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Topic:
Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 10:06am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
- Date Edited:
5/11 10:20am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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timmoishere posted:
KnightWriter posted:
If you want to consider it better than its immediate predecessor, that's fine. There's no way on this earth that it's better than the original.
No, I think it's better than Raiders too.
I think that's pretty off, with all respect. It's a good film, but Raiders is perfect. It has no flaws, no weaknesses and is consistently iconic from start to finish.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
Tracy Flick lost.
"It's kinda hard to stay the course when you've reached the end of the road and you're off-roading in a Kia."--506
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timmoishere
Registered:
Jun '07
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Date Posted:
5/11 10:33am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Raiders doesn't have Sean Connery in it, though.
And tank chase > truck chase.
And Donovan > Belloq
The only thing Raiders does better than Crusade was Karen Allen.
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What ain't no country I ever heard of. They speak English in What?
Vikings > Pirates > Ninjas
Everything tastes better wrapped in bacon, especially bacon
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 11:32am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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I completely disagree, and I doubt we could find much common ground in general on this one. Raiders is done with utter seriousness for the most part, with little camp, while Crusade has too much camp for me. Most of the humor in Raiders is of the deadpan sort (very much what I prefer), while Crusade tries too hard to be funny sometimes.
Raiders just has a tighter story overall, and a superior script.
-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
Tracy Flick lost.
"It's kinda hard to stay the course when you've reached the end of the road and you're off-roading in a Kia."--506
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KissMeImARebel
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
5/11 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
- Date Edited:
5/11 11:51am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KissMeImARebel
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Hell no!
Raiders is by far the best of the three. Papa Jones is a fun addition to Crusade - I'll give it that - but he's really just a gimmick IMO. And it had the weakest of the three leading ladies. Raiders had the most exciting story and the humor didn't come off as cheesy as it did in Temple of Doom and Last Crusade.
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/11 11:55am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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KnightWriter posted:
I completely disagree, and I doubt we could find much common ground in general on this one. Raiders is done with utter seriousness for the most part, with little camp, while Crusade has too much camp for me. Most of the humor in Raiders is of the deadpan sort (very much what I prefer), while Crusade tries too hard to be funny sometimes.
Raiders just has a tighter story overall, and a superior script.
Sorry, I disagree.
Don't get me wrong. I love Raiders. It's fantastic. One of the best movies ever made, seriously. But: Crusade is a better movie. Better score, better one-liners, better plot, and a much, much better end. Crusade is the result of people taking a step back and asking "What made Raiders a better movie than Temple? And how can we make it better?" Raiders has the benefit of being the original. I'll also give it that the Nazis are better at being dangerous in Raiders. But I can't say as I find Raiders better than Crusade.
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3. Prophet.
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Zaz
Title: Manager:
The Amphitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/11 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Best villain: Belloq, mainly because he wasn't just a tool, or a Nazi, and because he had qualms.
Best leading lady: Marian; Willi is a ditz, and whatserface is completely forgettable.
Best supporting cast: 3rd movie scores strongly here.
Best script: It depends on what interests you...gross-outs, then the 2nd; father/son, then the second and third; romance, the first; and so forth.
My theory is that the first movie, made when Speilberg was at a low point in his career, shows Lucas as more powerful. It has the tough and spunky brunette heroine, the bickering romance, the conflicted bad guy, the great action sequences, and the fantasy power source. In the second movie, Spielberg has more power; so we get a blonde ditz as heroine, the father/son relationship always having more resonance than the man/woman relationship, the naughty boy gross-outs, the cardboard bad guys, and the roller-coaster action scenes. In the third, Spielberg is much, much more powerful, so there's no pretence at romance (the female lead is absolutely disposable and villain to boot), and the father/son relationship is centre stage of the plot.
So...number 4. The spunky brunette heroine is back, but father/son is quite obviously centre stage again. Guess who has the power?
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
5/11 1:10pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Zaz
Title: Manager:
The Amphitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/11 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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I see you are a blonde man, too, 2nd.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/11 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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I feel that's a gross over-simplification of the process of filmmaking. How do the men in question decide who has more "power"? By box-office clout or by critical appreciation? Since 1989 Spielberg has directed several critically-adored films (including Schindler, widely regarded as one of the greatest films ever made) and more than a handful of money-making blockbusters. It's preposterous to say Lucas now has more "power" than he does. In any case, it's well known that Lucas concocts the story for these films and hires a screenwriter to flesh it out. I'm not suggesting that Spielberg is not involved in the developmental process, but the idea that the partner with more immediate "power" -- however you choose to define that -- is solely responsible for the casting, the relationship dynamic and the character of the female lead is simply inaccurate.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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soitscometothis
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
5/11 3:58pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Crusade is a fun film with a great cast, and it is certainly better than Temple of Doom, but it is not in the same class as Raiders - in fact, I don't think it is even in the same genre. Raiders is an adventure movie, with a lot of suspense, scares, and some humour - but never does the humour take away from the seriousness of the situations. I never once felt that the cast and crew didn't totally believe in what they were doing, or were going for cheap laughs. Crusade is an action-comedy, with many situations feeling kind of contrived; it gets away with it because the cast is so good, and the Ford/Connery dynamic is magical.
Raiders is one of the greatest adventure movies ever made.
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
5/11 5:08pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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KnightWriter posted:
If you want to consider it better than its immediate predecessor, that's fine. There's no way on this earth that it's better than the original.
Of course, Raiders is my favorite movie of all time, so this in no way is better than that.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
Chipper Jones MVP Watch:
BA: .390 HR: 17 RBI: 48 OBP: 483 SLG: .632
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Zaz
Title: Manager:
The Amphitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/11 5:41pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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At the time of Raiders, Spielberg was just off a very bad flop "1941"
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 5:48pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Raiders transcends its genre, and in a way it is the genre. It goes beyond the action/adventure realm into something more, and it really should have won Best Picture that year.
-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
Tracy Flick lost.
"It's kinda hard to stay the course when you've reached the end of the road and you're off-roading in a Kia."--506
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Django211
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
5/11 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Raiders is by far the best of the films. Unlike the other films the supporting characters are a match for Indy. Belloq is essentially Indy minus the morality. He outsmarts him at every turn and when he finally attains what he's been looking for his whole life, it destroys him. Indy wisely gives it up and lives. Although this theme is repeated in Last Crusade, it works better in Raiders, Marion is also the best romantic interest for Indy. Allen & Ford have a chemistry that the other actresses lacked. Probably because Karen Allen is a better actress than Mrs Spielberg & Allison whomever. We also see just how much she meant to Indy when she is presumed dead. The other female characters never come close to this. You don't think for a minute that Indy would care half as much if they died.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
5/11 7:38pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade"
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Zaz posted:
At the time of Raiders, Spielberg was just off a very bad flop "1941"
Right. And your point is...?
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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