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Topic:
Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/19 8:53am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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DarthIntegral posted:
He's not staring down one or two major rivals, he's staring down a large group of guys who, while none of them individually have all the tools, each have enough tools to challenge.
Jack still had that too, besides the legitimate rivals.
Hell, I even forgot to mention Tom Watson. 
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George_Roper
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/19 8:59am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
- Date Edited:
6/19 9:03am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
George_Roper
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Tiger doesn't have a rival because he is such a great golfer. You can't fault him for that. It doesn't detract from what he's accomplished. If a guy like Els had played 30 years ago, I think he would have won more than he has.
If the field when Jack played was as strong as it is now, or if Woods had played back then, he wouldn't have won as many as he did. If Jack played now, he'd have even more 2nd place finishes.
As for the equipment, didn't Mickelson say a few years back that Woods was playing with inferior equipment (his driving distance had stayed more or less the same but that others had made huge gains)? I know he's made the change now, but he took quite a while.
EDIT: out of curiosity, does anyone know how many times Jack finished second behind one of his rivals in a Major?
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DT421
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:07am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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One question - how exactly is the field stronger now, than when it was in Jack's heyday?
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Rogue...Jedi
Title: Arena Manager
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:17am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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Quick note - not counting his major appearances since '86, when he won his last major, Nicklaus made 108 major starts, winning 18 and finishing 2nd in 19. Tiger has 52 starts, with 14 wins and 5 second place finishes. He's on pace to match Jack in top-2s and make several more wins.
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George_Roper
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:36am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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DT421 posted:
One question - how exactly is the field stronger now, than when it was in Jack's heyday?
How is it not? He may have had a more highly regarded group of rivals but perhaps that's just because they were so much better than the average professional at the time and therefore able to win a bunch of majors. I can't think of many sports where the players don't tend to get better over time with advances in training, etc. As someone mentioned already, the average professional as a group is better able to challenge for 1st today.
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MarcusP2
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:45am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
- Date Edited:
6/19 9:52am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MarcusP2
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Both of those add up to around the same.
18 + 19 = 37.
28 + 10 = 38 (off 104 starts, assuming he continues.)
So if Tiger is close, he wins it, more often than not. Is Tiger going to win 28 majors? Highly unlikely. But you can't really say he doesn't contend as often.
And I think the field comment was that the new equipment has brought everyone up to the level. Player (Palmer won only two majors again after Nicklaus won his first (63 + 64), and finished second once, I think). Player won 5 after Nicklaus arrived. In the same time frame of Tiger's career, Vijay's won 3, Mickelson's won 3 (and come second in 4), Els has 2, 2 seconds and 2 thirds...it's not like there are no players out there contending with him. He just beats them, usually.
However, Jack's greatest feat, in my book, was being a legitimate top contender to majors for over 20 years. If Tiger can match that, then hands down he's the best, no matter the competition.
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Rogue...Jedi
Title: Arena Manager
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:50am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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And I think the field comment was that the new equipment has brought everyone up to the level. Player (Palmer won only two majors again after Nicklaus won his first (63 + 64), and finished second once, I think). Player won 5 after Nicklaus arrived. In the same time frame of Tiger's career, Vijay's won 3, Mickelson's won 3 (and come second in 4), Els has 2, 2 seconds and 2 thirds...it's not like there are no players out there contending with him. He just beats them, usually.
Exactly.
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George_Roper
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
6/19 10:08am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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MarcusP2 posted:
So if Tiger is close, he wins it, more often than not. Is Tiger going to win 28 majors? Highly unlikely.
I wouldn't put it past him. I believe he's averaging just over 1 major per season despite what...3 seasons where he didn't win while working on swing adjustments? And his last 3.5 years has just been scary. 10 more years at that average gets him to 25. Given his level of fitness (assuming his knee will be okay, which according to his doctors it will be) and mental toughness, I see no reason why he wouldn't still be a force well into his forties.
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Onoto
Title: Risk Host
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
6/19 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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On the issue of competitiveness: it has been shown in other sports, even in sports with as much contrast as baseball and football, that over time the margin between the extreme and the average narrows. The outliers do not lie out as far as the game ages. This is not due to inferior play by the greats, but rather to better play by the majority. Equipment improvements, youth involvement, and tactical adaption all serve to level the field to a certain extent. There's no reason to think that that is not the case in golf, which makes Tiger Woods' striking superiority even more impressive.
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DarthDuckie
Registered:
Jan '04
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Date Posted:
6/19 9:17pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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A couple of years ago I thought that some of the younger guys like Garcia, Scott, Baddeley etc may be able to close in on Tiger and foot it with him. But it just hasn't happened. Those guys can look great on any given day, but they're a still a million miles away from him when it comes to delivering the goods when it absolutely, positively has to be delivered.
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Zaz
Title: Manager:
The Amphitheatre
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
8/6 9:26pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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That's true, and it's really odd. None of them have come on to challenge him.
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Onoto
Title: Risk Host
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
8/6 9:39pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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He is Ted Williams to everyone else's Mario Mendoza.
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DaenaBenjen42
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
8/6 10:32pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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Um... hate to be a killjoy on this matter, but... Tiger Woods has never won the grand slam of golf. That being: All four major golf tournaments in a single year. The only golfer, to my knowledge, ever to do that amazing feat was Bobby Jones. (Unless I'm mistaken, which I could very well be.)
However... Tiger Woods IS a wonderful golfer, and one of the best in the sport. 
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Rogue...Jedi
Title: Arena Manager
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
8/6 11:03pm
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
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Bobby Jones, however, was before the Masters, when the 'grand slam' included two amateur championships, a different matter entirely. No man has ever won the modern grand slam - the closest is Tiger Woods, since he did win them all within the spam of a year, just not a calendar year. Which, honestly, is just as impressive. He still held all four trophies at the same time.
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George_Roper
Title: RICHARDSON/Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
8/7 8:29am
Subject:
RE: Tiger Woods: the best there ever was?
- Date Edited:
8/7 8:30am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
George_Roper
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It's a tremendous feat but the true Slam would surpass it. With the Tiger slam you have a chance to get the first win everything you take part in a Major. With the Slam you only get one chance a year.
But he could finish his career without having won the Slam and still be the greatest ever.
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