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Topic:
Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc.The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
7/1 3:41pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 19. After the Thin Man
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18. The Bourne Supremacy
With a flawed hero (Matt Damon), primal storyline (amnesiac spy wants to discover his identity) and visceral fight sequences (Bourne beats the snot out of a baddie with a magazine), 'Supremacy' practically saved the action genre from devolving into self-parody. James Bond is grateful.
Is it a worthy sequel? Yes.
Is it better than the original? Yes.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:46am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 18. The Bourne Supremacy
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Good movie, yes. Better than the first? Not sure about that one.
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JMJacenSolo
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
7/2 10:04am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 18. The Bourne Supremacy
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Worst of the Bourne movies, IMO. Plot is too one-dimensional and the car chase in particular is far too long.
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Fire Andy Reid
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soitscometothis
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
7/2 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 18. The Bourne Supremacy
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I love The Bourne Identity, and in my view, it is easily the best of the trilogy. Supremacy I hated, finding the killing-off of Marie cheap, the characterisation/continuity bad, and the shakey-cam action just plain annoying.
In no way better than the original.
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I am not an eel popsicle. Art: http://boards.theforce.net/Fan_Art/b10020/17816752/?21 Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity
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Jango10
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
7/5 5:01pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 18. The Bourne Supremacy
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17. Superman II
Moodier and arguably better than the original, 'II' brings our hero back down to Earth -- literally -- when he gives up his powers for love. Struggling not just with his identity but also with a badass trio of villains (Sam Raimi, take note), the Man of Steel has never before (or since) been more human, or more real.
I don't like Superman, at all.
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"I love the smell of Napalm in the morning."
McCain/Palin '08
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/6 9:43am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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I've seen the first two movies, and the second was much the better of the two...Terence Stamp was a good villain, with two good henchmen.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
7/6 10:38am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Just to provide a bit of context, the first two Superman movies were adapted from a massive screenplay by Mario "Godfather" Puzo that was split into two and filmed, at first, concurrently and back-to-back by the same director, Richard "The Omen" Donner. But Donner clashed with the producers, the Salkinds, as he went over-schedule and over-budget. Donner was still in the process of finishing II when I was released; between films, the Salkinds fired Donner and replaced him with Richard "Three Musketeers" Lester. Lester had a more comedic, goofball style, less realistic and more campy. He re-worked the sequel, re-shot many or most of what Donner had done, and excised the Marlon Brando footage owing to the actor's huge monetary demands. The resulting film bears Lester's name as well as his personal stamp. It's a great story with terrific actors, in a style and approach that is similar to the first film. But the entire enterprise is undermined by Lester's goofball camp -- such as when the super-villains create a hurricane-force wind on the streets of Metropolis, and a citizen talking on a payphone gets knocked over and continues to laugh and talk as if nothing is happening. Sheer ridiculousness. Two years ago, Donner re-cut his own version of the film using outtakes and the excised Brando footage. In it we can see glimpses of what might have been, but his re-usage of the time-shifting ending of the first film feels repetitive and anti-climactic. If Donner had been allowed to stay on the project we probably would have got something closer to what the finished II is like, just a bit more realistic and not quite as silly. If you want to see what Lester on his own is capable of achieving with the Superman franchise, we need look no farther than the laughable Superman III to find out. /shudder/
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/6 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
- Date Edited:
7/6 11:38am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Zaz
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The first film had plenty of campiness--it was just tediously unamusing, most notably Gene Hackman, Valerie Perrine and Ned Beatty. Reeve was fine, but Lois Lane seems to be an uncastable role. Lester might have done better because he had something to work with. Though that's not always true...vide his godawful attempt at a very good book: "Royal Flash".
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
7/6 1:05pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Well, what you're calling campiness in the first movie I would just call humor, but I concede it's a thin line. It comes down to subjective tastes, as usual, of course, but I find the business with Luthor, Otis and Miss Tessmacher to be infectiously funny and giggle-inducing -- and not in a "campy", wink-wink way. What is essential to understand about Donner's contributions, moreover, is that he cast Reeve in the role, oversaw the development of the script, the costuming and the flying effects, and shaped the look, style and tone of the films, all of which Lester emulated for his efforts. Without Donner we would not have Chris Reeve as Superman nor the degree of verisimilitude with which the first two films were approached.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Django211
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/6 2:26pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Lois Lane uncastable? I'd say Donner got it perfect with Margot Kidder. Her & Reeve were terrific together whether it was as Lois/Superman or Lois/Clark. Unlike other filmed versions, Donner was smart enough to realize that Lois doesn't need to be drop dead gorgeous. Superman loves her because of who she is. Kidder nailed the big city, tough, smart-aleck who always bites off more than she can chew. It's very easy to see why Superman is smitten. The DVD shows some interesting alternative choices to Kidder, such as Stockard Channing, Anne Archer, Holly Palance & others. Kidder & Donner got it right.
To add to Vortigern's post, although Mario Puzo was credited with the screenplay the script really belongs to Tom Mankiewicz. Puzo was the bigger name thanks to "The Godfather" films and due to WGA rules, his was the first credit. Donner gave Mankiewicz a "Creative Consultant" credit right before his director credit as a way of rewarding him. Very little of what Puzo wrote was left in the film.
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Zaz
Title: Manager, The Ampitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
7/6 2:40pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Well, we agree to disagree, then. She comes across as butch and charmless to me. I've never seen one that works, and it may be because there's something wrong with the role. I'm guessing Lois was probably based in part on Hildy Johnson in "His Girl Friday". Hildy was originally a man in "The Front Page", the play on which it is based, but Hawks changed it up. It works in the Hawks movie, but Lois herself seems like a construct every time I see her, of what, I'm not sure.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
7/6 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Kudos to Django for pointing out that Maciewicz was the real author of the filmed screenplay(s). I did use the phrase "adapted from" with regard to the massive Puzo screenplay because it served as a foundation for what came later, including the story arc which was split into two films.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Django211
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/6 3:40pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Going back to the topic I don't think that either version of "Superman II" is better than the original. Because of the problems that resulted in Donner being fired, the original still isn't what Donner & company had in mind. The spinning of the Earth was supposed to end part II. So even in "The Donner cut" you have to re-imagine a new ending for part I, where Superman saves California & throws the other missile into space & freeing the Phantom Zone. It would have created a cleaner segue into the sequel but its nearly impossible to simply throw out the old ending since its already been seen. Superman is supposedly overmatched in the sequel but going along with what Vortigern said, Lester's inappropriate humor often undercuts the menace of the villains. I think it had the potential to be better, but it was never given a chance.
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JohnWesleyDowney
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
7/6 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
- Date Edited:
7/6 4:05pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
JohnWesleyDowney
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Superman II better than Superman I? It doesn't even tie in directly the way it was originally intended due to the cheapness of the Salkinds.
For one thing, the cinematography is terrible.
Richard Lester had no idea how to complete what Richard Donner started. The Superman movies got worse with each sequel.
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How many movies do you think Industrial Light and Magic has worked on? WRONG. http://www.ilm.com/ilm_services.html "Films fulfill an unconscious spiritual desire that human beings have to share a common memory." - Martin Scorcese
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
7/6 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Sequels That Surpass Their Predecessors - Now Disc. 17. "Superman II"
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Django211 posted:
Superman is supposedly overmatched in the sequel but going along with what Vortigern said, Lester's inappropriate humor often undercuts the menace of the villains. I think it had the potential to be better, but it was never given a chance.
I'm planning to post in JWD's other thread, but I think this question is more appropriate here:
I own both versions of II. Maybe JWD or somebody else can verify this for me, but I could swear that in the first version of II (Lester's theatrical one), the young kid who's the son of the local sheriff is killed by Non. When the 3 Phantom Zone baddies are still terrorizing the small town, the kid hops on a horse and takes off at full speed, presumably to get help. Non takes the same red police flasher that he fancied from earlier and flings it after the kid. There's an explosion in the distance, where the kid & the horse are apparently "blown up" by the lightbulb. Another civilian character says "But he was just a boy" or something like that. Ursa replies, saying something like "And now he'll never become a man". Zod says nothing and looks disinterested.
I know that I saw this the first time I saw the film. I originally saw the Lester version of II on HBO or Showtime back in the early `80s, so I remember seeing this repeatedly. Now it's not in either version, at least not the versions that have been released on DVD (I never saw that clip on TV broadcasts either, but I figured this was because of America's FCC standards & practices regulations forbidding it). Does anybody else out there remember this??? It would certainly add a LOT more menace to the 3 baddies, because it adds an unpredictability in their hostility to Earth folks. When Zod or Ursa casually threaten to kill Luthor or Lois, it's totally believable, when you consider the number of people they actually kill on-screen. It also adds more gravity to the battle in Manhattan, when they decide to wear down Superman by directly threatening civilian lives.
So what confuses me is whether that kid-killing scene was originally Donner's idea or Lester's. I'm inclined to suggest Lester, since Donner seemed to limit the direct on-screen deaths in both films to those deaths that affect Clark/Superman profoundly.
Can anybody help me on this? I know I didn't imagine that one scene. 
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