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Topic:
First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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Zaz
Title: Manager:
The Amphitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:23pm
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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The worst President is generally held to be Warren Harding, generally because of wide-spread corruption in his administration.
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rogue_wookiee
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 7:57am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 7:58am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
rogue_wookiee
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Zaz, there is a good deal of evidence, including statements from Presidential staff and high ranking officials, that points to FDR knowing about the attack on Pearl Harbor and using it is a way into WWII. It may be falsified, true, but as it stands there is a good deal of evidence both from witnesses and through circumstances to show otherwise.
Also I don't get what you are saying with FDR not deliberately prolonging the depression with poor economic policies. I never claimed the man was evil and did it deliberately. His intentions are not the question. The question is of his actions. His actions were poor and the economy is still declining due to many policies and precedents he put into place. I don't see anyone looking at Bush right now going "He meant well with his abstinence only programs. It's not his fault it was a terrible idea." Bush at least had some foresight that people don't give him credit for. He got a lot of crap for shooting down federal funding for stem cell research, but that was at least a step away from our ridiculous budget for once. He tried to find a way to change social security, a system which should never have existed, to something privatized which was also short-sighted, but it was slightly better than his peers ideas of social security reform. Again not a good President, but not the worst in history from all unbiased indications.
Gonk, I am not off base comparing Bush to other wartime presidents. Sumter, the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11. All incidents which led the U.S. to war. Hell, Truman didn't even have an incident to give him reason. He just intervened in Korea and got 36,516 American citizens killed. Am I saying the Iraq or Afghanistan wars are justified? No. And don't think for a second I support the wars. I'm merely saying that Bush is not without precedent for his actions. This isn't a defense of Bush. It's a defense of historical fact and perspective. Something needed when looking at any controversial figure. People are hot-blooded over Bush now, but such heat cools with time.
KW, I respect your opinion, but it's not going against anything we are saying. StarDude and I aren't saying in 20 years people will look back at Bush as a good president. Merely that in 20 years people will look back and realize Bush's presidency was the end of the world. The next president, be it Obama, Clinton or McCain, may make us forget how we hated Bush even sooner because we'll have a whole new idiot to hate starting in a few short months. All I have to say is may the economy have mercy on us all if some form of universal health care is passed into law or Iran is invaded.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
5/10 8:16am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 8:21am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Gonk
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Gonk, I am not off base comparing Bush to other wartime presidents. Sumter, the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, 9/11. All incidents which led the U.S. to war.
So? What incident led the US to War in Iraq? Certainly nothing that had anything to do with it because 9/11 didn't have anything to do with Iraq other than the hijackers came from the same general part of the world as Iraq.
Hell, Truman didn't even have an incident to give him reason. He just intervened in Korea and got 36,516 American citizens killed.
Uhhh... NORTH Korea invaded SOUTH Korea. They marched right over it. There was barely anything left when MacArthur got there. Truman clearly had a reason, the North Koreans crossed the border and were killing South Koreans. What's this about "just intervening"??? North Korea was in current and full breach of the UN Charter and Truman was more than justified in his decision.
And while it's true that Iraq invaded Kuwait... you don't save lives in Kuwait by invading the agressor nation 12 years after it surrendered.
Am I saying the Iraq or Afghanistan wars are justified? No. And don't think for a second I support the wars. I'm merely saying that Bush is not without precedent for his actions. This isn't a defense of Bush. It's a defense of historical fact and perspective. Something needed when looking at any controversial figure. People are hot-blooded over Bush now, but such heat cools with time.
You're right in that Bush is not without prescedent, but you're referencing all the wrong incidents. All the ones you reference are incidents where the US or its ally was attacked first, something which has simply no excuse. The exception to that would be MAdison, and in his case he wasn't as in favor of the war as Bush clearly was for his.
Closer situations to the Iraq war and Bush's place in it would be those experienced by Presidents Polk and Andrew Jackson.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/10 8:26am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 8:32am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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All I have to say is may the economy have mercy on us all if some form of universal health care is passed into law or Iran is invaded.
Yes, God forbid we ensure that all our citizens have some form of health care. We wouldn't want that. All the money that went into Iraq could have gone into, I don't know, maybe universal health care?
Canada sure is an economic wasteland, what with their universal health care. I bet the reason Zaz's posts are generally so short is because he has to conserve his energy, since he can't afford to eat more than once a day.
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"The Obama Car will be fueled by FISA amendments and emit civil liberties for exhaust." A-B
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Boba_Fett_2001
Title: Co-Winner; The Shelf of Shame
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
5/10 8:48am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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KnightWriter posted:
I bet the reason Zaz's posts are generally so short is because he has to conserve his energy, since he can't afford to eat more than once a day.
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Blithe
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:07am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:10am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Blithe
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Zaz posted:
Lincoln could have suspended the 1864 election; but he didn't...
PPOR.
Gonk posted:
North Korea was in current and full breach of the UN Charter and Truman was more than justified in his decision.
So justified he did not even bother to get Congressional approval and declare war against North Korea and China, huh?
KnightWriter posted:
Yes, God forbid we ensure that all our citizens have some form of health care. We wouldn't want that. All the money that went into Iraq could have gone into, I don't know, maybe universal health care?
The problem is not that money is being spent in Iraq; the problem is that there is NO money to spend. The U.S. constantly goes into to debt to pay the bill, and the U.S. will do the exact same thing in order to fund UniCare. Even excessively rasing the corporate tax rate -- which is already the HIGHEST IN THE WORLD, might I add -- and the Income Tax rate on the more wealthy Americans, to the level in which Senator Obama, for example, suggests will not be enough to pay for it. The U.S. will simply plunge itself further into debt.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:22am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:26am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Gonk
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So justified he did not even bother to get Congressional approval and declare war against North Korea and China, huh?
This was a UN policing action, was it not? The UN Charter was violated and so Truman went to war to defend it along with many other nations.
China, BTW, was not even involved at that point. It only became involved when the North Koreans were in full retreat.
Unlike Iraq, time was of the essence in Korea. The North Korean forces had all but conquered the peninsula; further delay would have lost everything. There's simply no comparison: not moving military forces would have meant the loss of South Korea, which is now a vibrant asian state.
If the UN clearly mandates war in direct response to state agression, I see no problem with the American President answering that need without congressional approval if delay means losing the conflict before it begins. Such a move saves lives. It does not save lives 12 years after the conflict is over. It certainly doesn't save them if you replace 50-60,000 dead Iraqis a year from sanctions with 150,000+ dead Iraqis a year from an ongoing war of occupation.
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rogue_wookiee
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:30am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:32am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
rogue_wookiee
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So, KnightWriter, since you clearly believe in alleviating the national debt and that we should have universal health care, what is your brilliant plan for paying for this health care without increasing the national debt?
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“You’re probably the biggest taxer in the country, even bigger than the Congress,” - Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve. Be aware of inflation and how it affects our daily life. http://mises.org/story/2914 -What You Should Know About Inflation
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Blithe
Registered:
Jun '03
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:38am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:40am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Blithe
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A UN Charter does not override the U.S.'s Constitution--only Congress has the power to initiate millitary action of any signifigance. Also, while the Chinese did not have troops involved in Korea at the time of the President's intervention, they were supplying the North. Keep in mind -- whether right or wrong -- that has been enough for many key politcal figures to justify the invasion of Iran right now. So I simply considered China as an important factor at that point, if you'll excuse me.
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snap-hiss
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:39am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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KnightWriter posted:
All I have to say is may the economy have mercy on us all if some form of universal health care is passed into law or Iran is invaded.
Yes, God forbid we ensure that all our citizens have some form of health care. We wouldn't want that.
Amen.
!snap
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whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
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StarDude
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:40am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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The Senate Floor.
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It's not who I am underneath, but what I do
that defines me.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:49am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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A UN Charter does not override the U.S.'s Constitution--only Congress has the power to initiate millitary action of any signifigance.
Then I don't think that's right if you get into a situation where there's clearly an immediate threat of military agression. That is the one case where the Hitler/WWII analogy is apt. So we will have to agree to disagree.
Also, while the Chinese did not have troops involved in Korea at the time of the President's intervention, they were supplying the North.
So? They were supplying them in Vietnam, too, as were the Russians.
Keep in mind -- whether right or wrong -- that has been enough for many key politcal figures to justify the invasion of Iran right now. So I simply considered China as an important factor at that point, if you'll excuse me.
There's no justification to invade Iran just as there wasn't justification to invade China as part of the Korean War if that was to take place before China got actively involved. It's about protection, not pre-empition.
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Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
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rogue_wookiee
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:49am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 11:55am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
rogue_wookiee
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snap-hiss posted:
KnightWriter posted:
All I have to say is may the economy have mercy on us all if some form of universal health care is passed into law or Iran is invaded.
Yes, God forbid we ensure that all our citizens have some form of health care. We wouldn't want that.
Amen.
!snap
Amen indeed, snap-hiss. I do not desire health insurance either. I would much prefer to pay physical money for my own illnesses and needs while not paying for some obese stranger's via my taxes. But you know I actually work for my paychecks and I take care of myself because understand that most serious illness is preventable.
EDIT: Stardude is right. We are derailing the thread. If anyone has further questions or comments for me feel free to PM them as this is my last post in this thread on this topic.
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“You’re probably the biggest taxer in the country, even bigger than the Congress,” - Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve. Be aware of inflation and how it affects our daily life. http://mises.org/story/2914 -What You Should Know About Inflation
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/10 11:58am
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
- Date Edited:
5/10 12:11pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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Amen indeed, snap-hiss. I do not desire health insurance either. I would much prefer to pay physical money for my own illnesses and needs while not paying for some obese stranger's via my taxes. But you know I actually work for my paychecks and I take care of myself because understand that most serious illness is preventable.
You clearly have not had any personal experience with either a chronic illness or a severe injury. I assure you that either you will, or someone close to you will. If you feel like paying several hundred dollars a visit to see a specialist, or tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to deal with injuries resulting from a car accident or any number of other situations that can be through no fault of your own, more power to you. However, please understand that I and many others do desire health insurance, and that I and many others do not desire paying high fees that are high in part because insurance companies make them that way.
This thread can also be directly moved into the Senate, and it may be a good way to keep the discussion going. I don't think there's much chance of discussing its artistic merits without going into detail about politics and social issues.
I'm not going to say who it is, but there's a JCer who's currently dealing with major health issues, resulting mostly from about a minute of their life (not quite an accident, but definitely not really their fault). This person or their family is likely paying a ton of money, and that's with insurance. Without, I'm sure the total cost would be at least a hundred thousand dollars. I'm also sure they're not alone in that around here.
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snap-hiss
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
5/10 12:00pm
Subject:
RE: First Look: Oliver Stone's Bush biopic
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KnightWriter posted:
Amen indeed, snap-hiss. I do not desire health insurance either. I would much prefer to pay physical money for my own illnesses and needs while not paying for some obese stranger's via my taxes. But you know I actually work for my paychecks and I take care of myself because understand that most serious illness is preventable.
You clearly have not had any personal experience with either a chronic illness or a severe injury. I assure you that either you will, or someone close to you will. If you feel like paying several hundred dollars a visit to see a specialist, or tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars to deal with injuries resulting from a car accident or any number of other situations that can be through no fault of your own, more power to you.
Exactly. I have health insurance and currently owe over 5 grand from an appendectomy. No amount of broccoli and exercise could prevent that (unfortunately).
!snap
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