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Topic:
Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc.The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
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Django211
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/11 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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I saw this in the theater & the crowd went nuts through the whole thing. People were sitting in the aisles. I haven't been to a film since that time where the audience had that type of reaction.
What's not to love? The chemistry is back, a fantastic villain, good space battles, revolutionary effects & the most disgusting creatures from all the ST films. The highlight of the franchise.
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/11 7:44pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
- Date Edited:
6/11 7:46pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Chancellor_Ewok
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Django211 posted:
What's not to love? The chemistry is back, a fantastic villain, good space battles, revolutionary effects & the most disgusting creatures from all the ST films. The highlight of the franchise.
Not only that, but the writers let the villian die thinking he'd won AND they had the balls to kill Trek's most sacred character. It says somethingabout Wrath of Khan that only two other Trek films, The Undiscovered Country and First Contact, have even come close to recreating the perfection of Star Trek II.
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JEDIGUNSHIP
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/12 9:23am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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It was much more interesting than the first movie (but maybe that's because our copies of the two movies were different).
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:23pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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Jango10 posted:
20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
After 10 'Star Treks,' they all start to seem the same -- with the exception of this character-driven classic, in which Kirk's brooding, Khan's evil glee (no one overacts like Ricardo Montalban) and Spock's noble death make for a sci-fi action flick with the pathos of a Greek tragedy. KHAAAAN!
First off, let me star out by saying TWOK > TMP. No contest.
HOWEVER, and Ive been saying this a lot, TMP has the best story of any Trek film. It does. And if they cut like 40-50 minutes of all of the exterior shots to prove "LOOK, A MOVIE!" it would probably have been the greatest Trek film of all time. However, they learned all of those lessons from TMP and, thus, TWOk was born...
A true masterpiece.
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DarthArsenal6
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:33pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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dp4m posted:
However, they learned all of those lessons from TMP
A true masterpiece.
I guess that was short lived when generation came around
I can't understand how they made nemisis !
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
-Games
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 3:27pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
- Date Edited:
6/12 3:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Probably the only short coming of the film could potentially be the early Kobyashi Maru test, which, while obviously performed and shot to be almost a parody of a cliche'd Star Trek moment, bad acting and all, may make audiences not aware of the self-referential nature of the scene, who would take it straight-laced, scoff at the silliness of it. But that's a minor, somewhat metahumor thing, which can be excused.
The funny thing is it seems the biggest problem people tend to have with Nemesis is that it's a retread of TWOK that doesn't succeed in the ways the original did (partially due to the slightly-spotty script which incorporated sequences and subplots complete irrelevant to the film or unresolved), though it arguably beats TWOK in terms of Trek tactical battles, but there is a different tone to thme that makes a direct comparison not entirely accurate (TWOK being sub vs sub, whereas Nemesis is more surface vessel(s) vs a very powerful sub).
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soitscometothis
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
6/12 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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I found the Nemesis starship battle meh. The ships in WoK seem to have more weight to them - I really get the feeling that they are heavy, powerful vessels. The cgi ships we see in the Next Gen movies just seem to lightweight to me, at least in the combat scenes.
But anyway, Yeah, Wrath of Khan is brilliant, certainly much better than The Motion Picture.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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-Lit Mod of Death
-Games
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 4:26pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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I'm not sure about that- the Scimitar struck me as feeling large and heavy, and the Romulan birds as well. the Enterprise is the only questionable one, and even then it was mostly cenetredin the action so it's movement wasn't very apparent, which groudned it.
Visuals aside, the tactics were engaging (no pun intended  ) and added a nice degree of tension to things as they tried different methods to counter the Scimitar's abilities (random phaser attacks to try and chance-strike the cloaked ship, then firing a torpedo at that location, having to adjust the shield balances and the ship's orientation to protect weakpoints, etc). Plus the ramming sequence and subsequent self-destruct attempt (good enough tactical sense given the stakes, but brilliantly disabled to avoid using an overused tactic- both funny and sensical. If they hadn't tried it, people would ask why they didn't, and if they had sued it, people would complain they had used it again. Perfect solution to force another tactic.
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/12 7:30pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
- Date Edited:
6/12 7:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Chancellor_Ewok
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The thing I liked about Nemisis was that the story was based on the idea that Picard has an evil twin, which TNG, DS9 and Voyager intentionally avoided because it was so over used in TOS. I liked it because Picard is a highly skilled negotiator and you would think that he should be able to talk down a clone of himself without too much trouble. The thing I didn't really like was Data's death. It lack the power of Spock's death scene, which was brilliant, and as though the writers just said:
"Let's kill a character."
"OK, which one?"
"Ummm, let's kill Data."
"Yeah. that would be cool."
The other problem with Data's death scene was the memorial service in Picard's ready room. I've read that they had to do several takes of that scene because, Patrick Stewart kept bursting into tears. If I were the director, I would have told Stewart to use that. Picard/Data was supposed to be analagous to Kirk/Spock. One of the things that made Spock's death scene so great was the fact that Kirk was in a state of shock and wanted to mourn the death of his most trusted advisor and closest friend, yet need to be appear strong for his crew and these to facets of his personality were visibly warring with each other. I didn't get this from Picard and I should have, considering that Picard's senior staff has served together almost continiously for 15 years.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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No, i agree Data's death felt arbitrary and was one of those TWOK moments they tried to emulate without success.
I also think the Picard clone was a good idea and generally well acted and had the potential to be a personal-opponent ala Kahn and the Borg, but I think there was some impact lost on him due to the manner in which he's introduced. The film really, really, needed to open with some kind of flashback showing a young Picard as played by the same actor who later shows up as the clone. It would have put the audience in the same state of shock as Picard when the clone reveals himself.
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Currently Reading: Death Star
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/13 10:20am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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The2ndQuest posted:
The film really, really, needed to open with some kind of flashback showing a young Picard as played by the same actor who later shows up as the clone. It would have put the audience in the same state of shock as Picard when the clone reveals himself.
Well, they kind of did that with the photo of Tom Hardy portraying Picard as an Academy Cadet, but IMO it was too sublte.
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I killed a man with this thumb.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/13 11:14am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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Yeah- we needed to see and hear him, i think.
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Currently Reading: Death Star
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
6/17 3:24pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 20. Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
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19. After the Third Man
Did the word "sequel" even exist yet when this follow-up to the 1934 classic released on Christmas Day in '36? How about "franchise"? Nick and Nora Charles' (William Powell and Myrna Loy) second case was such a hoot that four more 'Thin Man' escapades followed. As Nick might've said, "Phat!"
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
6/17 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 19. After the Third Man
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Courtesy of TCM, I have seen this, and though it isn't bad, it isn't as good as the first one.
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packerfansam
Registered:
Feb '07
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:09am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 19. After the Thin Man
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I agree, it's good, but not better than the original.
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