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Topic:
Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: the JKR-SVA court decision
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crazybirdman
Title: Vice President
Orange County, CA
Registered:
Feb '03
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Date Posted:
10/25/07 8:48am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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yeah, we won't really know until there is an extrememely official internet poll. 
There is already a few shirts for sale
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leia_naberrie
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 7:58am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
- Date Edited:
10/26/07 8:05am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
leia_naberrie
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Who's ready to bet 10 dollars that if Grindelwald (who for the records was previously declared by Rowling post-HBP as "dead" and hence should not have been living, breathing, killed-by-Voldemort in Book 7) was a brilliant witch, Dumbledore's love life would have made at least one line of conversation in King's Cross? After all, Snape's raison d'etre (a.k.a. Lily Potter's Green Eyes) merited a whole chapter. Odd how the love that dare not speak its name became the love that the author couldn't shut up about.
It was spelt out as early as Book 2 that Aberforth "practised improper charms with a goat". However, the headmaster's tragic love life is only given credence with retrospective evidence - purple dresses, Rita Skeeter insinuating he was sexually abusing one of his students and the vague sub-plot of his unrequited love affair with Hitler.
Apparently after the backlash from the fandom community about how heterosexual the epilogue was, Rowling decided to throw a bone to the slashers. In her own words, "imagine the fan fic."
Talk about drowning in one's own fandom.
Edit: Spelling.
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 8:22am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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The French and German editions of book 7 are out tomorrow...
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Mar17swgirl
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 8:39am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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George_Roper posted:
I'd love to know what percentage of the fans are against him being gay, what percentage don't care, and what percentage are happy he's gay.
There is a poll on Mugglenet, and while it's not "official", it's the next best thing, as Mugglenet is one of the biggest HP fansites. The current results are...
*checks Mugglenet*
Hahaha, it seems the poll got hacked or something... There were three possible answers ("Jo is courageous and admirable", "Interesting. Anyway..." and "I wish she would have omitted that info"). Yesterday when I voted, the votes were more or less evenly spread out, with the middle "I don't care" option winning at about 40%, then the positive option and then the negative option, both around 30%.
Now there's only one vote, and that's for "Jo is courageous and admirable" (ergo, a 100% winner), and I can't vote again.
lol @ Mugglenet
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darth_paul
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 8:52am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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leia_naberrie posted:
Who's ready to bet 10 dollars that if Grindelwald (who for the records was previously declared by Rowling post-HBP as "dead" and hence should not have been living, breathing, killed-by-Voldemort in Book 7) was a brilliant witch, Dumbledore's love life would have made at least one line of conversation in King's Cross? After all, Snape's raison d'etre (a.k.a. Lily Potter's Green Eyes) merited a whole chapter. Odd how the love that dare not speak its name became the love that the author couldn't shut up about.
No, I don't think so. I think if she had felt it pertinent to the story at hand it would have made its way in, but as it really wasn't, it didn't.
The comparison to Snape/Lily doesn't work at all. For one thing, the story of Snape and Lily was pretty central to Harry's story; it was heavily tied up in Harry's past, and explained the peculiar relationship he had had with Snape for 7 books now. A lot more pertinent than his headmaster's boyhood passions involving a wizard he had only vaguely heard of. For another, Snape's feelings toward Lily are absolutely fundamental to his character; they explain pretty much entirely what he is and does for 17 years of his life. But there's nothing to unlock in re Dumbledore. His mysterious behavior doesn't need that kind of decoding. The Grindelward situation is probably informing his thoughts in certain ways, of course, but only in an extremely low-level way. In short: the situation with Snape and Lily is absolutely central to the series (after all, without Snape, Voldemort doesn't offer Lily her life, therefore she can't choose to die, therefore no more Boy Who Lived!), while that with Dumbledore and Grindelwald is almost entirely peripheral to it.
Contrariwise, for a bet I would take: Had Grindelwald been a brilliant witch with whom Dumbledore had been in love, I would bet that now, a week later, we wouldn't still be discussing it. And I know it wouldn't have made the news. *sigh*
-Paul
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Epicauthor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 9:48am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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The only reason it's important to Dumbledore as a character is it explains why he let Grindenwald go as far as he did before he stopped him. If you love someone, you can't bear to think that they are in anyway evil or doing hurtful things. Imagine the moment when DD realized that this man that he loved needed to be stopped and that he was the only one who could do it. I imagine it absolutely broke his heart and explains a lot about why he pretty much hid from a huge public life by becoming headmaster.
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JMJacenSolo
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 10:53am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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You really can't win when it comes to this issue. You've got the ultra-religious loons condemning her for making him gay, and the gay activists complaining that she wasn't "brave" enough to make him explicitly gay. Like she owes the gay community anything. I personally don't care either way, although it does seem kind of tacked-on.
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George_Roper
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 11:18am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
- Date Edited:
10/26/07 11:19am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
George_Roper
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Epicauthor posted:
The only reason it's important to Dumbledore as a character is it explains why he let Grindenwald go as far as he did before he stopped him. If you love someone, you can't bear to think that they are in anyway evil or doing hurtful things. Imagine the moment when DD realized that this man that he loved needed to be stopped and that he was the only one who could do it. I imagine it absolutely broke his heart and explains a lot about why he pretty much hid from a huge public life by becoming headmaster.
In the books DD says he avoided GG because he was afraid of finding out who cast the spell that killed his sister. And he said he became a headmaster in order to avoid being positions of real power.
EDIT: thanks for the poll results.
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Epicauthor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 12:03pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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George_Roper posted:
Epicauthor posted:
The only reason it's important to Dumbledore as a character is it explains why he let Grindenwald go as far as he did before he stopped him. If you love someone, you can't bear to think that they are in anyway evil or doing hurtful things. Imagine the moment when DD realized that this man that he loved needed to be stopped and that he was the only one who could do it. I imagine it absolutely broke his heart and explains a lot about why he pretty much hid from a huge public life by becoming headmaster.
In the books DD says he avoided GG because he was afraid of finding out who cast the spell that killed his sister. And he said he became a headmaster in order to avoid being positions of real power.
EDIT: thanks for the poll results.
But if we are going to look deeper into that character we have to take into account the feelings DD had for GG and the result of those feelings. It makes no difference if DD didn't face him because of him being a Hitler character or because of his sister. It comes down to not wanting to face the fact that someone you love could do something so horrible.
Positions of power notwithstanding, I think an arguement can be made for DD becoming a teacher to escape all that happened to him because of that relationship and wanting to "pass on what he learned."
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SoldYourSoul
Registered:
Sep '07
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 12:07pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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George_Roper posted:
Epicauthor posted:
The only reason it's important to Dumbledore as a character is it explains why he let Grindenwald go as far as he did before he stopped him. If you love someone, you can't bear to think that they are in anyway evil or doing hurtful things. Imagine the moment when DD realized that this man that he loved needed to be stopped and that he was the only one who could do it. I imagine it absolutely broke his heart and explains a lot about why he pretty much hid from a huge public life by becoming headmaster.
In the books DD says he avoided GG because he was afraid of finding out who cast the spell that killed his sister. And he said he became a headmaster in order to avoid being positions of real power.
It doesn't have to be so black and white. Dumbledore could have had two reasons to avoid Grindelwald.
As for me, I'm not sure what to think. On one hand, I agree that Rowling could have found a way to mention his homosexuality in the books. Grawp wasn't relevant, a lot of little details aren't relevant, but they're DETAILS, and in this case, they flesh out Dumbledore's character as well as promote the message of tolerance. I find it a little suspicious that Rowling never mentions Dumbledore's sexuality until after the book is out. She may have had the idea for a while, but I don't think she integrated it into the book well.
That's my main disappointment with Deathly Hallows, it ends with no explanations, and then Rowling randomly tells us what happens to all the characters via interviews and webchats afterwards.
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George_Roper
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
- Date Edited:
10/26/07 12:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
George_Roper
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It doesn't have to be black and white but the poster I quoted seemed to think that the book didn't adequately explain why DD made those choices. I think it did.
EDIT: and that he 'dreamt' what he did in the cave in HBP proves that this was the major reason for his choices.
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leia_naberrie
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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darth_paul posted:
leia_naberrie posted:
Who's ready to bet 10 dollars that if Grindelwald (who for the records was previously declared by Rowling post-HBP as "dead" and hence should not have been living, breathing, killed-by-Voldemort in Book 7) was a brilliant witch, Dumbledore's love life would have made at least one line of conversation in King's Cross? After all, Snape's raison d'etre (a.k.a. Lily Potter's Green Eyes) merited a whole chapter. Odd how the love that dare not speak its name became the love that the author couldn't shut up about.
No, I don't think so. I think if she had felt it pertinent to the story at hand it would have made its way in, but as it really wasn't, it didn't.
The comparison to Snape/Lily doesn't work at all. For one thing, the story of Snape and Lily was pretty central to Harry's story; it was heavily tied up in Harry's past, and explained the peculiar relationship he had had with Snape for 7 books now. A lot more pertinent than his headmaster's boyhood passions involving a wizard he had only vaguely heard of. For another, Snape's feelings toward Lily are absolutely fundamental to his character; they explain pretty much entirely what he is and does for 17 years of his life. But there's nothing to unlock in re Dumbledore. His mysterious behavior doesn't need that kind of decoding. The Grindelward situation is probably informing his thoughts in certain ways, of course, but only in an extremely low-level way. In short: the situation with Snape and Lily is absolutely central to the series (after all, without Snape, Voldemort doesn't offer Lily her life, therefore she can't choose to die, therefore no more Boy Who Lived!), while that with Dumbledore and Grindelwald is almost entirely peripheral to it.
Contrariwise, for a bet I would take: Had Grindelwald been a brilliant witch with whom Dumbledore had been in love, I would bet that now, a week later, we wouldn't still be discussing it. And I know it wouldn't have made the news. *sigh*
-Paul
DD's relationship with GG merited a long, unravelling back story from the first chapter featuring the newspaper obituary to epilogue where we meet Albus (Severus) Potter. Not to mention visits to his home, an afterlife chat, and a special appearance from his goat loving brother. But somehow, the three words "he loved him" were never uttered...
...until now. 
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Mar17swgirl
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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Ah, it appears that the Mugglenet poll is fixed now.  Current standings:
"Jo is courageous and admirable" - 31.6%
"Interesting. Anyway..." - 42.0%
"I wish she would have omitted that info" - 26.4%
So yeah, most people don't really care...
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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My take: DD is an 150 years old. This has been moot for quite some time.
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
10/27/07 12:19pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter Chapter by Chapter: The You-Know-What Controversy
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The issues involving Dumbledore, Grindelwald, and Dumbledore's sister never quite fit right until now. I think Dumbledore's past makes at least a little more sense, and the info makes DD a good deal more interesting - perhaps even interesting enough to warrant all the focus that's put on him in DH.
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