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Author	Topic: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 9:26pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 9:35pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Cometgreen
	"And do you think the end of The Matrix did? Yeah, Neo might well start to show people "the truth" but that still leaves the rather gigantic question of how do you free five billion people, and how do stop the machines from killing you all afterwards." Just like the end of ROTJ. The rebels barely have any ships left, and they need to go planet to planet and liberate the people. When you look at it that way, you could make a tv series depicting that. But the fact of the matter is that the story is done. The villians are dead, the heroes have prevailed, grown, etc. Again, there's nothing wrong with explaining it. The same thing can be said about the prequels, and T3. It's all superfluous information, but it's still fun to see how the events that are described in the original movies go down. "Why do you think Zion has to be a program for that to make sense? I think I can guess your criticism, but I don't want to type out a response in case I'm wrong." Thank you for not answering for me. I just find it hard that Smith, who is all but a piece of code, could control a human in real life. I can kind of understand that Smith downloaded his entire "consciousness" into that guy, and so he wakes up he wants to kill Neo, but he seems to know exactly how he should do it. I dunno, I'll wait till Revolutions (on HBO ). "Well I disagree with both you and Green_Destiny_Sword here. I don't see any evidence in the speech that Neo gained new abilities or became more machine-like, and I don't think the Wachowski brothers were grasping at straws." I just found it incredibly hokey. "Look, the villain we all was sure died in the last film is back! Yay!" I just get irritated when storytellers can't let go of their characters, even though it's their decision to kill them off in the first place. In SW, Obiwan didn't suddenly come back in ESB, or at the very end of ANH; it was immediately shown that his spirit lived on. "Anyway, it seems to me like Smith is a rather important part of TMR, and I can't shake the suspiscion that he is going to play a very important part in Revolutions, and it all seems to stem from the information given in that scene, so I don't really think that something so central can be dismissed as "straw clutching"." I know... As I have said, I think that Smith will turn out to be the hero in Revolutions. ""Love story"? Don't you mean "love sub-sub-sub-sub-plot that barely got two minutes of screen time"? Anyway, yeah, I'll touch on it and say that, from the brief moments of it we saw, the characters spoke to each other as if they were real people and seemed to have a genuine affection for each other." That's why I put "love story" in quotation marks. It's just an incredibly cliched character relationship from the moment Niobe's boyfriend is introduced. Damn, I hate that character. He's just so...annoying. He should try smiling for once, it might help. JW00: "I agree with this scene and I think Hugo's portayal of Smith has been very effective to far. It's a character you want to see more of." It's the only character you want to see. EDIT: Ah crap, more typing... "Well, the fact that the question is still being raised 4 years later shows that TPM did little to establish any themes. Again, of course, you don’t explain what relevance TPM holds." TPM holds no relevence? It establishes no themes? You're just not paying attention. "Thus we are left with a shot of Anakin, with his arms suddenly spread wide apart and his defense completely open and Dooku easily chops his arm off." If you look closely, you can see that he's really trying to regain his balance. The two spin around, Anakin holds his arms out to gain balance, and Dooku cuts one off. It's quite a long pause, but all of the duels in the movies end with rather strange choreography. "Especially in AOTC, in which the entire "story" (using the word very loosely) is one big plot hole." Whatever you say... "And of course the Wachowski Bros. were not grasping at straws. These movies are pur brilliance as Princeton and Harvard can attest. They were making a masterpiece." A work that's sole purpose is to stimulate the mind, which in turn results in a poorly designed film, is a masterpiece? Oh boy... Cometgreen
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Jabba-wocky Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 7/29/03 9:42pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	No, if only we had been so fortunate as to have our Phantom Menace. To quote one film critic, Matrix:Reloaded, "Plays like a cross between a video game and a preachy episode of Star Trek" No, not a Phantom Menace at all. What we got was a Star Wars Holiday Special. But then on the other hand, most who thought they were fans of the Matrix series wouldn't call themselves that after seeing Reloaded. I'm certainly among them, unless this final Matrix movie has some kind of stunning redemption for the whole saga. To start giving reasons, I will say that most of what the Wachowski's did was go BIGGER, LOUDER, LONGER without purpose. For instance, Neo vs. 100 Agent Smiths. It is physically impossible for any more thna about ten people to have access to you all at once. And surely enough, about ninety of those Agent Smiths just spent their time standing on the roof yelling. So why make such a glaringly awful shot (the CGI stood out there too much) for something that's not even logical/practical in the first place? Then your going to exacerbate the problem by making the scene incredibly long? There was really no reason for Neo to stay that long, as he could have flown off at any moment, including from the first sign of trouble. Instead, he decides to engage in a fight that achieves little in terms of the overall story arc. It didn't even seem there was a reason for him to stay that long. Then, rather than having more sublte symbolism, like in the first one, they butcher the movie by bringing it to the forefront. A la, every single scene including the Merovignian. Every painful line of dialogue seemed to come straight out of some sort of pop, Reader's Digest version of philosophy. Finally, elements were repeated enough that it seemed in many ways like the same movie over again. For instance, Trinity's death and resurrection played out in almost exactly the same way as Neo's did. Moreover, Neo's ability to destroy the hunter/seekers just seemed to be another case of escalating powers. If you're going to present a problem that the main characters must solve, the larger part of things should be the main character learning how to solve it, not getting special powers to do so at exactly the right moment. Otherwise, there won't be much tension to the film in the long run. To be fair, though, Reloaded did have a few parts that were mildly interesting, and managed to reestablish some dramatic tension in the series as a whole. The larger part of it, however, was rubbish. It was certainly subpar compared to the original Matrix. As for people saying that its just because things can't be new twice, I would challenge you to think again. Many sequels have been just as good/better than the originals while staying true to the style of the series. This includes Aliens 2, Empire Strikes Back (its a SW board, after all), Terminator 2 and that one Back to the Future where they're in the wild west. There's no reason why the Matrix couldn't have done the same thing. -----signature----- ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings. All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama Roma vincit Tearing Up a Lane (TERRIN UP A LAAAANE!!!)
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Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 9:44pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/29/03 9:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Cometgreen
	"No, not a Phantom Menace at all. What we got was a Star Wars Holiday Special." LOL. Ouch. You shall be condemned for this. Cometgreen
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/29/03 10:08pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Don't you mean "what we got was a Star Wars Pre-Holiday Special Edition"? -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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Durwood Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 12:21pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Well done Jabba-wocky! That was a concise and brutally accurate dissection of The Matrix: Rehashed--er, I mean Reloaded. -----signature----- "[STAR WARS fans] all have very strong ideas about what should happen, and they think it should be their way. Which is fine, except I'm making the movies, so I should have it my way." -George Lucas
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MeBeJedi Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 12:49pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Basher! -----signature----- Yoda - "Do or do not, there is no essay." The Matrix - "There is no essay" O-OT on DVD - "Mr. Lucas... we are merely passing THROUGH history. This... this IS history." http://www.originaltrilogy.com Reality got in the way of the essay. Relax
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ShaneP Title: Lucasfilm Projects Gremlin(Manager ) Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 7/30/03 3:54pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Finding Nemo is now the top toon of all-time. -----signature----- Keep Your Words Sweet. You May Have To Eat Them.
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Darth_Insidious Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 4:01pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Snow White is the top toon of all time. -----signature----- "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations." - Orson Welles
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winter_chili Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 4:01pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Spirited Away > Finding Nemo -----signature----- The Mighty Blueonic One of the Neverending and Excruciatingly Painful Padawanship A-H-B-Y ~~! !~~ it is the duty of a patriot to defend his country from its goverment
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gezvader28 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 7/30/03 4:21pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/30/03 4:32pm (2 edits total) Edited By: gezvader28
	Cometgreen Anakin, after telling Padme that he will stop people from dying, begins cutting up Geonosian after Geonosian. After promising his mother that he will never fail again, he fails his infultration of Geonosis. After Padme telling Anakin she doesn't want to start a war, unwittingly starts a galactic war that will enslave her people years down the road. I always found that scene pretty strange. I mean not long before it we have Anakin's big confession scene, he's all guilt-ridden 'cos he's murdered loads of Tuskens, Padme is shocked. Then not long after they arrive on Geonosis, she tells him she doesn't want to start a war, next thing you know he's carving up Geonosians left and right before they've even fired a shot, he doesn't even bother with defensive moves first. And he's the invader! What happened to all the guilt about losing control? And then the next time we see them together she's declaring her undying love for him. Eh? Where did that come from? Maybe the sight of Anakin murdering people turns her on. What are we to make of it? The scene doesn't fit, it makes a mockery of Anakin's guilt-ridden confession. We know it was added to speed up the pace, but where's the consideration for the characters or the drama? I just found it incredibly hokey. "Look, the villain we all was sure died in the last film is back! Yay!" I just get irritated when storytellers can't let go of their characters, even though it's their decision to kill them off in the first place. In SW, Obiwan didn't suddenly come back in ESB, or at the very end of ANH; it was immediately shown that his spirit lived on. I might agree with you if it were someone like Cypher, but Smith is a program, why shouldn't he come back? As for there being a sequel - when I saw Matrix in '99 I immediately thought there'd be a sequel, it was very much like the end of ANH - the rebels had found a champion with special powers and had won a major victory over the bad guys, but we still hadn't met the top villain and the bad guys were still in control, they were bound to have a counter-attack. g -----signature----- ROTJ 2007 edition : "Leia ... do you remember your mother? Your real mother? " "No."
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JenX Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 6:59pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Cometgreen >>>And do you think the end of The Matrix did? Yeah, Neo might well start to show people "the truth" but that still leaves the rather gigantic question of how do you free five billion people, and how do stop the machines from killing you all afterwards.<<< I just find it hard that Smith, who is all but a piece of code, could control a human in real life. I can kind of understand that Smith downloaded his entire "consciousness" into that guy, and so he wakes up he wants to kill Neo, but he seems to know exactly how he should do it. I'm not sure that Smith is "controlling" that guy, I think Smith "is" that guy, he has downloaded himself onto the guys brain, and is now Smith in the flesh...although I can see a case for thinking that some part of the guys original personality remains. And I don't understand why it is hard to believe that he knows "exactly" how to kill Neo. "Grab a knife and stab him" doesn't seem to complicated "Look, the villain we all was sure died in the last film is back! Yay!" I just get irritated when storytellers can't let go of their characters, even though it's their decision to kill them off in the first place. Firstly, Smith wasn't "killed". That was an inaccurate assumption on your part (although you are by no means the only one who assumed that). So the storytellers aren't guilt of bringing back a dead character. Secondly, as I (think) we agree, Smith and his new abilities look like they are going to play an important part in the last film, so what happened to Smith at the end of The Matrix was necessary to get make him the "pesron" he is in TMR. In SW, Obiwan didn't suddenly come back in ESB, or at the very end of ANH; it was immediately shown that his spirit lived on. Smith and Gandalf. What a pair of drama queens! Jabba-wocky But then on the other hand, most who thought they were fans of the Matrix series wouldn't call themselves that after seeing Reloaded. Man, I wish these forums had an eyerolling emoticon... So, Jabba-wocky, lets see the figures that back up this ridiculous assertion. Tell me how many people thought they were fans of the Matrix series before seeing Reloaded, and then tell me how many of those people call themselves fans of the Matrix series after seeing Reloaded. Then show me how you collected these figures. Or you could just admit you made that up in a transparent attempt to give your opinion a bit more weight. For instance, Neo vs. 100 Agent Smiths. It is physically impossible for any more thna about ten people to have access to you all at once. Not true, but anyway... And surely enough, about ninety of those Agent Smiths just spent their time standing on the roof yelling. You know, I really don't like saying stuff like "Did you see the same film as me???"...but, did you see the same film as me??? That is just absolute nonsense. There isn't even anything to argue about here, you are just flat out wrong. I rarely ever tell people that they are flat out wrong; I am Ms "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" but, seriously, you are just wrong. So why make such a glaringly awful shot (the CGI stood out there too much)... Yeah, the CG was a bit ropey at times... ...for something that's not even logical/practical in the first place? Because it helps show what an incredible fighter Neo is. Because it shows that Smith's ability to replicate himself is (apparently) limitless (or maybe just limited to the 6 billion odd human programmes he can overwrite). Because it was a nice riposte to the Kung Fu films where guys only attack one at a time. Because logic and practicality don't really apply (in this case) when you are inside a viral programme operating inside a computer programme. There was really no reason for Neo to stay that long, as he could have flown off at any moment, including from the first sign of trouble. Instead, he decides to engage in a fight that achieves little in terms of the overall story arc. It didn't even seem there was a reason for him to stay that long. I honestly think that, almost to the end, Neo thought he could beat them all. So he stuck around until the numbers became (literally) overwhelming, and only then did he fly away. Then, rather than having more sublte symbolism, like in the first one, they butcher the movie by bringing it to the forefront. A la, every single scene including the Merovignian. Every painful line of dialogue seemed to come straight out of some sort of pop, Reader's Digest version of philosophy. I keep on seeing examples of this strange belief that "philosophy" ceases to be philosophy if it is presented in a simple, obvious manner; instead it becomes "pseudo-philosophy", "Readers Digest philosophy" or "Philosophy 101". Have you read any Plato? The Merovignian scene is very reminiscent of one of Socrates' discussions. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why people don't like these kinds of scenes, but I don't understand why people think this kind of thing isn't "real" philosophy. Moreover, Neo's ability to destroy the hunter/seekers just seemed to be another case of escalating powers. If you're going to present a problem that the main characters must solve, the larger part of things should be the main character learning how to solve it, not getting special powers to do so at exactly the right moment. Otherwise, there won't be much tension to the film in the long run. But this happens at the end of the film! Isn't it blindingly obvious that the Wachowski brothers are going for a different type of tension i.e. Did Neo really stop the sentinels? How did he do it if he did? Is his state at the end of Reloaded connect to the state of HumanSmith? As for people saying that its just because things can't be new twice, I would challenge you to think again. Yep Many sequels have been just as good/better than the originals while staying true to the style of the series. This includes Aliens 2, Empire Strikes Back (its a SW board, after all), Terminator 2 With you so far... ...and that one Back to the Future where they're in the wild west. And that was where you lost me There's no reason why the Matrix couldn't have done the same thing. I know, which is why I'm so glad that TMR is...oooh, ten times better then TM. Man I love this film. Durwood Well done Jabba-wocky! That was a concise and brutally accurate dissection of The Matrix: Rehashed--er, I mean Reloaded. Brutal? Maybe. Accurate? Err...not so much -----signature----- Anakin and Padme sitting in a tree, C-H-O-K-I-N-G "I am altering the OT, pray I do not alter it any further" My inner child thinks the prequels suck.
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winter_chili Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 7:23pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace? - Date Edited: 7/30/03 7:26pm (1 edits total) Edited By: winter_chili
	There was really no reason for Neo to stay that long, as he could have flown off at any moment, including from the first sign of trouble. Instead, he decides to engage in a fight that achieves little in terms of the overall story arc. It didn't even seem there was a reason for him to stay that long. The point of the fight is purpose, Neo tried to take it from smith, smith tried to take it from neo so Neo responds, Neo stays because hes trying to kill smith or at least beat the living crap out of him as much as possible Moreover, Neo's ability to destroy the hunter/seekers just seemed to be another case of escalating powers. If you're going to present a problem that the main characters must solve, the larger part of things should be the main character learning how to solve it, not getting special powers to do so at exactly the right moment. Otherwise, there won't be much tension to the film in the long run. Neo didnt get more power, he just got the same power he had in the matrix in the "real" world -----signature----- The Mighty Blueonic One of the Neverending and Excruciatingly Painful Padawanship A-H-B-Y ~~! !~~ it is the duty of a patriot to defend his country from its goverment
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Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 7:41pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	"Firstly, Smith wasn't "killed". That was an inaccurate assumption on your part (although you are by no means the only one who assumed that). So the storytellers aren't guilt of bringing back a dead character." Yeah, Smith exploding into millions of green bits obviously means he's still alive. "Secondly, as I (think) we agree, Smith and his new abilities look like they are going to play an important part in the last film, so what happened to Smith at the end of The Matrix was necessary to get make him the "pesron" he is in TMR." Yes, we do. I admit that all of my bitching could be laughed at in a few months with Revolutions, but the Wachowskis were so full of themselves that they thought they could do both at the same time. They should have just gone by normal Hollywood procedure, that way they can learn from any mistakes they make (which I feel is a lot). I just don't think Reloaded is a movie to begin with; it's merely a setup for Revolutions. It has no beginning, middle, or end. The actual story doesn't kick in until the last twenty minutes. Before that, it's simply setting up the characters for the next installment. "Smith and Gandalf. What a pair of drama queens!" Of course. Oh well, at least they're wicked cool to begin with. Cometgreen
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winter_chili Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 7:43pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Yeah, Smith exploding into millions of green bits obviously means he's still alive. If getting mowed down by a frickin mini gun didnt kill him why would him getting blown up? -----signature----- The Mighty Blueonic One of the Neverending and Excruciatingly Painful Padawanship A-H-B-Y ~~! !~~ it is the duty of a patriot to defend his country from its goverment
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Cometgreen Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 7/30/03 7:48pm Subject: RE: So now the Matrix fans have their Phantom Menace?
	Because it was all ready shown that bullets can't kill them. Having a guy frickin jumping inside of you and disecting your code or whatever is quite different. I just think it makes little sense, as if Neo just killed the human instead of the program, how is that different from tearing Agents up with miniguns and the like? Why would the Agents need an upgrade, as their only fear should be that Neo's mind is free, so he can't be killed from inside the Matrix. A new brand of agent won't change that. In fact, if the agents were smart, they would distract Neo even more so that the Sentinels could kill his real body. Cometgreen
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