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Author	Topic: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
AdamBertocci Title: Manager: Fan Films Registered: Feb '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 1:00pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 1:27pm (2 edits total) Edited By: AdamBertocci
	Actually, the shot that JW00 is talking about always kinda bugged me, BECAUSE it stays on Yoda's face. And we don't get to see ghost Obi-Wan say his line. It seems odd. (NOTE: I have the evil fullscreen version. For all I know he is there in the widescreen.) I don't think a shot of the X-wing taking off woulda been neccesary, but I think a cutaway of it flying away from the swamp would have been nice. But more importantly I would have liked to see Obi-Wan's face when he said "That boy is our last hope." That said, I like when the light over Yoda goes red. It's a very similar light to one they use on Vader in his TIE in ANH, an effect I wish got more play in SW. Rick McCallum loves you! -----signature----- "Run Leia Run", "The Chopped-Off Hands of Star Wars" and "The Fan Film Menace"... ... and now the award-winning "Brooklyn Force". Check 'em out. http://www.runleiarun.com
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DrEvazan Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 1:39pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 1:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DrEvazan
	Or Lucas may have recognized the importance of the moment and concentrated on Yoda's face instead of showing another special effects shot of the X-Wing. There are countless examples of him making similiar decisions in the prequels. examples?? feel free to cite them. -----signature----- no original OT on DVD? Boycott Episode III!
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JohnWilliams00 Registered: Jan '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 4:06pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Honestly, why do you guys assume that Lucas will always make the "wrong" choices? Did he kick your dog or something? Sheesh. Like MeBeJedi has said, he's made two so far. Oh, and waiting years for two bad Star Wars movies in a row, and having further changes made to the beloved OT with little chance of seeing the O-OT on DVD ever again are things that make me feel like I got a nice kick in the ribs from Lucas, anyways. Adam, I happen to love that shot of Yoda bathed in red lights for being so unique. A shot of Obi Wan speaking and an FX shot of the X-Wing flying out of Dagobah are superfluous and the decision to let them play off-screen is a great one. Had it been filmed the good old standard way, it would not be as powerful. -----signature----- Best Makeup Winner: Revenge of the Sith keeps fingers crossed
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gezvader28 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/29/03 4:16pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 4:39pm (2 edits total) Edited By: gezvader28
	Cometgreen And I was saying that these questions were open to your own imagination at the end of the Matrix. Nothing wrong with finding out what happens, I just prefer the "make up your own ending" movies. So would you prefer it if they hadn't made TESB? Now then, on to the "We need machines" scene. From my pov, there are two ways to do this scene: 1) Have Neo stroll through Zion in the middle of the night and come upon the Chancellor, which then starts a rather long philosophical dialogue, completely stopping the story (to be fair, lots of movies have a break when the heroes are safe, though not this early in the movie ). 2) Have Neo stroll through Zion in the middle of the night and walk by a wall of machinery running Zion. He watches it as he walks by, and then wanders off. I would choose the second choice, as it utilizes that sweet, sweet tool of subtelty. Instead of a dialogue telling people the irony of these people fighting machines, yet using machines to stay alive But the scene with Councillor Haman tells us more than that. Firstly it shows a lot about the size and structure of Zion. Haman is alluding to something, Neo cuts to the chase and concludes his point for him, but then Haman says "I don't understand how you do the things you do, but I believe there is a reason, I only hope we understand that reason before it is too late." This concern over the reason for Neo's abilities is clearly important. And the point about the humans being able to turn off the machines is neatly mirrored by the Architect when he talks of the extinction of the human race: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Durwood and the fact that people are now starting to refer to TPM as a classic film tells me that this has paid off in spades. And the fact that people have for so long referred to TPM as a dreadful, embarassing mess tells me that Lucas played whatever cards he had badly. Scott And also the fact that the majority of the special effects are designed to NOT stand out as “Ooh! Look at that!” special effects (as opposed to the Matrix’s slow motion, bullet time, spinning cameras etc) but with the goal of being as unobtrusive as possible. I'd hardly call JJB unobtrusive. " Instead, GL decided to make it 'Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD', I guess to avoid any copyright infringement issues." Not really relevant, but I love it when people talk about “such and such on LSD” when talking about something that bears no relationship to either someone on, or something someone might see when on LSD… Well you're right - LSD doesn't have that kind of effect on people, but studies have shown that giving LSD to digital characters causes exactly this effect. Anyway, I have a Matrix question. How come in every “matrix explained” essay I read, there’s a big deal about “machines can’t understand love- this is why they will fail”, but the way Persephone (a program, right?) can understand so much about an individual’s love from a single kiss in never addressed? Well I've seen the kiss scene talked about a lot - some believe that this indicates that Persephone is the intuitive program which the Architect spoke of, that she is in fact the mother of the matrix. personally I don't, but I do think the kiss is very significant - she now understands his love, she has 'decoded' it perhaps. This could give her power over him. g -----signature----- ROTJ 2007 edition : "Leia ... do you remember your mother? Your real mother? " "No."
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 5:01pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	JohnWilliams00 "and having further changes made to the beloved OT with little chance of seeing the O-OT on DVD ever again are things that make me feel like I got a nice kick in the ribs from Lucas, anyways." Wow! Thanks for catching that. Can't believe I missed those. -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 5:12pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 5:17pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Cometgreen
	Heh, I thought that X-wing quote came from Kurtz, but since it came from the actual director, I must say good call. Ok...here we go! Starting from latest... Gezvader: "So would you prefer it if they hadn't made TESB?" No, because the ending of ANH did not give the impression that the story was done. It was one small victory, yet Vader lived, the Empire still ruled, Luke still didn't know his father, the love story was still very divided, etc. If it was suggested that Vader died and that the Empire will surely fall with the destruction of the deathstar, than yes, ANH would have just been Star Wars, imo. ROTJ ends like this, as Vader dies, the Emperor dies, the Skywalker family is revealed in its entirety, yet the Empire is not fully destroyed. Surely it still controls planets and Star Destroyers. The rebels taking over is left to our imagination, as Neo showing the people the truth at the end of TM was. "Well you're right - LSD doesn't have that kind of effect on people, but studies have shown that giving LSD to digital characters causes exactly this effect." Well played. MeBeJedi: "If you look closely at the the picture, you'll see giant sets, but you see them only briefly. Usually, in Hollywood pictures, when yuou have gian sets, you pull back and show them. But here the sets were not important; it was the people in the sets that were important. If you look at the scene in the big hangar where Leia is briefing the Rebel soldiers, it's huge, yet you see it for just a few seconds. I never wanted to say, "I'm going to show th sets' I wanted to show a piece here, a piece there, and eventually the audience would put it all together in their heads. You see more of a set if you show it in pieces around the shots than if you show it in a long shot. If I ever used a long shot, it was for an emotional effect, not to show the sets." I find the incredibly wide shots of Tatooine in AOTC very emotional and very focused on the characters. Unless Lucas really loves the look of sand. "Those movies were so big and they were so hard to do that I just felt that I couldn't deal with all the issues and be on the set every day at the same time. I decided not to direct so that i could get an overview of the whole thing, which meant i could oversee the shooting but didn't have to be on the set all the time. There was a lot of work with these movies, and you really had to take a step back in order to make it work." To be honest, this is what I think George should have done. Give him complete control over the story and the editing, maybe let him control the camera, but let someone else deal with the actors and production crew. I think it would have been beneficial to both himself and the films. GDS: "What are these themes? Where are they shown?" I'm running out of time. I'll probably watch TPM again Friday or maybe next week, maybe I'll make a list of all the themes that I see presented. "How could you possibly state that there was no “virus talk” in the original?? The interrogation scene is one of the pivotal scenes of the film! You are just proving your arguments have zero credibility because you don’t even know what you’re talking about." To paraphrase JenX, feel free to leap in any time, GDS, but do try to read the post fully before you reply. "Once again, completely incorrect premise. No point. Zero credibility." So people are allowed to baselessly say what GL is thinking, but I'm not allowed to baselessly say what the Wachowskis were thinking? Hardly fair. "Wow. Please tell me the character development of the droid factory scene? Or how it advances the story? Even AOTC fans point to that scene as the one that was the most unnecessary in the film!" Anakin, after telling Padme that he will stop people from dying, begins cutting up Geonosian after Geonosian. After promising his mother that he will never fail again, he fails his infultration of Geonosis. After Padme telling Anakin she doesn't want to start a war, unwittingly starts a galactic war that will enslave her people years down the road. C3PO (yeah, I'm going for it...) tells R2 to be careful, yet gets himself in a whole heap of trouble. Surely you must see this irony. Or would you prefer a rather boring trial sequence that explains to use what we all ready know from the Obiwan interrogation. Pfft, yeah, GL always makes the wrong decision... As for moving the story forward, the two go in for peaceful negotiations, but they end up getting themselves captured and sentenced to death. The Smith/Neo fight does not move the story at all. "The point of the scene from a fight standpoint is that he could NOT beat Smith, even though entering the fight, he clearly thought he could." I didn't say Neo was god like or could beat Smith, simply unbeatable. I, personally, got the impression from the first movie that Neo CANNOT die in the Matrix, which is why Smith goes undercover in the real world (something that makes little sense unless Zion is also a program which Smith knows about). "Smith explains to Neo that their explosion in the original somehow led to an exchange of code between the two and as a result neo is gaining new abilities and becoming more machine like while Smith has gained new abilities and is becoming more human-like." Which was perhaps the funniest piece of dialogue in the movie, as it seemed like the Wachowskis were grasping for straws trying to keep their only naturally cool character in their sequels. "This type of critique is never very effective. Every fight scene ever could be reduced to that. Bruce Lee kicks someone, Bruce Lee punches someone, Jet Li blocks kick, Jet Li kicks back, Rambo throws knife, Rambo shoots down regiment. And so on. And it can very easily be applied to TPM. But just because I can give a simple description does not mean the scene was not good." Uhh...no. In TPM, they travel through different stages. They get separated. They have a pause in this tense fight. That's not redundant. The Neo/Smith fight stays in the exact same place, with Neo fighting the exact same enemy. It got interesting when he got the pole, then quickly became redundant again. This is why I liked the freeway chase, as different enemies came into play, and it of course featured different areas. One thing I really liked about TMR was the abundance of enemies. I really didn't notice this until the Agents finally reappeared. I thought "Hey, they're after Neo too!" It really makes you feel like everyone's after Neo. Poor One... CeeJay: "The tale hasn't gotten to the point when he can expand his mind as he does his physical abilities, that's for MATRIX Revolutions to cover." I got the impression that expanding your physical abilities inside the Matrix IS expanding your mind. The ability to understand that, even though you see it, nothing is real. But I assume you simply mean he has not been able to comprehend why he's the One. Again, this is only really shown through dialogue. Neo never gets emotional or has a break down, like he did in the first Matrix. All though maybe I'm wrong, as it has been a few months since I've seen this movie. "That scene not only shows his humility but also his place in society amongst the real world hierachy, he's only as special as people want to percieive him, he is merely another soldier under the command of higher officials in reality despite his immense abilities beyond that or normal men within the un-reality of the MATRIX. Without the higher ranking offical in that scene, the whole irony of it would not exist and it the segment as you suggested would play off as a mere visual metaphor for the entire trilogy." But we saw his humility when the people asked him to heal them. We saw that he was just an ordinary person in the real world. I do admit that that was a good scene, despite it being quite hokey, and the make out session that precedes it. As for Neo having superiors, isn't that the point of Morpheus. ?:\| Whew...done. So, how about we discuss something I don't think we've touched on: the incredibly cliched "love story" between Morpheus and Niobe? Cometgreen, too afraid to proof read
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:28pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	examples?? feel free to cite them. Why? Would my doing so actually change your mind? Didn't think so. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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JenX Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:32pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Cometgreen gezvader28: "So would you prefer it if they hadn't made TESB?" No, because the ending of ANH did not give the impression that the story was done. And do you think the end of The Matrix did? Yeah, Neo might well start to show people "the truth" but that still leaves the rather gigantic question of how do you free five billion people, and how do stop the machines from killing you all afterwards. I didn't say Neo was god like or could beat Smith, simply unbeatable. I, personally, got the impression from the first movie that Neo CANNOT die in the Matrix... I think the possibility exists that Neo can be overwritten by the Smith programme... ...which is why Smith goes undercover in the real world (something that makes little sense unless Zion is also a program which Smith knows about). Why do you think Zion has to be a program for that to make sense? I think I can guess your criticism, but I don't want to type out a response in case I'm wrong. Green_Destiny_Sword: "Smith explains to Neo that their explosion in the original somehow led to an exchange of code between the two and as a result neo is gaining new abilities and becoming more machine like while Smith has gained new abilities and is becoming more human-like." Which was perhaps the funniest piece of dialogue in the movie, as it seemed like the Wachowskis were grasping for straws trying to keep their only naturally cool character in their sequels. Well I disagree with both you and Green_Destiny_Sword here. I don't see any evidence in the speech that Neo gained new abilities or became more machine-like, and I don't think the Wachowski brothers were grasping at straws. I love this scene; I didn't want it to end, I wanted to soak in it, luxuriate in it. Hugo Weaving just nails every part of that speech; the slightly giddy way he shakes his head when he says that he is a "new man", the ever so polite "thank you", the way he growls when he says purpose "drives us" Mmmmmm.... Anyway, it seems to me like Smith is a rather important part of TMR, and I can't shake the suspiscion that he is going to play a very important part in Revolutions, and it all seems to stem from the information given in that scene, so I don't really think that something so central can be dismissed as "straw clutching". And I agree with Green_Destiny_Sword that TPM lightsaber duel can be made to sound as redundant and repetitive as you make the Burly Brawl sound. I like the Burly Brawl. I like the moves, the energy of the sequence, and I love the fact that, unlike a million other martial arts films, all of the main characters opponents wade in and attack him at once. None of this "stand around in a circle and wait for him to knock out one before the next one attacks" stuff. Whew...done. So, how about we discuss something I don't think we've touched on: the incredibly cliched "love story" between Morpheus and Niobe? "Love story"? Don't you mean "love sub-sub-sub-sub-plot that barely got two minutes of screen time"? Anyway, yeah, I'll touch on it and say that, from the brief moments of it we saw, the characters spoke to each other as if they were real people and seemed to have a genuine affection for each other. If it had been given more screen time, would it have (de)evolved into something as mind numbingly awful as the Anakin-Amidala story in AOTC? Who knows? Maybe we did a Neo and dodged a bullet on that one? -----signature----- Anakin and Padme sitting in a tree, C-H-O-K-I-N-G "I am altering the OT, pray I do not alter it any further" My inner child thinks the prequels suck.
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DrEvazan Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:33pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	maybe, maybe not, but hopefully it would stop you from posting more made up facts and false comparisons. if you expect to be taken seriously when you say things, you might want to back up your wild statements with evidence. unless of course you have no evidence, which is more likely the case. -----signature----- no original OT on DVD? Boycott Episode III!
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:33pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 7:39pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Durwood
	it seemed like the Wachowskis were grasping for straws trying to keep their only naturally cool character in their sequels. Yeah, if the Wachowski Bros. were honest, the dialogue would have gone like this: Neo: "What are you doing here? I thought I destroyed you." Agent Smith: "Yes, you did. But the directors realized that my character was more popular than the so-called 'heroes' starring in this mess of a movie that they just had to bring me back no matter how little sense it made." Neo: "Woah!" -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:37pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	unless of course you have no evidence, which is more likely the case. Whatever you say, slick. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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DrEvazan Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 7:44pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 7:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: DrEvazan
	and you call me "duck and run"? NOTE TO ALL POSTERS: Durwood would rather you never question him on his evasive statements and made up information. please let him make up anything he wants and never ask him to back up anything with facts. also make sure you are ready to back up any statements you make to him, as he will be the first to ask for proof. thanks for your attention in this matter, Dr E -----signature----- no original OT on DVD? Boycott Episode III!
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JohnWilliams00 Registered: Jan '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 8:41pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	JenX: I love this scene; I didn't want it to end, I wanted to soak in it, luxuriate in it. Hugo Weaving just nails every part of that speech; the slightly giddy way he shakes his head when he says that he is a "new man", the ever so polite "thank you", the way he growls when he says purpose "drives us" I agree with this scene and I think Hugo's portayal of Smith has been very effective to far. It's a character you want to see more of. I like the Burly Brawl. I like the moves, the energy of the sequence, and I love the fact that, unlike a million other martial arts films, all of the main characters opponents wade in and attack him at once. None of this "stand around in a circle and wait for him to knock out one before the next one attacks" stuff. This is also very true. Even Bruce Lee films have always done this! -----signature----- Best Makeup Winner: Revenge of the Sith keeps fingers crossed
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TadjiStation Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 9:08pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Yeah, if the Wachowski Bros. were honest, the dialogue would have gone like this: Neo: "What are you doing here? I thought I destroyed you." Agent Smith: "Yes, you did. But the directors realized that my character was more popular than the so-called 'heroes' starring in this mess of a movie that they just had to bring me back no matter how little sense it made." Neo: "Woah!" And this, Durwood, is why you'll never be a good screenwriter. -----signature----- No Signature Required
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Green_Destiny_Sword Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 7/29/03 9:12pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	COMETGREEN -- >>> What theme has been developed in the saga of the PT? When you have people making threads, “Should TPM have been a prologue?” or “Was TPM Necessary?” , I question any significant themes being established. Interesting that in those threads, the answer seemed to be “no” and “yes” respectively… Well, the fact that the question is still being raised 4 years later shows that TPM did little to establish any themes. Again, of course, you don’t explain what relevance TPM holds. >>> How could you possibly state that there was no “virus talk” in the original?? And now I’m questioning whether you read the very sentence (don’t know who posted it) that you copied and pasted into your own post: “as they didn't remind people of the virus talk in the original Matrix.” I understand the statement. And I explain how the original virus talk in TM is completely developed in TMR. This is development. For someone to say it was “unintended” is ridiculous. You’re just not paying attention. >>> The guys in TMR are doing much longer, and far more impressive sequences. Please feel free to offer scenes that match or exceed it. I love discussing fights/martial arts scenes. Off the top of my head (cos I saw it on Saturday): most of Once Upon a Time in China? Look, if you are not going to offer a scene, you don’t have a point. And for the record, Once and TMR had the same fight choreographer. I thought it was pretty clear from the preceeding sequence that Dooku was completely in control of Anakin’s moves in that fight- hence their looking more like they were dancing than fighting, lightsabers weren’t actually touching, I’m not completely sure as to what this description means. Dooku was “completely in control of Anakin’s moves”?? Via mind control? How was this done? Either way, AOTC is on HBO all the time this month and I have seen that fight scene at least 4 times recently. As I felt on the first viewing, it is illogical that Anakin suddenly has his defenses wide open. Not to mention they just cut to the shot of it. And it does not even look credible in the final version of the film. Anakin’s style being completely different to how he’d previously fought and much more like Dooku’s… Where did we see Anakin fighting before this point? Let me know, I would love to see those scenes. >>> Instead, GL decided to make it 'Sonic the Hedgehog on LSD', I guess to avoid any copyright infringement issues. Not really relevant, but I love it when people talk about “such and such on LSD” when talking about something that bears no relationship to either someone on, or something someone might see when on LSD… As someone who was an avid Sonic fan as a kid, I can assure you, that if da ‘Hog were to ever dabble in some LSD, he would look exactly like Yoda in that duel. Anakin, after telling Padme that he will stop people from dying, begins cutting up Geonosian after Geonosian. After promising his mother that he will never fail again, he fails his infultration of Geonosis. After Padme telling Anakin she doesn't want to start a war, unwittingly starts a galactic war that will enslave her people years down the road. C3PO (yeah, I'm going for it...) tells R2 to be careful, yet gets himself in a whole heap of trouble. This is thematic development of the droid factory scene? Please. Why don't you just stick with the "these films are for the child in you" response? Durwood said:My impression has always been that the force with which Dooku struck Anakin's saber caused his arm to swing away from his body. Not the case. The shot before Anakin gets his arm sliced off is just their sabers clashing. There is then a cut to the ‘arm-chopping’ shot. It is not a seamless series of moves. But of course, like most PT action, the choreography is choppy and poorly edited. Thus we are left with a shot of Anakin, with his arms suddenly spread wide apart and his defense completely open and Dooku easily chops his arm off. Making no type of sense. And of course this even begs the question of why Dooku would not just cut his head off or slice Anakin’s torso? That would have been the more direct and lethal strike. But who needs logic when it comes to the PT? Especially in AOTC, in which the entire "story" (using the word very loosely) is one big plot hole. JENX said: Well I disagree with both you and Green_Destiny_Sword here. I don't see any evidence in the speech that Neo gained new abilities or became more machine-like, and I don't think the Wachowski brothers were grasping at straws. Smith tells Neo "I watched you die..." and here Neo is still. I think the implication is that Smith himself is shocked and confused as to how Neo was able to be ressurected. Just as Smith realizes he himself is now different, so is Neo. And certainly this plays out in the story. And of course the Wachowski Bros. were not grasping at straws. These movies are pur brilliance as Princeton and Harvard can attest. They were making a masterpiece. -----signature----- "Like most things, I am nothing. It is the same for this sword, it's all simply a state of mind..." -- Li Mu Bai "I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees" -- President Bush blatantly lying to America. www.downingstreetmemo.com -- The T
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