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Topic:
Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Dark Lord Karno Dal
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
3/31/05 10:33pm
Subject:
Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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I think Lucas missed an oportunity by not having Count Dooku as part of the Jedi Council in Episode I. I know GL hadn't invisioned Dooku's character at that time, which is really unfortunate because his presence on the council would have helped to strengthen the films.
I imagine Dooku on the council in TPM actively taking up for Qui-Gon on having Anakin trained. Qui-Gon is Dooku's apprentice, so it makes sense that he would have supported him, plus it would have given us a hint of both Dooku's rebelliousness and of the beginnings of the cracks forming within the order. Perhaps after the council scene, we might have had a scene between Dooku, Qui-Gon, and Obi-Wan in which Dooku speaks of his growing disillusionment with the order and with the republic as a whole. More could have been made of this had Dooku joined the group in Palpatine's quarters when he speaks of how broken the republic is, which would have been the starting point for their future relationship. This would have helped to tie TPM into the following two chapters far more than it currently is.
Finally, at the end of Episode I when it is revealed that Anakin will be trained, it would have been interesting if, following up on the above, Yoda had related that an insistent Dooku influenced the council to allow Obi-Wan to train Anakin, per Qui-Gon's dying wish. That would have set up some lovely undercurrents in AOTC when Obi-Wan an Anakin are called on to face Dooku. Both the duel at the end of the film and the scene where Dooku meets with the captured Obi-Wan would have an emotional subtext that was sorely missing, as Obi and Anakin have to wrestle with sympathies for the count that they developed due to his presence in their relationship as master and apprentice and with his involvement in the events of TPM.
All of this would have made the prequels a bit richer and less disjointed, but alas it wasn't to be. I'm just curious as to what the rest of you might think about this?
Thanks,
DLKD-
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Lars_Muul
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
3/31/05 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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That's a bunch of nice ideas. No doubt, it would've been good. However, I have no problem with the way it is now. The focus of this trilogy lies on the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan(not so much in TPM, which is mostly introduction, but in the trilogy at large). Dooku's personal journey, including his relationships with other characters, is not important to the plot.
As I said, though, it wouldn't hurt to have more of him.
Relationships - there are many kinds
/LM
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DeadDooku
Registered:
Feb '05
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 8:00am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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he should have at least been at Qui Gons funeral
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Dark Lord Karno Dal
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 8:58am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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The focus of this trilogy lies on the relationship between Anakin and Obi-Wan(not so much in TPM, which is mostly introduction, but in the trilogy at large). Dooku's personal journey, including his relationships with other characters, is not important to the plot.
I don't disagree at all, and my view on this has little to do with Dooku's journey as a character. Rather, I see giving him a role in TPM as an improvement in the cohesiveness of the overall story of the prequels. I think having him be an established character and someone somewhat close to two of the three main characters of the prequels (Obi-Wan and Anakin) would have provided more emotional intensity to his turn and how the Jedi, particularly those two, deal with it. His introduction in AOTC would have been far less "out of left field" had this been the case.
Additionally, having him be partially responsible for Anakin's admission into the Jedi order and largely responsible for his being Obi-Wan's apprentice would have added to Anakin's journey as well I think, considering Dooku goes on to become a Sith, as does Anakin eventually. Having Anakin know first hand of Dooku's rebelliousness and disillusionment with the order (and considering Anakin's own opinions as stated in AOTC, his sympathy with those feelings as well) would also lend another layer of meaning to his eventual supplantment of Dooku as Sith Apprentice, as he would more literally be coming full circle in becoming that which he has destroyed.
Thanks for the commnents,
DLKD-
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Lars_Muul
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 10:35am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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It's not easy to argue against you, Karno Dal 
However, I believe that having us know Dooku better and thereby create an emotional impact with his turn to the dark side would take away a bit from Anakin's turn. There's a point with keeping the villians of the PT as evil as possible. Of course, Lucas wanted to make a point with Dooku - that it is possible for a Jedi to turn to the dark side. I think he was wise, though, to not let us get too emotionally involved with the character.
Since the villians(especially the Sith Lords) aren't much more than villians to the audience, it will be quite shocking to see Anakin, the main protagonist, become one of them. Had we known Dooku before he turned evil, while he was still a good guy, the dramatic impact of Anakin's turn would've been lessened.
That's my view at least.
Villians are evil
/LM
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Dark Lord Karno Dal
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 12:01pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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It's not easy to argue against you, Karno Dal
No easier a time than I'm having arguing with you Lars_Muul, I'd expect.
But now to move past the love-in...;-)
You make an excellent point about the danger of the audience becoming too emotionally involved with Dooku. However, the screentime he'd have gotten out of the scene suggestions I made would probably have totalled less than five minutes. I'm not sure that would have been a great danger, but you certainly do have a point.
What I was getting at though was more of an emotional involvement for Anakin and Obi-Wan than for the audience. Obi-Wan would understand Dooku's point of view as it relates to Qui-Gon's from TPM and might be at least a little emotionally conflicted in having to face him. Anakin would have a deeper personal understanding of how his own opinions of dissent fall in line with Dooku's and would likely be even more conflicted, perhaps even seeing Dooku as a bit of a kindred spirit. I think this would have contributed both to the deepening of AOTC as a film and to Anakin's eventual decision to mirror Dooku's choice and join the Sith. I also think that might have helped the audience relate a bit better with Anakin, which is something that the OT had that seems to be missing from the prequels.
Ah well, it's fun to speculate at least.
DLKD-
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 2:00pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Good ideas. Put him in.
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Deeysew
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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I say put him in. C3PO's in it. Why not Dooku?
-----signature-----
When the saga was completed on the seventh day, George Lucas rested. And then he looked down upon his creation and said, "It is good... but maybe it needs a few more dewbacks."
"It's my house to paint white and show people that colored house, then later p
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LazyDivey98
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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There was no seperatist movement in TPM. Dooku is the leader of said movement. It would not have made sense to include him.
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Chaotic_Serenity
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
4/1/05 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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LazyDivey has a point. Just how would we include him? At that point, he's already left the Order, so he wouldn't show up for Qui Gon's funeral. However, he hasn't joined up with Sideous yet, and the Separatist movement hasn't begun to develop. As Dooku is primarily linked to those two events within Star Wars, I can't see how he could have fit into TPM without some really contrived storytelling.
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Part of the Darth Vader Fanclub. Because good is dumb.
The ability to bash a movie does not make one intelligent.
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MANDALORIAN
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/2/05 8:43am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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The reason Dooku is not in TPM is, in reality, because Lucas had not thought him up yet.
A bit of planning ahead would have prevented issues like this.
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"I don't really care that much about Star Wars itself. But it has allowed me to push the boundaries of Digital Effects and finance additional research" - George Lucas
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Jedi-Master_Sledge
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/7/05 5:28pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Anyone else find it funny that this is the second box office smash trilogy to have Christophe lee in, yet for some reason, his Character should be in all 3 films, yet is only in 2 of them? Just a thought I had.
Jedi-Master_Sledge
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Jack Lemmon: Now what is this Chewie Character? GL: He's kind of a space ape. JL: Space ape, what the hell. You got Mathow here auditioning for Obi Wan, and you got me trying out for some GD space ape. I'm gonna take a sh*t in this mask.
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Moriarte
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/9/05 9:30pm
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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The idea of "planning ahead" would not necessarily guarantee that GL would have thought up Dooku anyways. Any other fan-imaged changes that are, hypothetically, put in place would be met by further ones in a never-cycle of what-ifs.
Thematically, Dooku's absence is that he left the Jedi before TPM or so, didn't attend Qui-Gon's funeral because the Jedi would be there (and he's a Sith-what does he really care now) and he would rather create a Separatist organization. Dooku's placement is fine.
Ciou-See the Sig
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Lars_Muul
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
4/10/05 4:29am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Yeah. Besides, TPM is really only an introduction. It's in AOTC that things start to happen. Naturally, new characters will be introduced in that movie.
You also forget one thing, guys: Darth Maul died in TPM. Sidious had to have a new apprentice in the next movie. So, Lucas simply had to come up a new character.
Dooku is a well conceived villian
/LM
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Darth_Ben73
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/10/05 7:08am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Absolutley.
You could add an end scene between Dooku and Sidious
have Sidious have Dooku order the clones as Sifo-Dyas.
As far as Qui-Gon goes well???
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The ability to destroy a planet is insignifigant compared to the powr of the force
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Lurking_Around
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/10/05 8:27am
Subject:
RE: Dooku in TPM would have improved the prequels
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Well, since GL is making SEs for all the movies, he can at least just insert Dooku for Qui Gon's funeral.
But then there'd be a problem with the "A pity our paths have never crossed..." line that Dooku said in AOTC.
*shrug*
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