Armenian_Jedi posted:People can say he went out on a bad play... but that's all it was, one play. His last season was one of the best of his career. His team went 13-3 and made it to the NFC Championship game. That's a pretty damn good season. And for everyone talking about him not being great in the clutch... the reputation of him throwing an INT in clutch situations is pretty much just from the last half decade. In his prime, Favre ALWAYS led his team down the field when they needed it late in the game.
Lord_NoONE posted:Oh, Aaron Rodgers is the image of Brett Favre. He was amazing at Cal.
Armenian_Jedi posted:... yeah, let's all judge every single athlete by the last 5 years of their careers... we'd have almost no great players. and the last 5 years weren't when Favre racked up the numbers to break the records. That happened in his first ten seasons in Green Bay. He broke the records in the last 5 seasons, but that was because of the numbers he put up in his prime. Don't make silly posts full of nonsense.
JMJacenSolo posted:Armenian_Jedi posted:... yeah, let's all judge every single athlete by the last 5 years of their careers... we'd have almost no great players. and the last 5 years weren't when Favre racked up the numbers to break the records. That happened in his first ten seasons in Green Bay. He broke the records in the last 5 seasons, but that was because of the numbers he put up in his prime. Don't make silly posts full of nonsense. Not at all what I said. I'm just saying you can't just cherry pick the great parts of his career, especially since his longevity is one of the things that makes him great. As I said in the NFL thread, Favre has probably the single worst playoff resume of any quarterback since the year 2000. That's not "nonsense", it's just facts.
Armenian_Jedi posted:JMJacenSolo posted:Armenian_Jedi posted:... yeah, let's all judge every single athlete by the last 5 years of their careers... we'd have almost no great players. and the last 5 years weren't when Favre racked up the numbers to break the records. That happened in his first ten seasons in Green Bay. He broke the records in the last 5 seasons, but that was because of the numbers he put up in his prime. Don't make silly posts full of nonsense. Not at all what I said. I'm just saying you can't just cherry pick the great parts of his career, especially since his longevity is one of the things that makes him great. As I said in the NFL thread, Favre has probably the single worst playoff resume of any quarterback since the year 2000. That's not "nonsense", it's just facts. He's played in 8 playoff games since 2000... he had two really horrible games. a 6 interception one and a 4 interception one... but take those two games out and he has 11 TD's and 6 INT's in the other 6 games.
Sal Paolantonio posted: We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check. Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media. After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers. Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse. Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions. That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks. In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January. In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions. Brett Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Fellow Packer star quarterback Bart Starr, above, was 9-1. In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason. But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Manning. If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked. But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism. Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer. Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'. Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts. But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked. Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants. Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception! Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains.
JMJacenSolo posted:Sal Paolantonio keeps it real. Sal Paolantonio posted: We interrupt the continued deification of Brett Favre -- a first-ballot Hall of Famer and the most durable player in NFL history -- with the following reality check. Yes, Favre played long enough to throw the most touchdown passes and collect the most wins by an NFL quarterback. But let's examine the second half of No. 4's career. The truth is, Favre did little over the past decade to earn the gushing praise heaped upon him by our fawning brethren in the media. After beating the San Francisco 49ers in the 1997 NFC Championship Game, Favre won just three of his last 10 playoff games. Eli Manning had more postseason wins in a 29-day span this past season than Favre had in his last decade with the Green Bay Packers. Yes, Favre won a Super Bowl -- 11 years ago! But as his career arc spiraled downward, the blind adulation only got worse. Favre's passer rating in his last 12 postseason games was a pedestrian 77.8. In his last five wild-card games, he went 2-3 with more interceptions (nine) than touchdown passes (seven). In his last three divisional playoff games, he went 1-2 with seven TDs and seven interceptions. That's a 3-5 record with 14 touchdown passes and 16 picks. In two of his last four postseason appearances, Favre threw two of the most unthinkable playoff interceptions in NFL history, both in overtime -- to Brian Dawkins of the Philadelphia Eagles in 2003 and to Corey Webster of the New York Giants in January. In fact, Favre is the only quarterback in NFL history to throw overtime interceptions in two playoff games. In his last nine playoff games, Favre threw 18 interceptions. Brett Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Fellow Packer star quarterback Bart Starr, above, was 9-1. In the first 81 years of the Green Bay franchise, the most hallowed in all of pro football, the Packers were 13-0 at home in the postseason. But since 2002, the Packers have gone 2-3 in playoff games at Lambeau Field, with Favre losing to three not-quite Hall of Fame quarterbacks: Michael Vick, Daunte Culpepper and Manning. If Manning had a decade like that, he'd be run out of New York. If Philip Rivers kept chucking ridiculous overtime interceptions in the postseason, he would be branded a first-round bust. If Drew Brees came up short in three out of five home playoff games, he'd be mocked. But no matter how many dumb passes he threw and how many playoff games he lost, Favre remains immune to criticism. Favre isn't even the greatest quarterback in the history of the Packers. It's not even close. Bart Starr won five NFL championships -- four more than Favre -- and retired as the NFL's most accurate passer. Oh, you say Starr was surrounded by a Hall of Fame roster with a legendary coach. But Starr still is the NFL record holder with a 104.8 career playoff passer rating, nearly 20 points higher than Favre's. That wasn't Vince Lombardi or Ray Nitschke throwing those passes for Starr, whose career postseason passer rating, by the way, is 38 points higher than Johnny Unitas'. Favre's career playoff record was 12-10. Starr's was 9-1 -- without the benefit of wild-card games. Favre threw 28 interceptions in 22 playoff games. Starr threw three in 10. Think about that -- just three picks in 213 postseason attempts. But Bart Starr gets the Ringo Starr treatment -- underappreciated and overlooked. Favre gets put on a pedestal. Yes, he had a Pro Bowl season in 2007 with the youngest roster in the NFL. But his final moment on Lambeau Field was a wildly errant pass that turned into the NFC title for the Giants. Indeed, a decade after his last moments of glory, the football hype machine continues to paint Favre as a hallowed icon of Americana, a symbol of all that is right with sports, a Wild West gun-slinging good ol' boy. There's Brett on the farm! There's Brett with his family! There's Brett on the cover of Sports Illustrated! There's Brett throwing another overtime interception! Favre was among the best in the game, once upon a time. Those days are long gone. Only the idolatry remains.
Aaron Schatz posted:Was Brett Favre the greatest quarterback in NFL history? Yes -- and no. Your opinion depends on what it means to be the "greatest of all time." Are we talking about the quarterback who had the greatest four- to five-year peak, during which he dominated the game? Or are we talking about the quarterback who gave his team the most value over an entire career? Most of the time, when we talk about the greatest players ever, we sort of fudge the question, not judging on either criterion but rather smushing the two together. When Bill James rated the greatest baseball players ever in his original "Historical Baseball Abstract," he chose a different route; James created two completely different lists, one for peak value and one for career value. That's also how we have to look at Favre's place in NFL history. Favre won three straight MVP awards in the mid-1990s (one shared with Barry Sanders), but that three-year period doesn't even come close to ranking as the greatest three-year performance by an NFL quarterback. At the same time, there aren't many quarterbacks who played as well, for as long, as Favre. In my book, "Pro Football Prospectus 2005," I published a long statistical analysis of the greatest quarterback seasons in modern NFL history. (It actually started as an ESPN.com piece, which you can read here.) Not a single Favre season finishes in the top 50, and only one (1995) ranks in the top 80. By comparison, Johnny Unitas, Roger Staubach and Peyton Manning each have four seasons in the top 50 (including one Manning season since the book was published). By including both rushing and passing performance, Steve Young comes out with four seasons in the top 20. Favre's best seasons don't rank among the best of all time because his completion percentage just wasn't good enough. Favre set a career high in completion percentage (66.5 percent) his final season, and he never ranked in the top five in completion percentage during his peak years of 1993 through 1997 (although he led the league in 1998). Of course, Favre didn't have a spectacular completion percentage because Green Bay's offense was built on high-risk, high-reward deep passes. Although Favre completed enough of those deep passes to be the best quarterback in the league at the time, he didn't complete enough for those seasons to count among the greatest ever. In his best season, 1995, Favre completed 63 percent of his passes with 12.3 yards per completion. Since 1960, 24 different quarterbacks had at least one season in which they ranked higher in both statistics, including Young four times and Kurt Warner three times. Favre also threw more interceptions and was sacked more frequently than many of the other great quarterbacks in their best years, and most of his best seasons (with the exception of 1996) came against a schedule of defenses that were below average. For most of his career, Favre was very good, but not spectacular. What's spectacular is just how many of those "very good" seasons Favre had. Of course, Favre set all of the all-time passing records over the past two seasons, but what is impressive is that he didn't set those records by sticking around as a mediocre quarterback long after his time had passed. Based on our numbers, Favre had more value in his final season than every quarterback in the league except for Tom Brady and Manning. At Football Outsiders, we use our complex DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average) metric to break down every single play of the season and figure out how good each player is compared to the average player at his position. Our play-by-play database goes back to 1995, so it includes most of Favre's career. Only once, in 1999, does Favre come out as a below-average quarterback -- and just barely. In 2005, Favre threw a league-leading 29 interceptions, and most observers believed he had hit the end of the line. Yet even that year, Favre was an above-average quarterback when you consider his team's schedule. Green Bay played six games that season against the four defenses with the most interceptions -- Cincinnati, Chicago, Minnesota and Carolina -- and another two games against Detroit, which ranked seventh. If we assume that Favre was above-average in his first three seasons as a starter -- a fairly safe assumption -- that means he gave the Green Bay Packers 15 years of above-average play at the game's most important position -- and he did so without missing a game after taking over the position in early 1992. Compare that to the other quarterbacks who are considered to be among the best ever. Joe Montana was injury-prone for the second half of his career. Unitas struggled once he got into his mid-30s. Young had the greatest peak of any quarterback in history, but he played only nine seasons as an NFL starter. Staubach started for only eight. Combine quality and longevity, and the only quarterbacks who can compare to Favre are John Elway and Dan Marino. Many fans would say that the greatest quarterback career in history would have to include at least one championship, and that would narrow it down to Elway and Favre. As to which of those two men had the greatest quarterback career in history, well, we'll let the Denver and Green Bay fans fight it out for the next 10 years. At some point, Manning and/or Brady may pass them both, but nothing guarantees that Manning and Brady will stay consistent and healthy throughout their 30s. Not many quarterbacks do, and that's what made Favre unique.
