, and Luke far from. He goes on the offensive for one frame and then cuts his hand off, at speeds Leia could only see as movements of pure Force energy. Now, Caedus would prove to be an asset for the Emperor's New Groove for sure, but he'd have his hands full dueling Ulic alone-- who's one of the few who could ever even hope to match him in pure combat skills, having also used a lightsaber without use of the Force, and experience such as defeating Mandalore without a lightsaber, after already fighting him him and his basilisk, on chains over Harkul on Kuar. With Kyp Durron involved, even his power advantage is negated-- and combined with the fact that one of the strategists (Mara) has already done exactly this (planned out a duel against Jacen to the point of almost winning short of an illusion tactic)...it's clear the top two competitors for ENG aren't going to last long. Boba Fett's familiarity with his father only furthers his ability to hold he and Kanos off-- the guy uses a gazillion weapons, including a lightsaber, but isn't even dependent on them, ravaging through a gazillion beings and giving combat pointers to Jedi and...yeah, I won't go on. Plus, he only has to fight them for as long as it's needed for Luke/Ulic/Kyp to dispatch someone to make it an even fight. In fact, Luke-Sids and Caedus-Ulic could pair up initially to allow Kyp to address that situation, before returning to take care of the other two. With Fett at their back. In other words, there's really no combination here where ENG comes out on top-- it'd take Sids/Caedus on Luke alone to take him out, and even that wild scenario leaves Jango and Kanos to deal with Ulic Qel-Droma, Kyp Durron, and Boba Fett coming at them. The fact that these four would be able to fight more as a unit as well is just icing on the cake. In Space: Fel, Solo vs. Stele, Phennir, Jag, Lumiya Let's just hyperspace to worst case scenario, in this case-- ENG's pilots boom boom Fel and Solo and then immediately get inside the Star Destroyer to provide support. Of course, that's not going to happen, given both's familiarity with the other pilots, as well as their own connection from the Academy to Axxila. And their ridiculous combined skill and experience. And the fact that they're Soontir Fel and Han Solo. OG's. Not to mention testing whether Jag is a stickler for orders enough to kill his own father along with Jaina's. Now, I don't like using that argument (otherwise how is a light side team going to defeat another light side team?), but Jag already doesn't fit on his team-- which is an argument that can definitely be used, and makes him even more likely to fight for the other side. And Fel/Solo/Fel would clean through the other three. But anyway, if only for the sake of argument...let's just say suddenly ENG adds Lumiya to the fray, and a few more non-Force personnel. Does the fight inside the Star Destroyer suddenly swing from certain victory for Team Rufio to edge for the ENG? Not really, considering... Strategists: Leia/Mara and Thrawn/Pellaeon Yeah, that's two more Jedi. And not just any Jedi, but Luke's sister and wife-- lol @ trying to get through him to kill them. Not only can they jump in to provide support hand-to-hand when needed, or to just end things quicker-- they bring several more advantages to the table, which I'll simply list rather than combine everything into a giant paragraph. --Leia's Battle Meditation: this can come incredibly in handy in aiding in the space battle, considering only Stele could even hope to combat it-- and it only furthers Jag's propensity to join his father and Han. Which, oh yeah, her husband's out there as extra incentive. --Leia's Force Harmony: when combined with Luke, it completely cut off Palps from his power. Additionally, "it can act as a shield against the powers of the dark side" (TotJ Sourcebook, pg. 63)-- which, in support of Luke/Ulic/Kyp and her and Mara against the dark siders, once again gives them quite an advantage. --Mara's experience: half of her life was training with Palps, as well with and surpassing the Royal Guard like Kanos. She's fought Lumiya twice (and would've killed her had not the Meditation Sphere interfered), and again Jacen, where she planned and guided the fight to completely utilize her strengths whilst exploiting his weaknesses. Easily the strategist that's going to know best how to plan the fight. --Mara and Leia's Mind Meld: together, along with Luke/Kyp already, mind meld's brought into the group. Considering the amount of experience everyone already has fighting together, this simply furthers the cohesion and ability to fight in tandem. It's just a pity Kenobi couldn't be there to make it even more in sync past the point of ridiculous. Now Thrawn/Pellaeon could come up with a course of action beforehand, sure, but after that they provide nothing in the way of support like Mara and Leia-- either peripherally, as with the Force, or directly in combat themselves. In fact, Pellaeon actually provides a major cohesive gap in regards to Caedus. So... In Summary Luke Skywalker. With Ulic Qel-Droma, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade, Leia, and Boba Fett at his back. In addition to their already stellar record of fighting together, they're united through the Mind Meld. Given added protection from the powers of Sids, Caeds, and possibly Lumiya through Force Harmony. And given extensive knowledge of their opponent to formulate a plan of attack with some of the most incredible combat leaders in history. In space, Soontir Fel and Han Solo combine to delay their enemy pilots from getting inside the SSD. Aided by Leia's Battle Meditation, which can be even more overpowering since she can concentrate specifically on it as a strategist, suddenly the fight isn't so one-sided-- and Jag is more likely to join his father, shifting even that aspect of the battle to a victory. Finally, we can break this down conventially...err, kind of conventially-- Power: Five Force-users on two, maybe three. One of the five is Luke Skywalker. Skill: --Force: Again, no brainer. --Starfighter: Fel and Han individually are skillhouses (see what I did there?), even if their opponents all together combine for an advantage. --Hand-to-Hand: This basically ends up like the Force category, save Jango and Kanos add their presence, with perhaps Stele and others coming into play as well Jag's experience with Rar isn't going to do him much good against the caliber of those he'd be up against here, however). Of course Boba Fett, who's absolutely ridiculous here, is then also added to the ranks of the Jedi. Experience: Not only does Team Rufio have more of it, but this is exactly their kind of battle-- from things like Kr during the Dark Nest to the Battle of Coruscant over 4000 years earlier. Cohesion: Pellaeon wants to kill Caedus. Caedus succeeded in killing Pellaeon. Jag definitely doesn't fit in with the likes of Caedus and Lumiya (single-minded mission to kill Lumiya's little pet Rar, anyone?), where he certainly does with his own father as well as Han/Leia (and even Luke/Mara, circa LotF). For us, it's the Big Three. Plus Mara and Kyp. Fett and Fel have worked with many of them extensively as well, especially by LotF, and Ulic should fit in with little problem-- especially with a strong Mind Meld and Battle Meditation going on, and surrounded in an aura of light side energy. So, all of that. Plus that little bubble that says "Leia's intensity continues to unlock unexpected resources in Luke." That's Luke Skywalker. With unexpected resources. Game, Set, Match. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/12 6:17pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/12 6:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Talon_Kenobi
	OK I have a question. Are the strategists involved in the fight? I always pictured them like coaches or GMs. They are not involved directly in the battle but they help make plans. I didn't think they could just jump into a fight. But if they can I really can't argue against Ken here. Maybe that is something to think of. How often do strategists actually physically fight in a novel. I mean it happens when there is no choice, but how often does that take place. I think if they don't fight in regular rounds they shouldn't in teams. I mean its not like they count as a trump. I don't know if this makes any sense, but I know what I am saying -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/12 6:30pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/12 6:31pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	ThrawnRocks posted: Also, for team battles, would it be legal to have a strategist who can defend themselves really well against the hand-to-hand team? Like sticking Grievous in as one of the strategists, and then arguing that he could fight off the hand-to-hand team? DarthIntegral posted: ... 3) The technique of who is the strategist can be a good one for defense. But, remember, if you have them as your strategist, you lose them in individual battles, and you might not have the ability to get to teams. That's what I'm going off of. Plus, it'd be kind of stupid if they just helped plan everything out and then couldn't do anything else. You are trying to kill them and their team, after all. I doubt they'd just stand there. That said, I'm going to make a sandwich. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/12 6:34pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Well I, like I said in the edit, I would just picture them in the GM box. There team dies, they just wait for them to come back for the next round. I mean it isn't like the team is going to stay dead for ever or they would be no way we could have a round robin because it would have to be sudden death elimination. That being said it seems like it was decided that they can fight -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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Aragorn327 Title: Games Manager v2.0 Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 5/12 8:18pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/12 8:19pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Aragorn327
	Pretty clear argument, but you seem to gloss over the enemy strategists. Thrawn would have access to ysalamiri and has personal knowledge/experience of/with the entire enemy team sans Ulic and Kyp. Any counter to that? -----signature----- "Question not the ways of the script, there's always a bigger fish"
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/12 9:48pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/12 9:58pm (2 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	Pretty clear argument, but you seem to gloss over the enemy strategists. Thrawn would have access to ysalamiri and has personal knowledge/experience of/with the entire enemy team sans Ulic and Kyp. Any counter to that? Yeah, I kind of sped through there, but I didn't want the thing to be too long. Still, to "counter"-- I noted that they'd be able to "could come up with a course of action beforehand," and I assumed that would include what "personal knowledge/experience" Thrawn has of some on the team. Though he really doesn't even know all that much special about them, save for perhaps Fel during their time together...especially considering his death is 9 ABY, where everyone on the team he knows is going strong a good 30 years past that point. Pellaeon actually brings more to the table in that regard. Combined then, of course Thrawn/Pellaeon in consultation with the team are going to be able to come up with a great plan. It's going to be a pretty great battle. The point was, though, not only do our strategists have more practical, detailed experience (actually having combat trained and/or directly fought these opponents before like other team members, rather than formulating a plan based off of mostly general-- and without Pellaeon, outdated-- facts), but they also bring much more to the table past that point, as listed. Whereas, aside from the planning, and perhaps extending that to issuing orders in battle, Thrawn/Pellaeon don't. Thrawn, like Pellaeon, might not perfectly mesh well with Caedus either, especially with the whole kidnapping thing. And let's not even get into the issue of giving orders to folks like Palps and Caeds. Now, ysalamiri? Sure, but unless he gets within ten meters of some of the combatants, that's not going to help with the actual battle at large. And I'd even consider that a risk, after Luke's "I'm going to hold out my hand and kill a being not in the Force with the Force" manuever. Besides, Ulic's already shown himself capable without the use of the Force-- Thrawn gets within ten meters of him, and Mitth won't know what hit him. Literally. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/13 3:09am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Is he able to set them up before hand and couldn't they just stick them in like Kanos and Jangos back packs or something? Kinda keep them hidden -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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DarthIntegral Title: Rebel Chief: SWC & Arena Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 5/13 5:21am Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Talon, you really think Palpatine is going to go for Ysalamari on the battle field? Doesn't that negate his biggest advantage? I could see Caedus going for it, but not Palpatine. -----signature----- The Acolytes of Darkness http://boards.theforce.net/star_wars_community/b10012/28369757 Champions of the Force "Faith will bring a way to the impossible"
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/13 12:36pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	This is the same Palpatine that lets himself get kidnapped repeatedly, almost dies in epic space battle, lets (or however you view it) Mace almost kill him in hope that Anakin will save him, tells the rebels where his death star is and tells them their weakness. Palpatine isn't afraid to put himself in danger. Numerous things could have went wrong on the Invisible Hand. It could have blown up in space, he could have died while crashing. But this guy would do anything to win. I am sure he wouldn't be afraid to hid somewhere until the cost is clear. I mean once Luke is out of the picture they can destroy those little Force suckers, and then Palpatine can have his power unlimited power back. I also heard a rumor that one of the stages in Tie Fighter where Vader and Steele have to save Palpatine was actually planned by Sidious and that whoever did that uses Ysalamari (however, I read this in another thread there was debate over it, and I can't remember the thread). So I am pretty sure that Sidious would not be afraid to be at a disadvantage for awhile, since he spent his entire Sith reign putting himself at a disadvantage. -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/13 2:45pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	This is the same Palpatine that lets himself get kidnapped repeatedly, almost dies in epic space battle, lets (or however you view it) Mace almost kill him in hope that Anakin will save him, tells the rebels where his death star is and tells them their weakness. Palpatine isn't afraid to put himself in danger. ... So I am pretty sure that Sidious would not be afraid to be at a disadvantage for awhile, since he spent his entire Sith reign putting himself at a disadvantage. Well, see, those are all situations where Palps isn't really at a disadvantage-- he just manipulated things to make it appear that way, where he really had an ace up his sleeve. For example, on the Invisible Hand? Sure, he looks kidnapped...but everyone on that ship is on his side. If he didn't think he was going to survive, all he has to do is something like lower his voice to Sidious level and tell Grievous via comlink not to jettison the escape pods and let the Chancellor escape. Telling the Rebels all about the DSII? "It's a trap!" I skipped over the Mace situation because of all of the complexities that brings along, but...just look again at the DE scan where Luke and Leia cut him off from his power-- "You're both wasting your time! I can control the dark side of the Force! My Force storm is reducing your Rebel fleet to dust! All of your friends will die! Go ahead! Try any stupid tricks you want..." His overconfidence is his weakness. Always has been. Because in any situation Palps has been in, he's had at least his power to rely on-- and it's a power he thinks will always succeed, whether it be against Yoda or the Alliance Fleet or the Skywalker twins. So I really, really really doubt Palps is gonna give that up just to put the other team at a disadvantage. It's really a double-edged sword that runs him through much more than his opponents. I also heard a rumor that one of the stages in Tie Fighter where Vader and Steele have to save Palpatine was actually planned by Sidious and that whoever did that uses Ysalamari (however, I read this in another thread there was debate over it, and I can't remember the thread). So I am pretty sure that Sidious would not be afraid to be at a disadvantage for awhile, since he spent his entire Sith reign putting himself at a disadvantage. Yeah, I remember that. It's never actually confirmed that Zaarin uses ysalamiri in his kidnapping, but it was proposed as one way to account for how Palps could've been legit subdued and kidnapped without simply overpowering his captors. Then there is, like you said, the idea that it wasn't legit and instead staged as a mission for Stele-- though that means there wouldn't need to be ysalamiri involved to kidnap him. In other words, by these theories, if Palps was willing, there's no ysalamiri-- if Palps wasn't willing, it's because there was ysalamiri. Which means he never willing put himself at that disadvantage here. Oh, and I really doubt Palps would just up and hide, for any number of reasons-- and I doubt even more that he'd allow folks like Caeds and Thrawn to run around immune to him in the meantime. Definitely not his style. And this has already become yet along long reply. But I'll be Kesseled if you don't make this ridiculously fun, Talon. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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Nichtganz Registered: Jul '07	Date Posted: 5/13 2:54pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Yuck, someone sourced dark empire. That's like being straight and sleeping with another man. -----signature----- Ib'tuur jatne tuur ash'ad kyr'amur.
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KenKenobi Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 5/13 3:03pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway] - Date Edited: 5/13 3:03pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KenKenobi
	I only sourced it to prove how flawed he is compared to real Sith like Tulak Hord. -----signature----- "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."
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Talon_Kenobi Registered: Sep '03	Date Posted: 5/13 3:38pm Subject: RE: Third Installment of the 2007 Jedi Draft [USWD Trial Underway]
	Tulak Hord would own them all with his saber skills Sure Sidious had everyone on the Invisible Hand, but what about everyone outside the Invisible Hand. There is know way for him to know that the Invisible Hand would not be shot at, heck it almost blew up there. But the biggest thing that you said actually helps prove my point, Palpatines over-confidence. He might view this as the perfect was to get rid of Luke Skywalker. He has fought him enough to know what it will take to kill him, and that taking away his strongest point the force is that. He would probably try to lay a trap inside the Star Destroyer involving the Ysalarmi (or however it is spelt). Heck have Kir Kanos waiting for him, and Luke is done without the aid of the force. Finally Kanos will have his revenge that he promised so many years ago. -----signature----- Draft Team: Kenobi's Talons Starfighter Draft winner The 3.5th Southern Nevada Jedi Draft Winner
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