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Author	Topic: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 12:45am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	"Who are you talking to? Who told you they weren't?" Sorry, they just seemed like rhetorical questions. "Interesting answers anyway. Why do you think a computer programme has free will? The Merovingian (a computer programme) argues that he doesn't have free will at all. Do you think you know more about his nature then he does?" Well, Smith had free will, it seemed, as did the Oracle (all though it's very possible she didn't). "I was talking about questions raised by The Matrix:Reloaded." And I was saying that these questions were open to your own imagination at the end of the Matrix. Nothing wrong with finding out what happens, I just prefer the "make up your own ending" movies. "You quote my post, ask questions in the same style as the part of my post you quoted, but your questions were actually meant for people who had only seen episodes I and II?" Of course. It's unfair to look at what happens later. I just listed down questions that a "virgin viewer" would ask themself after viewing AOTC. Your last line of questioning will be void when Revolutions comes out, but that doesn't mean they're still questions raised after Reloaded. And, just for kicks, ESB only raises the question of "Would you have accepted Vader as your father and join him, or let go and let fate decide?" Now then, on to the "We need machines" scene. From my pov, there are two ways to do this scene: 1) Have Neo stroll through Zion in the middle of the night and come upon the Chancellor, which then starts a rather long philosophical dialogue, completely stopping the story (to be fair, lots of movies have a break when the heroes are safe, though not this early in the movie ). 2) Have Neo stroll through Zion in the middle of the night and walk by a wall of machinery running Zion. He watches it as he walks by, and then wanders off. I would choose the second choice, as it utilizes that sweet, sweet tool of subtelty. Instead of a dialogue telling people the irony of these people fighting machines, yet using machines to stay alive, it shows machines keeping the humans alive, therefore allowing the viewer to see the irony for themselves. THIS is what an INTELLIGENT film does. The viewer sees the irony instead of being told what the irony is and how it is ironic. Film is a visual medium, remember? Cometgreen
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CeeJay Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 7/29/03 2:09am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Cometgreen - Film is a visual medium, that much is true but when the visuals are extreme the essence of the story can be missed if not balanced out with dialogue. In the case of a film like the MATRIX the average Joe couldn't care less for sci fi techno talk or philisophical ironies etc as long as the scene fast forwards to a good fight and explosion so if the scene with the stroll through the underside of Zion had gone the way you suggested, the point would be utterly lost by most of the audience. The MATRIX films are intelligent, very much so - but most importantly the point you miss is that the main chracter isn't very intelligent. It would be beyond the chraracter of Neo to do such a thing as explore beyond what he's been told or suggested, he is not that much an intellectual, he hasn't mastered thinking for himself as much as he has flexing his muscles in the Matrix. From the very start he has to be told everything and doubt it before learning from experience and progressing from that as a result. The tale hasn't gotten to the point when he can expand his mind as he does his physical abilities, that's for MATRIX Revolutions to cover. Agent Smith realizes that and states as much in their last comfrontation in Reloaded "Still using all the muscles except the one that matters most" That's the character of the chosen one, he's an everyday hands on kid who has to be guided aand taught before he can fully realise what he's capable of and start thinking for himself just like a lot of people watching the film. That scene in the underbelly of Zion was perfect the way it is, you fail to grasp the full importance of it beyond the mere irony of needs of man and machine to co-exist. It also serves as the humbling of Neos position in the real world as opposedt to how many expected him to be after the first film. Many thought because he can manipulate code in the Matrix at the end of the last film, that he would be some sort of GOD in this one. That scene not only shows his humility but also his place in society amongst the real world hierachy, he's only as special as people want to percieive him, he is merely another soldier under the command of higher officials in reality despite his immense abilities beyond that or normal men within the un-reality of the MATRIX. Without the higher ranking offical in that scene, the whole irony of it would not exist and it the segment as you suggested would play off as a mere visual metaphor for the entire trilogy. -----signature----- There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.
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Green_Destiny_Sword Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 4:52am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	COMETGREEN said: think GL has done quite well establishing themes verbally, and then effectively showing them. What are these themes? Where are they shown? TPM establishes a lot of themes, as it is the first of the saga. Many themes are mentioned once or twice, and then are continually shown throughout the entire saga. What theme has been developed in the saga of the PT? When you have people making threads, “Should TPM have been a prologue?” or “Was TPM Necessary?” , I question any significant themes being established. TMR does this, but it makes sure that you understand what theme the scene is addressing. But I must applaud the Wachowskis for the "Smith is a virus" plot. It's hard to tell if they intended it, as they didn't remind people of the virus talk in the original Matrix. Right. So the whole scene where Agent Smith tells a handcuffed, drugged Morpheus, that the only species that consumes and destroys the ecosystem in the same fashion as humans, is the virus, he was not making the same point. He actually says the line “HUMAN BEINGS ARE A VIRUS”! And now as has been pointed out by myself and others in this forum, as Smith becomes more human, due to his established connection with Neo, he too has become a virus, in the symbolic and electronic sense. He is downloading his avatar into beings in the matrix and even into Bane in the real world. He is becoming the very thing he once despised. This is character development. This is theme development. How could you possibly state that there was no “virus talk” in the original?? The interrogation scene is one of the pivotal scenes of the film! You are just proving your arguments have zero credibility because you don’t even know what you’re talking about. So, we have two ways of looking at it. They did it on purpose, which means the Wachowskis have the ability to learn of the largest necessity of great filmmaking, subtelty. If they didn't do it on purpose, then the plot is another stoner moment. "Woah, what if we had hundreds of Hugo Weavings all crammed into a white hallway? That would be wicked cool!" Once again, completely incorrect premise. No point. Zero credibility. But of course, this brilliant move by the Wachowskis is wasted on the Smith vs Neo fight. I guess I finally understand when people connect a movie sequence with a video game. I mean, in the droid factory sequence, the characters develop a little, and still moves the story forward. Wow. Please tell me the character development of the droid factory scene? Or how it advances the story? Even AOTC fans point to that scene as the one that was the most unnecessary in the film! But the Neo fight tells us what we all ready know: Smith can clone himself, and Neo is unbeatable. Neo is unbeatable. Which is why he destroyed all the Smiths right? He was almost done before he threw all the clones off of him and flew away. The point of the scene from a fight standpoint is that he could NOT beat Smith, even though entering the fight, he clearly thought he could. Neo enters the film not just confident in his skills, but cocky as we see with the first set of Agents. Fighting Smith clearly humbled him. We he unplugs on the Neb, is he smiling and saying “ahh…that was easy. I took that fool down.”?? No. He is wheezing and grimacing in obvious pain. He learned that Smith with his ability is more powerful than he ever imagined. Neither character grows or learns something from this five minute fight. It literally stops the movie to keep you awake. "Stopping a film to keep you awake” I don’t know what that means. But certainly, there is growth and much learned in the scene. Smith explains to Neo that their explosion in the original somehow led to an exchange of code between the two and as a result neo is gaining new abilities and becoming more machine like while Smith has gained new abilities and is becoming more human-like. They are on an inverse path that will collide again. We also learn that Machines and programs like Smith still long for a purpose. That merely existing is not enough. It is ‘why’ we exist that matters. And "growth" is a huge theme in TMR. I'm sorry you missed it. And, like most of the fight scenes, it's redundant. Neo hits clone, Neo hits clone, Neo gets pole, Neo hits clone, Neo hits clone, bullet time, Neo hits clone, bullet time, bullet time, Neo spins around. This type of critique is never very effective. Every fight scene ever could be reduced to that. Bruce Lee kicks someone, Bruce Lee punches someone, Jet Li blocks kick, Jet Li kicks back, Rambo throws knife, Rambo shoots down regiment. And so on. And it can very easily be applied to TPM. But just because I can give a simple description does not mean the scene was not good. I thought that action of the Smith neo fight was incredible. For one, unlike almost any other action scenes you will see, no moves are repeated. Plus the speed and grace with which reeves moves tops almost all other American fight scenes I have ever seen. Then there is the fact you are seeing wide shots of action sequences, as opposed to cut and edited action (like when we see Maul’s saber get sliced in half and a foot hitting in the face from off-screen then cut to another shot of him flying on his back. The guys in TMR are doing much longer, and far more impressive sequences. Please feel free to offer scenes that match or exceed it. I love discussing fights/martial arts scenes. And all though I loved the freeway sequence, the Morpheus/Agent fight is pathetic. Morpheus loses his balance, regains his balance. Morpheus loses his balance, regains his balance. Morpheus loses his balance, regains his balance. Again, I don’t see this as a real critique. It's no longer suspenseful after happening two times in the last minute. I think the suspense was when he actually fell off and Niobe caught him. And the dramtic moment is when she tells her ex-man “go kick his a@#” at which point the entire audience knows Morph is about to pull off some type off ill maneuver now that his lady has just ordered him to. His lunge onto the truck and kick of the agent was a great ending to that fight sequence. Again, I welcome you to offer scenes from the PT that were better. AOTC had terrible action. The chase was mediocre and talk about redundant. What is the point of doing the same scene in every movie just in a different venue? Oh yeah…it’s “poetry”. Lol. The Jango/Obi Wan clash was the best action scene in the movie. The droid factory scene looked ridiculously fake and brought nothing to the table. The Anakin/Obi Wan v. Dooku duels were about 15 seconds each and were unimpressive. Not to mention it was ridiculous that Anakin would suddenly and inexplicably open up his defense and basically hold his arm out for Dooku to chop off. The Yoda fight scene not only was laugh-inducing and disgraceful to Yoda’s character, it was a complete rip-off of Sonic the Hedgehog. Instead, GL decided to make it 'Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD', I guess to avoid any copyright infringement issues. Talk about a 'video game' look. -----signature----- "Like most things, I am nothing. It is the same for this sword, it's all simply a state of mind..." -- Li Mu Bai "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" -- President Bush blatantly lying to America. www.downingstreetmemo.com -- The T
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 5:32am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	what in THE FILM, other than a title of a DVD chapter, do you see as evidence of Lucas putting story first? The fact that he tells an interesting and compelling narrative, using special effects techniques to enhance the story without becoming a distraction. Remember, Lucas is the one who said that special effects should not become the story but should be used to the story in a more interesting way. and what does any of that have to do with the quality of execution of said story? Because you have to have a good story before you can worry about the execution. The Wachowski Bros. clearly fell into the trap of style over story, thinking that if they used a "clever" filmmaking style then it would make up for the fact that they actually had a weak story. By putting the story first, Lucas is able to use his masterful filmmaking techniques in service to the story, and the fact that people are now starting to refer to TPM as a classic film tells me that this has paid off in spades. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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Scott3eyez Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 5:59am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	>>> In the case of a film like the MATRIX the average Joe couldn't care less for sci fi techno talk or philisophical ironies etc as long as the scene fast forwards to a good fight and explosion Ironically, I found myself waiting for a break in what I saw as pointless action for a bit of plot for most of the film, then by the time it got to the climax of the film, waiting for a break in the long-winded exposition for a bit more slow motion martial arts… >>> what in THE FILM, other than a title of a DVD chapter, do you see as evidence of Lucas putting story first? What do I see as evidence? Primarily, the fact that the film was clearly structured as Act One of a twelve hour, three act saga rather than a standalone film/FX showcase. And also the fact that the majority of the special effects are designed to NOT stand out as “Ooh! Look at that!” special effects (as opposed to the Matrix’s slow motion, bullet time, spinning cameras etc) but with the goal of being as unobtrusive as possible. >>>and what does any of that have to do with the quality of execution of said story? Not much, but that’s a different subject… >>> What theme has been developed in the saga of the PT? When you have people making threads, “Should TPM have been a prologue?” or “Was TPM Necessary?” , I question any significant themes being established. Interesting that in those threads, the answer seemed to be “no” and “yes” respectively… >>> How could you possibly state that there was no “virus talk” in the original?? And now I’m questioning whether you read the very sentence (don’t know who posted it) that you copied and pasted into your own post: “as they didn't remind people of the virus talk in the original Matrix.” >>> The guys in TMR are doing much longer, and far more impressive sequences. Please feel free to offer scenes that match or exceed it. I love discussing fights/martial arts scenes. Off the top of my head (cos I saw it on Saturday): most of Once Upon a Time in China? >>> Not to mention it was ridiculous that Anakin would suddenly and inexplicably open up his defense and basically hold his arm out for Dooku to chop off. I thought it was pretty clear from the preceeding sequence that Dooku was completely in control of Anakin’s moves in that fight- hence their looking more like they were dancing than fighting, lightsabers weren’t actually touching, Anakin’s style being completely different to how he’d previously fought and much more like Dooku’s… (And at least it’s consistent with his style in ROTJ! ) >>> Instead, GL decided to make it 'Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD', I guess to avoid any copyright infringement issues. Not really relevant, but I love it when people talk about “such and such on LSD” when talking about something that bears no relationship to either someone on, or something someone might see when on LSD… JenX. >>> Agent Scott3eyez: It's her. Nice! No- I can assure you that there's no "group mind" going on- it's just that I think I raised the "pseudo intellectual" point ages back, and I thought it had been put to bed. Didn't realise someone else had brought it up again. Anyway, I have a Matrix question. How come in every “matrix explained” essay I read, there’s a big deal about “machines can’t understand love- this is why they will fail”, but the way Persephone (a program, right?) can understand so much about an individual’s love from a single kiss in never addressed? -----signature----- I can't see smilies! \|-o-\| <-o-> \|-o-\| ____:>o<:____ Spoiler free since 20th July 2001. Cigarette free since 27th August 2003. Smoking is easier to quit. "Fate is sealed inside a bomb, The masterpiece is done, the war has won."
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 6:06am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	"Despite all the hyperbole to the contrary, Lucas puts the story first." From the Annotated Screenplays... Irvin Kershner: "If you look closely at the the picture, you'll see giant sets, but you see them only briefly. Usually, in Hollywood pictures, when yuou have gian sets, you pull back and show them. But here the sets were not important; it was the people in the sets that were important. If you look at the scene in the big hangar where Leia is briefing the Rebel soldiers, it's huge, yet you see it for just a few seconds. I never wanted to say, "I'm going to show th sets' I wanted to show a piece here, a piece there, and eventually the audience would put it all together in their heads. You see more of a set if you show it in pieces around the shots than if you show it in a long shot. If I ever used a long shot, it was for an emotional effect, not to show the sets." (I'm sure even Durwood would agree that Kershner knows what a long shot entails.) George Lucas: "Those movies were so big and they were so hard to do that I just felt that I couldn't deal with all the issues and be on the set every day at the same time. I decided not to direct so that i could get an overview of the whole thing, which meant i could oversee the shooting but didn't have to be on the set all the time. There was a lot of work with these movies, and you really had to take a step back in order to make it work." Step back, George! Irvin Kershner: "Instead of showing Luke's ship overhead, I just showed the light on Yoda's face. I felt it was more powerful than having another special effects shot of the spaceship." Agreed. -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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AdamBertocci Title: Manager: Fan Films Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 6:45am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Just for the hell of it, if anyone cares what I do with my life, I'm going to answer questions that weren't posed to me. Tell me, in Neo's position, which door would you have taken, heck, which pill would you have taken? Blue pill. That's the one that lets you just live in the Matrix normally and forget Morpheus found ya, right? Is Neo a freedom fighter, a terrorist, or just another means of control? Means of control. (note: have not seen Reloaded. Am ignoring the next few Matrix questions as they seem to rely on TMR knowledge.) And how is it all going to end? Can Zion be saved? Can the humans that are still plugged into the Matrix be freed? My personal prediction for the series' end is that the entire Matrix is going to cave in on itself. Crash. Think the 'blue screen of death' on perma-display. This will take the humans with it. All will have been for naught for both sides. Tell me, in Anakin's position, would you have slaughtered the Tuskens? Well... not ALL of them. Would you have blamed Obiwan, who is the only father you'll ever have, for all of your problems? No. Does Anakin have free will, or is he a slave to the will of the force? Free will. Though destiny does step in at crucial moments. Is Anakin the Chosen One, or was Qui-gon mistaken? He is. Rick McCallum loves you! -----signature----- "Run Leia Run", "The Chopped-Off Hands of Star Wars" and "The Fan Film Menace"... ... and now the award-winning "Brooklyn Force". Check 'em out. http://www.runleiarun.com
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qui-gon-kim Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:43am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	what in THE FILM, other than a title of a DVD chapter, do you see as evidence of Lucas putting story first Besides the above examples, consider that in the DVD commentaries, Lucas doesn't talk AT ALL about special effects, CGI, green screen, miniatures, etc. All he talks about is story, plot, charater's motivations and dvelopment. All the technical stuff is handled by the other commentators.
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 8:31am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Not to mention it was ridiculous that Anakin would suddenly and inexplicably open up his defense and basically hold his arm out for Dooku to chop off. My impression has always been that the force with which Dooku struck Anakin's saber caused his arm to swing away from his body. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 8:35am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	I'd agree with that assessment. It's a Sith method to put an opponent off-guard for the coup de grace, kind of like Maul hitting Qui-gon's face. -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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TadjiStation Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 10:06am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	To my recollection, however, there's no shot of Dooku actually doing anything that would support this. No quick cut to show a change on Dooku's face (as if he's focusing on Anakin's arm), no movement by Anakin which suggests he's being controlled. For a film to suggest this, it has to be shown, and it isn't in this case. This was covered rather nicely in TPM between Maul and Qui-Gon, and the suggestion that Qui-Gon was defeated through Maul's abilities and speed is clear through effective fight choreography. -----signature----- No Signature Required
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DrEvazan Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 10:15am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 10:56am (3 edits total) Edited By: DrEvazan
	The fact that he tells an interesting and compelling narrative, using special effects techniques to enhance the story without becoming a distraction. hahaha! too funny. this is from Durwood? Mr. "dont state your opinions as facts"? beyond that, you havent even answered the question, as usual. All he talks about is story, plot, charater's motivations and dvelopment. All the technical stuff is handled by the other commentators. yep. he's all talk when it comes to character motivations and development. he can talk about it for the next 100 years, but it still wont make the way he has handled these CRUCIAL elements in the films any better. -----signature----- no original OT on DVD? Boycott Episode III!
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JohnWilliams00 Registered: Jan '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 10:51am Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Irvin Kershner on ESB: "Instead of showing Luke's ship overhead, I just showed the light on Yoda's face. I felt it was more powerful than having another special effects shot of the spaceship." I love that statement and it shows how different the times have changed. If that shot of the X-Wing flying out of Dagobah were done today, Lucas would HAVE TO put in a CG SHOT with CG VEGETATION and CG CREATURES all over the scene, with a final shot of CG YODA to cap it off. Kershner goes for the heart of that scene and eschews all of the fancy effects and trappings. One of the many reasons ESB is one of the best. Lucas these days has more than he ever had, but I really want him to cut back! When Lucas makes those scribbles on his storyboards deciding what will be "real" and what will be "not so real", I think someone should knock the "not so real" marker from his hand. -----signature----- Best Makeup Winner: Revenge of the Sith keeps fingers crossed
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 12:42pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	^^^ Or Lucas may have recognized the importance of the moment and concentrated on Yoda's face instead of showing another special effects shot of the X-Wing. There are countless examples of him making similiar decisions in the prequels. Honestly, why do you guys assume that Lucas will always make the "wrong" choices? Did he kick your dog or something? Sheesh. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 12:44pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	"why do you guys assume that Lucas will always make the "wrong" choices?" He's two for two so far. (Sorry...) -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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