| Author |
Topic:
Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: the JKR-SVA court decision
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 12:45pm
Subject:
Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: the JKR-SVA court decision
- Date Edited:
9/9 7:11am (268 edits total)
Edited By:
Zaz
|
After some discussion with Boogie, we decided to open a new thread for this, and leave the Official Thread Harry Potter Thread for movie and book news.
This is a clue-solving thread. JKR is a past mistress of the old red herring, but she says you can solve the mysteries of the plot by careful reading of the text. So, is she telling the truth? She's none too reliable in some ways.
An example: In just about every book, Harry is convinced someone is doing something nefarious, and he always gets the wrong person: Snape in Book I, Malfoy in Book 2, Sirius in Book 3, and so forth. So in Book 6, nobody's falling for it; nobody believes Harry's right, including the audience. Except he is right. Twice. Very tricky, that. An author who enjoys defeating the audience's expectations in this way is an author that will play games with the plot.
If you have ever reread the books, you will notice that things that seem innocuous at the time become important later. So this thread is a chapter-by-chapter analysis of things that might tell us what's going to happen.
So: Book One: "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's (Sorcerer's in the States) Stone:
Chapter One: "The Boy Who Lived"
We are introduced to the Dursleys, who are sketched in as a bully (Vernon) and a prying spy (Petunia)
Note #1: Petunia is supposed not to have met her sister 'for several years' and they are estranged. Yet she knows Harry's proper name and age, and Harry is just over a year old.
Note #2: Page 14: Conversation between McGonnagall and Dumbledore: He is, she says, 'too noble' to use Dark Magic as Voldemort does. Dumbledore doesn't really respond to this. Hmmm.
Note #3: Page 15: Dumbledore either doesn't know why Harry survived at this point, or he won't tell McGonagall the truth.
Note #4, Page 15: Dumbledore's 'odd watch' with planets for hands.
Note #5: Page 16: Hagrid borrowed the motor bike from Sirius Black--so at this time, no suspicion attached to Sirius in the deaths of Harry's parents, despite the fact he is supposed to be their secret-keeper. Hagrid also extracted Harry from the ruins of the house in Godric's Hollow. Here's the source of the 'lost day' dispute: Where has the child been prior to the trip with Hagrid? Why is McGonagall in Privet Drive? How does Dumbledore know what happened in Godric's Hollow?
Note #6: Page 17: McGonagall asks Dumbledore if he couldn't do something about the scar on Harry's forehead. Dumbledore refuses, saying 'scars can come in useful.' He then distracts McGonagall with a story about a scar he has on his left knee that is 'a perfect map of the London Underground.'
Any others?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 12:58pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
Good idea for a thread. I haven't picked the books apart to THIS degree, but I applaud the depth of your fandom. 
-----signature-----
For more information about the crack spider's bitch contact the Canadian Wildlife Service in Ottawa.
I robbed the second largest bank in France using only a ballpoint pen
I killed a man with this thumb.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Boba_Fett_123
Registered:
Aug '02
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 4:47pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
|
This thread is sure to become very interesting. Great idea.
-----signature-----
EUDF Reserves
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
TheBoogieMan
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 9:27pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
I'm going to have a lot of fun with this thread. 
Regarding the points you made, Zaz:
Note #1: I think this emphasises that although Petunia wants as little to do with Lily and Harry, she still keeps careful track of them as she "knows more than she lets on", as alluded to in books five and six.
Note #2: This forshadows the theme of "our choices make us what we are", I think. Dumbledore could have as much raw power as Voldemort, but he choses not to.
Note #5: This is very interesting, and quite crucial. When we have an exact timeline of events that night, we will know many answers to the books that we currently do not know. This is how the lexicon sets the events out:
circa October 24
The Fidelius Charm is cast to hide the Potters, with Peter Pettigrew acting as Secret Keeper
Dumbledore had offered to be secret keeper, but James and Lily had refused, planning to go with Sirius Black instead - but switching to Pettigrew at the last minute.
Fudge says that the Fidelius Charm was cast "barely a week" before Voldemort came after the Potters. (PA10)
October 31
Defeat of Voldemort; James and Lily Potter are killed
Voldemort attempts to kill Harry Potter after murdering his parents, but the spell rebounds onto him. Voldemort, nearly dead and without physical form, retreats into the forests of Albania where he possess the bodies of various animals to survive for the next decade, waiting. Hagrid, on Dumbledore's orders, goes to Godric's Hollow to rescue baby Harry from the ruins of the house. (PS1)
circa November 1
Peter Pettigrew fakes his own death, killing twelve Muggles in the process. Sirius Black is arrested and at some point in the next few weeks is sent to Azkaban without a trial. He is 22 years old.
It's about 90% certain this happened on November 1, but it's also possible it was November 2. (PA10)
late November 1
Hagrid delivers baby Harry to Dumbledore. Dumbledore is waiting in Privet Drive to leave the baby with the Dursleys.
but there are twenty-four hours missing from the chronology of events of these two days... (PS1)
after November 1
Sirius Black is framed for the murders of Peter Pettigrew and twelve Muggles on November 1, 1981. He is sent by Bartemius Crouch Sr. to Azkaban without a trial.
This almost certainly happened immediately following Sirius's capture on November 1, but we have no way of knowing for sure. (GF27)
Note # 6: Well, you know that I think Dumbledore won't remove it because it is a Horcrux. Regardless, it's easy to see why the scar has been useful, especially in OOTP in saving Mr Weasley's life. Dumbledore would have known of the scar's importance at this time, not just through his own guesses, but because the prophesy explicitly states that Voldemort will mark the chosen one as his equal. Also, Rowling commented in an interview that we may well learn how Dumbledore got his own scar.
More points: We are first introduced to the term "Godric's Hollow" in this chapter. We can probably safely assume that it was named after Godric Gryffindor.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
__Vader__
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
Intersesting notes there, I hadn't noticed before. This thread is going to rock!
Very interesting about Dumbledore mentioning how useful the scar might be, not too sure if he is implying it is a horcrux though... I think we will see a few more uses for it in book 7. Of course Dumbledore could of course be referring to its ability to warn Harry of the growing darkness.
-----signature-----
Obi-Wan never told you what happended to your father...
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 11:12pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
- Date Edited:
10/15/06 11:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Zaz
|
"Note #1: I think this emphasises that although Petunia wants as little to do with Lily and Harry, she still keeps careful track of them as she "knows more than she lets on", as alluded to in books five and six."
I'm not sure what's up here. Did the sisters have some mode of contact? Did Lily ask her to hide them, and was turned down?
"Note #2: This forshadows the theme of "our choices make us what we are", I think. Dumbledore could have as much raw power as Voldemort, but he choses not to."
I wondered if his silence meant that he *would* use dark magic if he deemed it absolutely necessary.
Note: #5: the time line is interesting, but there are still a lot of gaps. Who witnessed the death of the Potters? Someone obviously did, and reported the results. The logical candidate is Snape, but it could be a house elf, or a picture on the wall.
Note # 6: I'm wondering if the Harry as Horcrux theory isn't a giant red herring of the type Rowling is so fond of. As you know, I don't believe it's a Horcrux, though it's certainly a mark, as the prophecy predicted.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
TheBoogieMan
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
10/15/06 11:55pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
TheBoogieMan posted:
Hagrid, on Dumbledore's orders, goes to Godric's Hollow to rescue baby Harry from the ruins of the house. (PS1)
I wonder - is this the book's words? If so, why 'ruins'? Surely it wasn't necessary to destroy the house in order to kill Lilly and James?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
__Vader__
Registered:
May '05
|
Date Posted:
10/16/06 2:01am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
TheBoogieMan posted:
TheBoogieMan posted:
Hagrid, on Dumbledore's orders, goes to Godric's Hollow to rescue baby Harry from the ruins of the house. (PS1)
I wonder - is this the book's words? If so, why 'ruins'? Surely it wasn't necessary to destroy the house in order to kill Lilly and James?
A good point, the only spell cast that night was Avada Kedavra, am I right? The house should have been untouched.
-----signature-----
Obi-Wan never told you what happended to your father...
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/16/06 6:45am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
|
However, a failed AK, especially on a wizard of LV's power, is probably a loose cannon. Harry's the only known survivor of an AK.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
|
Date Posted:
10/16/06 12:21pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
So the AK reversed, blew up everything and left Harry sitting in a pile of rubble? Did the book call it "ruins"? I don't have my book with me since I'm at work (Although now I might bring it and discuss points as this thread continues to grow).
The biggest thing I found suspicious is that Hagrid mentions the fact that he borrowed the bike from Sirius. Oh really? Well this is a can of worms right here. It seems that everyone was aware of James', Lily's and Voldemort's death pretty quickly. What made everyone know so quickly? How did this rumor get out so fast? Sirius knew because apparently he was there when Hagrid picked up Harry. But how did they know Harry survived? How did they know where to look since their locations were hidden by the Fidelus Charm?
-----signature-----
If you have any questions about Christianity and/or Jesus, I'd love to talk to you. Please PM me.
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!" Acts 16:31
Yes, I am a sinner. So are you. We all have a Savior.
------
TFN506@me.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/16/06 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
|
|
Perhaps the Charm did not survive their deaths, but it's still a puzzler.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/16/06 9:03pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter One
- Date Edited:
10/16/06 9:06pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Zaz
|
Chapter Two: "The Vanishing Glass"
This could be called "Ten Years Later". Harry has been living with the Dursleys for ten years, and things are pretty dire.
Note 1, Pages 19 & 24: Harry has a dream about a flying motorbike. Harry's dreams, unlike his suspicions, are usually fairly accurate.
Note 2, Page 21: "Mrs. Figg has broken her leg." She turns out to be more than a neighbour in later books.
Note 3, Page 23: "The problem was, strange things happened around Harry."
Note 4, Page 25 & 26: Harry's first experience of Parseltongue, the snake language he speaks.
Note 5, Page 27: Harry's 'memory' of the failed AK.
This is mostly a bridging chapter, but it establishes that even untrained, Harry can do magic when he is stressed, angry or frightened, and that he speaks Parseltongue.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
TheBoogieMan
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
10/17/06 4:45am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter Two
|
Zaz posted:
Perhaps the Charm did not survive their deaths, but it's still a puzzler.
I don't think so. If we presume that Sirius cast the same charm on Gimmauld place (if Dumbledore was the secret keeper) then the same thing would have happened upon his death in OOTP.
Some comments on this chapter:
Another line leading me to believe that Godric's Hollow was in fact destroyed - Petunia says, '"And come back and find the house in ruins?" she snarled.' Is she referring to the events 10 years earlier? Again, if she is, how does she know this?
Also, "On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible trouble for being found on the roof of the school kitchens. Dudley's gang had been chasing him as usual when, as much to Harry's surprise as anyone else's, there he was sitting on the chimney."
Did he apparate? Unlikely, as it's described as very painful in HBP. Levitate then?
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
jedichef1
Registered:
Aug '04
|
Date Posted:
10/17/06 5:12am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter Two
|
|
I had always seen the issue of harry getting on the roof was to do with the Wingardium Leviosa charm. We know that you can do magic without your wand and it was just a way of getting out of harms way. If you can focus your mind on something hard enough you can do things, this seems to be the message JKR gets across so I just presumed this is what happened.
-----signature-----
If so powerful are you why leave.
Hogwarts House cup Game 14 Gryffindor Prefect.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
|
Date Posted:
10/17/06 6:45am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter Two
|
TheBoogieMan posted:
"On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible trouble for being found on the roof of the school kitchens. Dudley's gang had been chasing him as usual when, as much to Harry's surprise as anyone else's, there he was sitting on the chimney."
Did he apparate? Unlikely, as it's described as very painful in HBP. Levitate then?
I don't know chef. The book makes it apparent that Harry just sorta got there in the blink of an eye. If he leveiated up slowly, it wouldn't be as sudden. I would say he apparated.
Zaz posted:
Note 1, Pages 19 & 24: Harry has a dream about a flying motorbike. Harry's dreams, unlike his suspicions, are usually fairly accurate.
Indeed. However where is the line between his dreams and Voldemort's thoughts? This chapter obviously doesn't go into that, but you have to wonder how you can tell what is a dream and what is an actual thought connection to Voldemort.
-----signature-----
If you have any questions about Christianity and/or Jesus, I'd love to talk to you. Please PM me.
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved!" Acts 16:31
Yes, I am a sinner. So are you. We all have a Savior.
------
TFN506@me.com
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
|
Date Posted:
10/17/06 6:47am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: Book One, Chapter Two
|
|
I doubt Voldemort was occupied with Harry's mode of transport post AK. He had other things on his mind.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
