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Topic:
The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 1:44pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I've got a question for you guys: I'm more into fantasy myself, and in general I've learned to quickly distinguish a good book from a not so good one. How do you do it with sci-fi books? I mean, everywhere I go there're all these sci-fi books getting rave reviews, and then I'll talk to friends who say they suck. How do I get firmly established with the good ones?
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SCOTSSITHLORD
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 2:31pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I would certainly recommend Stephen Donaldson's Gap series, epic sci-fi with loads of interesting characters, and so many plot twists, you have to stay sharp just to keep up.
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Maveric
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 8:09pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Mastadge
When I am looking for new authors to read I pick up the latest anthology. I can usually find a couple of authors to read from those.
I really enjoyed Timothy Zahn's Conqueror's saga. It is a short trilogy that should not consume much time.
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Ender
Registered:
Aug '98
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 8:12pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I would certainly recommend Stephen Donaldson's Gap series, epic sci-fi with loads of interesting characters, and so many plot twists, you have to stay sharp just to keep up.
Another recommendation here. One of my favorite sci-fi series.
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Gandalf the Grey
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I tend to prefer novels in the fantasy genre and short stories in the science fiction genre. The annual Nebula awards anthologies, L. Ron Hubbard’s Writers of the Future, The Year's Best Science Fiction annual anthology, and a few others are what I generally read.
With fantasy, I like big, sprawling worlds that I can just fall into or dashing tales of daring-do. With science fiction, I like short stories that challenge my imagination or tweak my sense of humor.
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L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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Kadue
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 9:05pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Can we please keep to actual discussion of books, not just saying what you like and don't like.
For me, I've always been partial to the classical science fiction writers like Asimov, Campbell, and their ilk. Their writing is based in the science of the time, and for the most part seeks to give legitimate explanations for why some of the science that they have works. While many writers like Bear, Benford, and Brin do this, most writers seem to take some of the technology for granted and just say that it is there without giving any of the grounds for it.
When talking to some people about the older stories, many point out to what seems like a naivety in the stories, but that is one of their charms to me. A lot of these stories were written 60-80 years ago, and so of course the times have changed. Now the emphasis in books is on the action, while in the past it was the story itself and the science that drove them, usually to the point that fights were done in a paragraph at best, or avoided through quick thinking or logic.
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SPECTOR
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/13/02 10:28pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Amen Kadue!
I personally love Asimov's Foundation series for presisely those reasons. He did the best he could with the scientific knowledge of the time. He even later said that he wished he had left out some stuff that pertained to the length of time radioactivity would remain in a area after a nuke had exploded.
To quote Michael Wong, "Sci-fi sucks when it ignores science."
It is actually the most annoying part of EU. If Luke, Leia, and Han etc are doing bad then the bad guys in general are winning, like in BFC. The minute they are doing good, the bad guys roll over and die.
That is how I measure whether or not the sci-fi is good Mastadge. Can the author put me in the story? Do I feel emersed in the environment? Do I find myself wondering, " Could this really happen in 100, 1000 years etc.?"
I fell enticed after the first chapter, desparate to get to the next, and before I know it, the books over and it's two in the morning. 
Specs 
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 4:20am
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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It is actually the most annoying part of EU. If Luke, Leia, and Han etc are doing bad then the bad guys in general are winning, like in BFC. The minute they are doing good, the bad guys roll over and die.
A common misconception about Star Wars is that it's science fiction. It's not. It's classic fantasy with some sf trappings which tend to confuse people into thinking it's sf. But come on: magic, damsels in distress, the farmboy who learns he holds this great power, the old mentor wizard, the seasoned sidekick and the bickering, wisecracking sidekicks. Sure it's ships instead of horses and sabers instead of swords, but it's fantasy. Not science fiction.
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More devotedly than ever before."
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SPECTOR
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 5:30am
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I would agree with that as far as the movies go, but not with the books. The EU went away from the fantasy genre a long time ago. For example, most fantasy books have a clear "hero". That hero tends to be pure and good, unless he/she is in a ancient tragidy. In the tragidy the hero normally has a character flaw. Fantasies also have a clear cut "bad guy". The hero is almost always on a mission to kill the bad guy. In the movies we saw all these elements. The "hero", Luke Skywalker, the "bad guy", Darth Vader/Emporer Palpatine, and Luke's mission to stop the Emporer and save his father. In the latest NJO all I see is a rabble of different characters, none of them the clear cut hero, and all ofthem pulling in separate directions. There is no mission beyond defending themselves. The characters tend to be indecisive at best and just plain foolish at worst. Nearly everything the good guys do in one book is almost completely negated in the next, and the plotlines, what little there are, are so strung out that they almost completely lose their meaning. All of these are characteristics of a poorly, put-to-gather sci-fi series, not a fantasy series.
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Mastadge
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 5:34am
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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For example, most fantasy books have a clear "hero". That hero tends to be pure and good, unless he/she is in a ancient tragidy. In the tragidy the hero normally has a character flaw. Fantasies also have a clear cut "bad guy". The hero is almost always on a mission to kill the bad guy.
In certain fantasy books, yes. But I've certainly read a whole lot where this is not the case. And regardless of heroes and villains, science fiction has to be SCIENTIFICALLY based. That's the whole premise. It's things that could or could have happened. The force, being the equivallent of magic, falls clearly out of that category and makes Star Wars a fantasy in what would typically be a sci-fi setting.
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"This will be our reply to violence:
To make music more intensely,
More beautifully,
More devotedly than ever before."
- Leonard Bernstein
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Kadue
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 7:00am
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Star Wars belongs in that miasma that is science fiction/fantasy. It, like many other stories, has parts that are exclusive to both genres, yet does not fill the full definition of either.
To quote Michael Wong, "Sci-fi sucks when it ignores science."
So true, it just becomes fiction then. The science is one of the things that got me so enthralled with the old SF novels that my father had in our library, and is why I have read nearly all of them.
As to the Foundation series, that has to be one of the best SF series ever written. Of them all, I have to say that Prelude to Foundation is the best of them all. As Asimov got older, the style of his books changed, and by the time Forward the Foundation was written, it became more self orientated, and gave in to the more modern style of story telling.
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Isbeth
Title: Maryland FanForce
Hospitality Mistress
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Oh, Kadue, very well said.
My dear Mastadge, I think Star Wars is science fiction. I don't like fantasy.
My favorite science fiction books are always found on Andrew Fraknoi's list and I always consult there when looking for some good sci-fi to read, although not exclusively. Check it out at the web site:
Andy's Sci-Fi Book List
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"We are not saints, but seekers", Obi Wan quoting Jedi wisdom in THE DARK RIVAL, J.A. # 2.
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Gandalf the Grey
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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I definitely consider Star Wars to be fantasy. The idea that fantasy is all about magic swords, heroes riding around on horses, and a world that resembles a sanitized version of Europe from 800-1400 AD is a really common one, and rather inaccurate. It’s in large part thanks to Tolkien that that stereotype exists, and I think that it has hurt the genre over the long term.
Fantasy is most definitely not confined to swords and sorcery, especially in terms of short fiction. A few recent fantasy stories I think to be of particular note that break the pattern are Ted Chiang’s Hell is the absence of God (a sort of modern fable and religious commentary set in not-quite our times), Naomi Kritzer’s The Golem (about a Golem being created in the middle of the second World War), and Sherwood Smith’s Mom and Dad on the Home Front (a witty look at parents who have kids go one magical adventures on other worlds). There are longer novels as well. Off the top of my head, Neil Gaiman’s American Gods and Neverwhere and just about everything else he writes, Matthew Woodring Stover’s Heroes Die, Dennis L. McKiernan’s Caverns of Socrates, etc.
Fantasy is not about magic rings, evil Dark Lords of Ultimate Evil Bent on Taking Over the World, or The Last Battle (version 42.5.1).
On the other hand, Star Wars is an almost perfectly traditional fantasy story. The classical Heroes Journey happens, every single step. There are magic swords, heroes riding around (in X-Wing’s which usurp the role of horses), Knights in shining armor (I’m Luke Skywalker. I’ve come to rescue you!  ), an Evil Dark Lord of Ultimate Evil Bent on Taking Over the Galaxy, and a Last Battle (version 42.5.2).
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I play far, far too much World of Warcraft.
L70s on Staghelm: Hopefire (Paladin), Silverbow (Hunter), Shadowhope (Rogue), Silverfire (Mage)
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Caine
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 3:46pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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Actually, I find that most science fiction is really fantasy. If there exists an element of magic or faith in some exotic but relevant practice in the book (telekinesis, for example), it's basically fantasy without some of the constructs which may inhibit the fantasy genre (technology, for example).
I really don't draw a distinction between fantasy and science fiction.
Carl Sagan and works similar to his may be an exception to this rule.
The characters [in the NJO] tend to be indecisive at best and just plain foolish at worst. Nearly everything the good guys do in one book is almost completely negated in the next, and the plotlines, what little there are, are so strung out that they almost completely lose their meaning.
As an avid reader of the NJO, I feel must come to its defense here  The NJO really brings Star Wars and the EU to a different, realistic and interesting level of storytelling: one that it sorely needed, based on my little experience with prior EU material. Chaos in war, a sense of mortality for all characters, ambivalence, indecision and vacillating emotions all enhance the reading experience precisely for the reasons you mention take away from it.
I read the NJO because it marks a decisive difference from the boring, predictable and unengaging material which generally preceded it. Before, I think you could read a Star Wars book and probably predict, to the very chapter, a pattern of consistency which marred the EU.
It's safe, it's structured to imitate the movies and in a universe characterized by time, nothing really changed before. The heroes emerge from the previous conflict ready to take on the next one unscathed, except for a few scratches.
Well, now it has. These characters are questioning themselves, there is no absolute "right" course of action for the Jedi and they will never be the same because of the toll this war has taken on them personally and those they love.
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Isbeth
Title: Maryland FanForce
Hospitality Mistress
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/14/02 3:57pm
Subject:
RE: The Mayflower: The JC Sci-fi Book Club
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There is a big difference, check out the books on Andy's list.
Gandolf, what is the name of that book that is fantasy that takes place in the Aztec/Mayan world?  I gave it to my engineer and can't for the life of me remember its name. Kinda cool with stories based around the mythology and life style and place of the Aztecs and Mayans. It is a very old book too. I think it was written in the thirties.
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"We are not saints, but seekers", Obi Wan quoting Jedi wisdom in THE DARK RIVAL, J.A. # 2.
"I want to see the color of your eyes in the wind at my side"-Xanatos in Ashes by Lia Jinn
Inside Outer Space, Visit Your Local Planetarium.
Gold 2,Lt.Colonel,EUDF
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