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Author	Topic: Ancient Classics of World Literature (currently discussing "Canterbury Tales") UP FOR ADOPTION!!
Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 3/18/05 11:54am Subject: Ancient Classics of World Literature (currently discussing "Canterbury Tales") UP FOR ADOPTION!! - Date Edited: 5/19 1:14pm (42 edits total) Edited By: NYCitygurl
	All ancient books which have once been called sacred by man, will have their lasting place in the history of mankind, and those who possess the courage, the perseverance, and the self-denial of the true miner, and of the true scholar, will find even in the darkest and dustiest shafts what they are seeking for,--real nuggets of thought, and precious jewels of faith and hope. -- Max Müller, Introduction to the Upanishads Vol. II. There's frequent discussion hereabouts of books, comics, music, movies and television. Somewhat more limited is our discussion of the visual arts. One thing that we don't discuss often is the really old literature, stuff from before the time of the novel. Hence this thread. Over the weeks and months I'm going to try to discuss an array of literature ranging from stuff written four thousand years ago up until about 1720 and the birth of what we now know as the novel. I'll also recommend particular translations or editions when necessary. Of course, that kind of thing is somewhat subjective, so feel free to disagree with me. I'll also try to give dates, but that's difficult, as much of what I'll be talking about existed in an oral tradition for generations, sometimes centuries, before it was ever written down, and many were revised even after they were written, often to better suit the aesthetic and religious sensibilities of the time -- for example, the grafting of some Christian values into Beowulf. If I give a date, it will usually correspond to the oldest known manuscript of the particular text, and you should understand that that story was often around long before that. Also bear in mind that while an enthusiast, I am no scholar, and may make mistakes. I apologize for any that I do make. And so, without further ado: Beowulf author unknown written c. 800 C.E. (probably told for two or three centuries before that) Recommended translation: My favorite translation is E. Talbot Donaldson's prose translation; because he's translating into prose, he's not trying to rearrange the Old English poetry into new English poetry, and so the translation is quite literal and faithful. If you want a verse translation, go for Howell D. Chickering's. I cannot recommend Seamus Heaney's translation. Heaney is a very fine Irish poet -- winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature in '95 -- and his adaptation of Beowulf is quite pleasant and pretty. Unfortunately, Old English and Beowulf were not pleasant and pretty, and Beowulf is not Irish, and so while this adaptation reads well on its own, it really has not much to do with the original, and is a pretty unfaithful translation. There have been tons of modern adaptations as well, from John Gardner's classic Grendel, to Michael Crichton's popular Eaters of the Dead, to Parke Godwin's more historically based The Tower of Beowulf. Beowulf is probably the most popular ancient epic in the English world, and the one you're most likely to run into at any age in school. A fine tale of heroism and duty, it sheds light on a dark time and illuminates the values of a culture long dead. Featuring monsters, dragons, heroes and cowards and lots of big swords, this is a fine introduction to ye olde epic. The story opens with a young Beowulf setting out for Denmark, to King Hrothgar's hall of Heorot, to help with their monster troubles and while so doing to make a name for himself. He succeeds, eventually becomes king of his own people, and more than fifty years later has to deal with a dragon threatening his own lands, and the whole thing ends on a perfect elegiac note. Anyone read it? What do you think of it? Previous Topics: Beowulf The Bible The Kalevala The Epic of Giglamesh The Qur'an The Ramayana The Anatomy of Melancholy Táin bó Cuailnge The Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion one discussion two The Iliad The Tale of Genji The Egyptian Book of the Dead The 1001 Arabian NightsThe Art of War Aesop's Fables Chaireas and Callirhoe The Upanishads Tao Te Ching The I Ching The History of the Peloponnesian War Bhagavad Gita Prometheus Bound Oedipus the King Medea Euclid's Elements Commentarii de Bello Gallico The City of God Plato's Republic Enheduanna's hymns Sappho's poetry The Maxims of Ptahhotep Five Classics Ovid's Metamorphoses The Canterbury Tales -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Dante_Glass Registered: Apr '04	Date Posted: 3/18/05 12:23pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	I read it a while back, very classic. Its great for studying the concept of the Hero. -----signature----- Sweet Peanuts of Stupendification, its good to be Canadian!
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Rogue1-and-a-half Title: Manager: Amphitheatre Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 3/18/05 2:09pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	I haven't read Beowulf, but I'll pop in here when you're talking about something I have read. -----signature----- All they found of the Duchesse d'Alencon was her head.
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OBI-BEN-KENOBI Registered: Mar '04	Date Posted: 3/18/05 4:16pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	I read it about 4 months ago. It was alright. I bet I would've liked it more had I not been forced to read it. About a month ago my friend found a monster called Grendel in a free MMORPG. -----signature----- FOUNDER of the Comic book draft "Dames are like Mustard: they taste great on a sandwich. But when you're not eating a sandwich... they just sit there in the fridge... on a shelf... in a jar... labeled... Mustard. "
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Vaderbait Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 3/19/05 8:07am Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	I read the translation by Seamus Heany or however you spell his name, it's beena while. I liked it, Beowulf is one of my favorite stories of all time, and I wish they'd turn it into a movie that's not that godawful Eaters of the Dead.
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 3/19/05 8:12am Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	Robert Zemeckis is making a film version with a script by Neil Gaiman. It will obviously have an Alan Silvestri score. It should be good. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Darth-Kevin-Thomas Registered: Sep '02	Date Posted: 3/19/05 9:22am Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	Robert Zemeckis is making a film version with a script by Neil Gaiman. It will obviously have an Alan Silvestri score. It should be good. I've yet to hear about this one but i have heard of a differnt version of this movie but i'll have to track down the link. A version written by neil Gaiman would be so cool. I can't wait to hear the specs on this one.... The book on the other hand. I've read it a few times and its fantastic. I wrote an essay about it and how it reflected religous world veiws of that time and era. There is a lot of religious symbolism and its really interesting. I also enjoy Michael Crichtons "Version" of the book. Although i think im only one person that does. Man, i want to go back and read it again rummeges through book shelf dkt -----signature----- If I could be anything, I'd be a machine gun, becuase everytime I see you, I'm sorry I don't own one.
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 3/26/05 3:48pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing Beowulf)
	Wow. If Beowulf elicited that little discussion, I can't wait until we got to some of the really obscure or unpopular titles. . . However, I'm going to be gone for a few days, so I picked one for this week that people always have an opinion on. . . The Bible multiple authors written: Oh, boy. . . The latest books in the Tanakh were probably written about 400 BCE; it was pretty much complete by 130 BCE and was formally compiled and closed in 90 CE. The New Testament was written c. 30-100 CE, and was formally compiled and closed in 367 CE. Recommended translations: For the Tanakh/Old Testament, I actually recommend two readings: one Jewish translation, maybe the JPS, and the King James. The reason for this is that not only is the sequencing of the books different in the Jewish and Christian traditions, but many Christian translations are based on a sometimes inaccurate Greek translation from the Hebrew rather than on the original Hebrew itself, so there are remarkable differences. For the New Testament, I recommend the King James, which is not only incredibly accurate considering scholarly methods when it was written, but is also an English language classic in its own right. With parts dating back more than 1400 years, the Bible is undisputably one of the most read and most influential books in the world. An anthology of stories, histories, census information, poems, biographies, letters, genealogies and more, written by people often thought divinely inspired, this is the book that most of the leaders and many of the people in the western world live by (or think they live by or say they live by). There's something in here for everyone, whether or not you regard it as fact or truth; for lovers of fiction, there're plenty of interesting stories; there's lots of poetry; and, in the Tanakh at least, it's one of the few ancient historical documents in the world that chronicle the defeats and losses of the writers as well as their victories. If you haven't read the Bible, I think that whether or not you're a Jew or a Christian, as an educated, intelligent, literate member of this society, there's really almost no excuse for you not to have read this book or at least significant portions of it. If you do consider yourself Jewish or Christian, there's even less excuse not to have read it. One of the few books that I consider "must-reads". -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Darth-Seldon Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 3/26/05 4:05pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Bible)
	I'm uncertain where I stand in regard to religion. I usually stand with science first. I suppose I should read the Bible, I just haven't gotten around to it I'm not particulary religious. Beowulf was a great epic, for it's time. I love when he goes after Grendel's mother. -Seldon -----signature----- Isaac Asimov was an innovative genius All posters are equal but some posters are more equal than others. Barack Obama & Joe Biden 2008
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 3/26/05 4:11pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Bible)
	Yes, I think anyone who enjoys, say, Robert E. Howard would probably enjoy Beowulf as well. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Rogue1-and-a-half Title: Manager: Amphitheatre Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 3/26/05 9:09pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Bible)
	HEre's an article I wrote about the Bible for a literature website I frequent. The Bible remains one of the most influential books ever penned. It is a founding cornerstone of, not one, not even two, but of three of the world’s most influential and widespread religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam). The offshoots from these religions can’t even begin to be numbered (ranging from such interesting groups as the Mormons to wackos like David Koresh). It has been said, in fact, that no one can truly understand the world they live in, unless they’ve read the Bible. I tend to agree. As well as being an important cultural touchstone, however, the Bible, especially the King James Version, stands as one of the greatest artistic achievements of all time. From a time that also produced Shakespeare and many other great authors, the King James Version stands head and shoulders above all others for evoking a mystique and emotion through its poetry. When releasing a list of the books that one has to read, under the title Life Time Reading Plan, Clifton Fadiman, famed literary critic for the New York Times, opened with this salvo: It is to be presumed that anyone perusing this list will already own and be intimately familiar with The Bible. Cultural touchstone? Check. Literary and artistic achievement? Check. The absolute starting point for anyone interested in literature? Check. The Bible is a massive book, easily the longest on my top eleven list. So, I’ll be taking a much more structured approach in this review than I usually do. Because, frankly, if I don’t have some kind of framework to hang my hat on, I’ll just get lost and ramble for about fifty pages. And no one wants that, trust me. The Books of the Law From the opening pages of the Bible, the fascinating characters and stories emerge with stunning clarity. The stories of Jacob, Esau, Abraham, Joseph (especially Joseph!) and Moses emerge in true epic fashion, spun out in brilliant prose. It’s epic storytelling at its best, rivalry, betrayal, greed, etc. And this is just starting. The Books of History In the books of history, however, things really swing into gear. From the war stories of Joshua and Judges to the political intrigue of Samuel’s books and the books of the Kings, there’s bloodshed aplenty, brilliantly and beautifully rendered. Who can forget the left handed Ehud assassinating a rival king, disguised as, essentially, a delivery man? Or David’s fugitive years with the psychopathic Saul on his trail? Or David’s ensuing struggles within his own house, via Absalom, Amnon, etc? The iconic Samson, early women’s libber Deborah, Jael, another female heroine, who gets her mention by virtue of having nailed a man’s head to the ground. Struggles for ascension, suicides, coups, massacres, these abound in the books of history, outdoing any but the most pumped up novels. Truly astounding. The Books of Poetry With the books of poetry, we kick into extreme genius. The book of Job remains one of the premier literary works of all time, standing as a stunning testament to the nature of suffering and the questions that each individual must wrestle with. Interestingly, despite the religious nature of the Bible, Job doesn’t sugar coat suffering or even explain at all why the titular character goes through what he does. With brilliant debates and hilarious sarcasm (“There is little doubt that ye are the people and that wisdom will die with you,” Job snaps at his comforters at one point after a particularly scathing tongue lashing), Job remains perhaps the most quotable book of the Bible. Ecclesiastes is a similarly stunning book to those who think the Bible is simply full of Christian propaganda. It’s a stunning look into the abyss, being essentially a tract on Theistic Nihlism. Written by Solomon, the wealthy and wise king of Israel, it reaches the conclusion again and again that everything is “vanity,” useless, needless. In the end, you will die and then what happens to what you’ve amassed for yourself? Nature, wealth, relationships, all vanity, all pointless. Education? Vanity. Beauty? Vanity. Money? Vanity. A stunning and incredible look at life without hope. Only in God, can any slight hope be seen to glimmer. In Proverbs, wisdom is dispensed with a droll air (especially in the final chapters where the writer muses on things he doesn’t understand) and a striking grasp of common sense. Dealing with matters from the incredibly serious (adultery, political intrigue, etc) to the humorously mundane (Given to overeating? Cut your throat, the author advises in an especially tongue in cheek section). After Job, the most quotable book of the Bible with brilliant metaphors, fantastic comparisons and some incredibly visceral language. Psalms, the longest book of the Bible, contains 150 brilliantly poetic pieces, ranging from the incredibly short (two verses) to the massively long (Psalm 119, the longest chapter in the Bible). Featuring every emotion in the book, from despair to euphoria and everything in between, the Psalms is the quintessential book for the struggling individual, seeking to find expression in the extremes of emotion. A brilliant book. Then there’s Song of Solomon which always cracks up people who aren’t familiar with it the first time they read it. Erotic poetry? In the Bible? Mmhmm. Very erotic. The Books of Prophecy And then come the prophets, those fiery old Testament figures who raged and railed against all the things that we still have to rail against today. Jeremiah, who focused on immoral political alliances (an issue still important today), Isaiah, who attacks those hypocritical religious figures (an issue still important today). And my favorite: Amos, who attacks the growing disparity between the wealthy and the poor. (A problem we most definitely still face today). With powerful imagery and stirring speeches, the prophets give God’s message to the world. Some of the books add to the interest with the stories of the prophets themselves and their persecution by the masses (Jeremiah is the most historically oriented). Some books feature psychedelic visions (Ezekiel’s vision of the Wheel within the Wheel is the most famous, but it’s actually tame compared to some of Daniel’s and Zechariah’s visions). Some books are massive. Others a single chapter. Many feature amusing illustrations and analogies (Isaiah strolls around in his underwear for a whole year at one point and Amos addresses part of his diatribe to the cows of the wealthy ranch owners, who, he claims, eat better than most of the poor people.) The prophets are entertaining, thought provoking and, as with the rest of the Bible, beautifully written. The Gospels Kicking off the New Testament, the four books about the life and death of Jesus are magnificent, poetic, gorgeous. From the teachings of Jesus (and if you read them again, really read them, you’ll see that, frankly, they are still just as radical today as they were then) to the political intrigue surrounding his death, excellent journalism with a healthy dose of emotion packed in. The Acts of the Apostles Following the growth of the early church, this is a fascinating book. Filled with colorful characters, some familiar from the Gospels, some brand new, this is an epic book filled with conflict both from outside the church and with in. Especially interesting is the clash between the traditional Jews and those who wanted to do away with the law. Why do we have the faith we do have? This book tells us. The Epistles The bulk of these are, of course, by Paul, but a handful of other authors contribute (Peter, Jude, James, John). They are, to a letter, fine philosophical explorations of Christianity and what it means to claim to be a Christian. Required reading for anyone interested in either being a Christian or understanding the Christian worldview. The Revelation A masterpiece of psychedelic literature, this is easily the most controversial book of the Bible and has been since the very first canonization of the books of the Bible. Visions of the future have never been so gruesome, dark, bloody or entertaining to read. Debates still rage to this day about what the book is really about. Are the events yet to happen? Do they refer to the persecution of the church that had already happened? Or were they legitimate prophecy that has already been fulfilled? Regardless, it’s a fascinating study and a worthy capper to one of the best books ever written. A powerful and beautiful work of literature, a profound and spiritual work of philosophy, a moving and challenging tract of faith, a riveting and suspenseful collection of stories. All this and more you can find in the Bible. Over the centuries perhaps no book as had so profound an influence on the world and on art. References to it abound in every art form worth looking at. And, if there’s any doubt about it’s status as a masterpiece, consider the most controversial film of the year thus far remains at base yet another adaptation of the gospels. A must read, if there’s ever been one. -----signature----- All they found of the Duchesse d'Alencon was her head.
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 4/3/05 3:20pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Bible)
	Excellent, excellent post, Rogue1-and-a-half. I wish more people would chime in in this thread. Oh, well. Next up. . . The Kalevala compiled by Elias Lönnrot written: 1835; second edition 1849; from a much older oral tradition Recommended translation: Eino Friberg's translation is the best, although unfortunately also the most expensive; a second choice is Francis P. Magoun's excellent prose translation, which is more literal than other translations but obviously loses most of the poetry. Keith Bosley's translation is also fine. The Kalevala is one of my very favorite of the epics. Whereas some of the Norse and Icelandic epics and sagas bore me and annoy me, The Kalevala is engaging and interesting all the way through. About 150 years ago, Finnish scholar Elias Lönnrot travelled around Finland collecting these songs/poems from old men who recited them from memory, and then compiled a good number of them into this coherent epic. The word Kalevala means "Land of Heroes" and that's apt: this work is beautiful, funny and full of adventure and memorable characters; deceptively easy to read, it will stay with you long after you've read it; I've seen it compared frequently to Homer's works and yes, it is that good. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Chancellor_Ewok Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 4/3/05 5:21pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Kalevala)
	The Kalaval was one of Tolkien's inspirations for writing Lord of the Rings. Apparently he really loved the Finnish language and used it as a basis for the Elven languages. -----signature----- For more information about the crack spider's bitch contact the Canadian Wildlife Service in Ottawa. I robbed the second largest bank in France using only a ballpoint pen I killed a man with this thumb.
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 4/3/05 5:26pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Kalevala)
	Yes, Tolkien is about a million times more interesting when you realize just how much he stole from EVERYWHERE. He rips off everything from ancient myths, epics and languages to more modern literature such as Dracula, which I can only assume he loved, given how much of it made it into LOTR. (Of course, Dracula is chock full of stuff stolen or practically downright plagiarized from other sources as well -- read some unabridged Dumas and then try reading Stoker again, and you'll see chunks of Dracula are lifted straight out of the older novels. . .) -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Chancellor_Ewok Registered: Nov '04	Date Posted: 4/3/05 5:35pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Kalevala)
	I know what you mean. I think he based Faramir off of a character in Wagner's Ring Cycle and his god system as explained in The Silmarillion smacked of both Christianity and Greco-Roman mythology at the same time. -----signature----- For more information about the crack spider's bitch contact the Canadian Wildlife Service in Ottawa. I robbed the second largest bank in France using only a ballpoint pen I killed a man with this thumb.
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Child_of_the_Sith Registered: Mar '05	Date Posted: 4/3/05 5:36pm Subject: RE: Classics of World Literature (currently discussing The Kalevala)
	I did not know that the Kalevala had been written down... Now I have to read it. I think that no matter what media you talk about, all of it has been plagarized (sp) from somewhere else. It would be extremly hard not to write a book, screenplay, etc. without drawing on what you had read or watched in childhood. The media influences writing styles and topics, so I doubt very many books are COMPLETELY original. -----signature----- ~I just can’t look its killing me and taking control Jealousy, turning saints into the sea Swimming through sick lullabies Choking on your alibis Russell is mine
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