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Author	Topic: Spirit Warriors of Angharad COMPLETE Link to MS Word version available 8/4
honour Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 6/21/04 7:21pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (41/?) 6/21 - Date Edited: 6/21/04 7:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: honour
	I do like your EU background for Obi-Wan. I've never understood why Lucas has not bothered to give him much of one. As for Lucas saying Yoda may have trained Skywalker in a way that he wouldn't have become Darth Vader, why didn't he have him do that then (yeah, there's the fact that it would have been a different story), and why didn't Lucas give any hint of that in AOTC? I got the sense from AOTC Yoda didn't think Skywalker should be trained by anyone. As I said, I look forward to reading more.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/22/04 9:21am Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (42/?) 6/22
	honour wrote: I do like your EU background for Obi-Wan. I've never understood why Lucas has not bothered to give him much of one. To give fanfic authors something to play with! As for Lucas saying Yoda may have trained Skywalker in a way that he wouldn't have become Darth Vader, <snip> why didn't Lucas give any hint of that in AOTC? That may or may not be coming in Episode III . . . my guess is that the lasting impression we'll have of Anakin's fall is that there were missed opportunities on the part of several people to prevent the things that lead up to it, but that the "dark side swtich" was fundamentally Anakin's choice. My take on the issue is that the universe dealt Anakin the cards, but he chose how to play them. As I said, I look forward to reading more. ::bows:: <Farmboy Westley>As you wish.</Farmboy Westley> **** Rising up on his elbow slightly, Anakin said, "Master Windu thinks I am." "I know. He's told me so," Obi-Wan said, not looking up from his drawing. "But you don't agree," Anakin said. "I think," Obi-Wan said, setting down his grass pen and turning to look down at his apprentice, "that you're a very brave, compassionate young man with a lot of potential," and here he paused to stroke Anakin's hair, "who's also in my way. I can't work with you leaning against me, young one." Maddened by the affectionate brush-off, Anakin made a frustrated noise and sat up straight again. Obi-Wan got up off his crate and began working on his plan from a new angle. Leaning forward on hands and knees, he added a long line of circles to the edge of a jagged double line meant to represent Moroara Pass. Anakin took advantage of his move by resting his elbows on the crate. "I'm not a little boy anymore," he pointed out. "I know. If you were, we wouldn't be working so hard to teach you control," Obi-Wan said. He gave Anakin a steady look in the eye for a moment. "So how am I supposed to show control like an adult if you keep treating me like a kid?" Anakin demanded. Obi-Wan held out his hand as if to show that the answer was right in front of him. "Anakin," he pointed out, "you are a kid." That wasn't an argument Anakin had a reasoned answer for, and he gritted his teeth to keep from making a petulant response that he'd regret. Obi-Wan continued: "You're not a little child anymore, but you are still a child. For the next couple of years, your duty is to watch, to learn, and to obey. You participate more in our missions than you probably ought to as it is." Losing his resolve to say quiet, Anakin shot back, "That's because I'm useful. And a lot of the time, I'm right." "Sometimes," Obi-Wan said, with a dubious note in his voice. He let that word hang in the air long enough to make Anakin fidget. He was aware that he was dangerously close to the line with his Master. So far, Obi-Wan had been firm but patient with him, but that could change if Anakin pushed his luck. Anakin was still sentenced to be stuck at his side for an indeterminate time, and Obi-Wan was capable of making that time living hell if he chose. "You can indeed be useful," Obi-Wan continued, "but I won't let your utility get in the way of what's best for you. And right now, what's best for you is to accept that you are a sixteen-year-old Padawan learner. You must be content with the privileges and responsibilities that position comes with." //Yeah,// Anakin thought. //Like all three of them.// "And another thing," Obi-Wan said. He pointed a stern finger at his apprentice's nose and said, "I want the poor attitude to improve, unless you want to spend the rest of the evening standing in the corner, staring at the wall. Am I making myself clear?" Anakin knew a line in the sand when he heard one, and he lowered his gaze to the floor. Now he'd have to be the oh-so-proper Padawan, accepting a reprimand from his infinitely wise teacher. "Yes, Master," he said curtly. "Very clear, Master." "Good," Obi-Wan said. As he returned to his drafting work he added, "We all have a place in this universe, Anakin. It's time you learned yours." "Yes, Master," Anakin said. "I'll work on it, Master." He sat in silence for a time, trying to stop his whole body from quivering with the desire to shout at Obi-Wan, to accuse him of . . . what? That was part of the problem. Obi-Wan hadn't done anything, except to discipline him justly for un-Jedilike behavior and insist on being spoken to with respect. The part of Anakin's brain that was capable of functioning outside the realm of emotion told him that his recent behavior wasn't even acceptable for a ten-year-old Padawan, much less a sixteen-year-old one. It was he who owed Obi-Wan an apology, not the other way around. Yet the man was so . . . dismissive. Obi-Wan's whole attitude was, "Oh, thank you for offering to help out, little boy. Now go back to playing with your toys." Anakin found that intolerable. One day he'd be old enough and powerful enough to show Obi-Wan that he was someone who should be listened to. **** End 42/? -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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solojones Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 6/22/04 1:25pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (42/?) 6/22
	Sometimes I get very myopically focused on doing things "right," which could never possibly explain my personal identification with a certain Jedi Knight whose initials are "Obi-Wan." Oh, trust me, I know exactly how you feel. In fact, the effect might be heightened further if m'lady were tragically dead at the time, along with her brave Jedi protectors. I’m sure you wish, Vengence. But to get to them, you’re going to have to go through me. And I’m real, and you’re not, so guess who’s going to win? I really love that Vengence has his own motives in all of this. Clearly he’s going to resent the fact that Sidious wants Skywalker so badly for his apprentice. His mixed respect for and dislike of Obi-Wan is great. That’s definitely how I would see a Sith viewing him. Vengence realises Obi-Wan could be his undoing, but of course tries to cover up insecurities and shortcoming with hatred like a typical Sith. This is the last of the stuff that was posted back in 2002! ::smashes bottle of champaigne over top of computer, computer dies, cats look confused:: Cheers! Here’s to a great future for the story. I have foreseen it. In a ritual Obi-Wan had already repeated a dozen times, he turned to hold his makeshift pen over the flame of a borrowed oil lamp. When the stem caught fire, he cupped it with his hand and blew it out. Herbal-scented smoke curled upward from the pen tip as he began sketching the route Perahta's troops would take through the Pass. You see what I mean about you being so great at the little details? The culture and story you’ve created here is so rich in texture. takes notes I thought the conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan over if Anakin should take the cube off-world was really interesting. On one hand, I had to agree with Anakin that this was about much more than his own mistakes. However, he could manage to make things worse. Also, Obi-Wan has a point that if they wait it out, a solution may present itself (sound familiar anyone? ) Obi-Wan nodded gravely and said, "If you could do that, then you truly would be the Chosen One." The noncommital mildness in his voice told Anakin that Obi-Wan believed he was indulging the fantasy of a child. See the thing is, when Obi-Wan does treat Anakin more gently (as you write the relationship at this point), Anakin doesn’t like that either because he doesn’t want to be talked down to. I don’t think Anakin would be happy with anything other than free reign because, well, he’s a rebellious teenager One day he'd be old enough and powerful enough to show Obi-Wan that he was someone who should* be listened to.* shiver Oooh, foreshadowing Will that be right before he kicks your arse all the way to the lava, punk? Ophelia, I like your portrayal of this relationship because it feels more true to the films to me than many. I find that a lot of Obi-Wan fans shy away from making him very stern because they think it’s ‘mean’. They don’t realise that if you change that, he’s not Obi-Wan anymore! He has his flaws but some of those things they view as him being ‘mean’ are just him being him. By the renound MBTI personality analysis, he is an ISTJ. What does that mean? You might find this page interesting. It describes that personality type and honestly screams Obi-Wan. Sorry that this reply is noticably lacking in wit. It's far too hot in here right now for that -sj loves kevin spacey -----signature----- 6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation My short films: http://www.youtube.com/solojones1138
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diamond_pony2002 Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/22/04 2:54pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (42/?) 6/22
	You're right! I did like that post! -----signature----- Learning to do, doing to learn, earning to live, living to serve.- FFA Motto
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/22/04 3:15pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (42/?) 6/22 - Date Edited: 6/22/04 3:16pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ophelia
	Edit: Thank you, Diamond_pony2002! solojones wrote: I’m sure you wish, Vengence. But to get to them, you’re going to have to go through me. And I’m real, and you’re not, so guess who’s going to win? Okay, that made me laugh out loud. Vengeance has no idea what to say to that. He's stomped off to his room and slammed the door. I really love that Vengence has his own motives in all of this. Clearly he’s going to resent the fact that Sidious wants Skywalker so badly for his apprentice. His mixed respect for and dislike of Obi-Wan is great. That’s definitely how I would see a Sith viewing him. Vengence realises Obi-Wan could be his undoing, but of course tries to cover up insecurities and shortcoming with hatred like a typical Sith. Yeah . . . stupid Sith. Vengeance is still quite young, just nineteen (at least that's young to me!), and he's been in training for about the same amount of time as Anakin, so in a way, he's more of a Sith Jr. It doesn't make him less dangerous--in fact, it arguably makes him more dangerous since he might or might not obey the man who's "pulling the strings." So Obi-Wan's not the only one who's got a rebellious teen on his hands. I also see a certain pathetic neediness under all of that hate . . . he expends a lot of energy thinking nasty thoughts about the emotional bonds the Jedi have with one another, but I suspect he's protesting a bit too much. Vengeance has got all kinds of ready-made reasons to hate Anakin, but I think his hatred of Obi-Wan is more complicated . . . some tiny little part of him wishes that it had been Obi-Wan, and not Sidious, who found him when he was young. For this reason, Obi-Wan's got to die. Yep. Makes sense. You see what I mean about you being so great at the little details? Thank you . . . FWIW, I stole the battle plan drawing of circles and triangles directly from "The Seven Samurai," 'cause it's really cool. Of course, if I pretend this is literature, I can call it an "allusion," and not theft at all. Obi-Wan has a point that if they wait it out, a solution may present itself (sound familiar anyone? Yeah, Obi-Wan's over thirty and now finds himself turning into "dad" . . . I don’t think Anakin would be happy with anything other than free reign because, well, he’s a rebellious teenager. Yeah, pretty much. That, and the demigodlike power thing. It's not good for him, really. It would be better if Obi-Wan could keep it in his desk and give it back to Anakin when he's ready. Will that be right before he kicks your arse all the way to the lava, punk? I am excited about this already. ::bouncy, bouncy, bouncy, bouncy . . .:: I find that a lot of Obi-Wan fans shy away from making him very stern because they think it’s ‘mean’. There's definitely a fine line there . . . just listen to parents bicker about whether a particular disciplinary action is "too harsh" for their kid or not. And these are people who married each other! One person's justified sternness is another person's meanness. I mentioned before that I had a lot of trouble writing this scene originally, and I found that it seemed to work best when A) Obi-Wan's responses were obviously not personal, and B) his reaction was just slightly less severe than (I thought) could be reasonably justified. Given the culture they live in, I see Obi-Wan as cutting Anakin a fair amount of slack here. Others, I'm sure, would disagree. On a vaguely related note, I saved an excellent post by Lady Damia on Jedi culture and stuck it in my notes for this story. I think she underplays the role that compassion plays in the belief system of Jedi, but she's trying to make a point. (I've edited the post somewhat for length.) . . . GL has made it clear that the Jedi are primarily based on Zen Buddhism - they are, in other words, a spiritual yet militant/diplomatic order rather like the Knights Templar were during the Middle Ages. You insist on talking of them like they were a modern youth club with some interest in martal arts, applying modern adolescent educational psychology to their training methods. This is as wrong-headed as saying, during the Coruscant chase scene: 'This is stupid. Cars can't fly'. Well yes - they cannot, in our Universe. THIS, however, is the GFFA. What is the point of following Science Fiction if you do not accept it on it's own terms? <snip> And as far as he has indicated, the Master-Apprentice relationship is based on that in Zen Buddhism - which means that whoever it was who said that Obi-Wan had the 'right' to do pretty much anything with his apprentice, was absolutely correct. Complete obedience and respect towards one's Master is the foundation of a Zen Buddhist Master-Apprentice relationship. As spiritual-cum-militant order, the Jedi are moreover concerned with humility, selflessness, respect of one's superiors, self-denial. This makes their training hard, demanding - in short, at times seemingly totally unfair (from a modern 'PC' point of view!) It is not meant to be FUN for crying out loud! It is not necessary for a Jedi to be loved - or even understood! That is NOT what his life is about. His life is about SERVICE - and being trained to the nth degree to be able to perform that service to the best of his ability! Do you think the US and UK Special Troops who have been fighting in Afganistan during the past year thought their training was FUN? Do you think they could serve their countries and their countrymen by wanting to be understood - and only talked to nicely - and never yelled at by their superior officers - and never disciplined - or punished for what are breaches of the protocols of the service they have voluntarily joined? And please note, by the way, - that is indeed what it is called - a SERVICE - exactly like the Jedi!! Unfortunately, none of the qualities mentioned above are ones Anakin excels in. In the end, he put his own personal happiness before the dedication to the life of service that being a Jedi is all about. And as was expected, this ultimately made him incapable of becoming a Jedi - as we will find out in Episode III. . . . I couldn't say it better myself, which is why I stole it. By the renound MBTI personality analysis, he is an ISTJ. What does that mean? You might find this page interesting. It describes that personality type and honestly screams* Obi-Wan.* Hey, that was cool! That does sound exactly like Obi-Wan. For years, I used to use a Meyers-Briggs personality-type book for developing characters, before the book fell apart and I decided the method was too clunky anyway. I seem to recall that they made ISTJ's sound like permanently-constipated, pocket-protector-wearing weenies. The writeup on the site you found is considerably more heroic sounding. Sorry that this reply is noticably lacking in wit. Scarcely--and no reply from you is a bad one, solojones. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/23/04 8:57am Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (43/?) 6/23
	**** After a while Obi-Wan looked up at him. Perhaps sensing that Anakin was about at the limit of the emotional tension he could withstand with dignity, the Master Jedi spoke with more understanding: "Part of learning your place is simply learning who you are," he explained. "When you find that out, accepting your proper role won't seem shameful or confining at all. It will feel natural--liberating, actually. It's wearying to try to be things that you're not, or to chase unrealistic dreams you ought to let go. Finding your niche in the world is the one thing that's likely to give you peace, Anakin, but I'm afraid it will take time. No one finds out who he is overnight." Anakin had to admit that the idea made some sense when Obi-Wan put it like that, but he still wasn’t ready to talk to him. Obi-Wan continued: "You can hate me if you want. I wouldn't be doing my job if you didn't hate me occasionally. Just don't let your feelings about me get in the way of your training. You're not undertaking it for my sake, after all, you're doing it for yours. Somewhere inside of you is the man you're meant to be." He emphasized this idea by pointing toward Anakin's chest, as if a guiding spirit were in there already, waiting to be discovered. "Look for him. Try to listen to him. He's the one who knows what your true place in the scheme of things will be. One day, he'll be obvious to you.” Anakin looked up at his Master and saw that his eyes were soft with compassion. “But until that time,” Obi-Wan said, “you’ll have to put up with my guidance instead. That won’t feel as good or as right as listening to your own true inner voice. How could it? I’m not you. Perhaps everything I think I know about you is wrong, I don’t know.” That got a bitter half-smile from Anakin. “All I can tell you is that I’m trying to put you on the path to finding that voice,” Obi-Wan said. “I wish I could tell you the path will be easy. It won’t be.” Anakin sat without speaking for a moment after he had finished, and then said quietly, "Yes, Master." "Take some time to think about that," Obi-Wan said. His tone was kind, and Anakin found he couldn't be really mad at him anymore. “I will, Master," he said. He sat quietly for a while and turned Obi-Wan's words over in his mind. For the most part he found them to be healing words. He did so want to be freed from the shackles of always wanting, wanting, wanting things he could not have, and of always feeling out of place and left out, like a stranger in his own life. Yet it worried him that Obi-Wan had as much as said that finding this “inner voice” would require Anakin to make painful choices. Anakin was pretty sure that from a Jedi perspective, Obi-Wan's comment about "unrealistic dreams" would include maintaining a powerful emotional connection to his mother. He was definitely sure it would include any future marriage to Padmé. Anakin wasn't always enthusiastic about Obi-Wan's teaching style, but for once the Master Jedi had laid out the path to Knighthood with remarkable clarity, and Anakin was afraid to follow. How could he possibly find his true self in a life without his mother and Padmé? They were part of him--the best part of him, he sometimes thought. Even now, when he was still smarting under his Master's reprimands and feeling disappointed in himself, he wanted to draw the spirits of the two women closer. Thoughts of them could comfort and guide him the way no meditation on the Force ever could. He followed his thoughts down one blind alley after another, until they finally wore him out. He did not dare reveal the source of his torment to his Master, since he knew what Obi-Wan's answer would be. //You can't have all things, Anakin,// he'd say. //You've got to choose one path or the other.// Then again, maybe if he really was the Chosen One, all the Jedi philosophy stuff would fall into place on its own without him having to make a terrible choice. He could only hope so. He cherished his “unrealistic dreams” too much to let them go. **** End 43/? -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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DarthPenguin Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/23/04 9:43am Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (43/?) 6/23
	Obi-Wan is truly wise beyond his years but has no idea that he's fighting a losing battle. He and Anakin will never be operating on the same wave-length. It's indicative of how far aprt they really are when Anakin initially takes his master's comment about "learning his place" as a put-down, as in being "put" in his place as opposed to "learning" his place, which is what Obi-Wan is talking about. The entire conversation is critical in terms of their relationship. Obi-Wan incorrectly believes that all will be well if he offers proper guidance and sets the example. And there's the rub. The example he sets is that of the Perfect Jedi. he really is the beau ideal of a Jedi Knight. And Chosen One or not, Anakin cannot possibly live up to that standard. He will never conquer his inner demons. He will always be driven by his wants and needs and doesn't see any reason why he should HAVE to make any choice that is painful. That he is even holding onto the dream of one day marrying Padme indicates that perhaps he is already beyond Obi-Wan's reach. Wonderfully written scene.
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bibphile Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/23/04 2:49pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (43/?) 6/23 - Date Edited: 6/23/04 2:56pm (1 edits total) Edited By: bibphile
	You know from the (really long) e-mails I send the on the first version of your story that I really enjoyed it an look forward to seeing what happens. I must admit though, -that this most recent chapter doesn't sound like Obi-Wan at all to me. Of course you admit that you pretty much skipped AotC Obi-Wan and went straight to ANH Obi-Wan, but I'm still not sure it meshes. Warning: this goes off into the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship in general and isn't all directly related to your story. Obi-Wan doesn't strike me as somebody who would tell Anakin that listening to himself (even in the future) is better than listening to Obi-Wan. It's also strange that Obi-Wan would speak about Anakin listening to himself while telling him to go against everything his inner self tells him (Shmi and Padme). (Of course the Shmi/Padme thing so have to do with Obi-Wan truly believing in the way the Jedi do things.) He seems to have a hard time saying Anakin could know better than him in any situation. For example, in AoTC when Anakin said that he could sense what was happening in Padme's room, Obi-Wan said that Anakin's senses weren't that sharp. Yet Anakin sensed the danger before Obi-Wan. Later, Obi-Wan got onto Anakin when he thought Anakin had lost the bounty hunter during the speeder chase. Anakin was cutting the bounty hunter off. I can understand why Obi-Wan never acknowledged the first. It is not acceptable to use a senator for bait - even if it is her idea. But there was no reason not to mention that Anakin was right in the second incident. If there was time to lecture him about rushing into the club then there was time to say "You were right; good job." I can't help but notice that the way Shmi taught Anakin seems to work much better than the way Obi-Wan teaches him. Shmi basically taught Anakin to help people because he could. Every petrson (including a slave) can make the galaxy better. It often seems that everything Obi-Wan teaches him is because he's a Jedi. Go on this mission because the Council said so. Help these people because it's what Jedi do. Anakin did already have the roots of serious issues when he left Tatooine and Palpatine was a major factor, but I still think Obi-Wan handled Anakin very wrongly. (Mostly because they are very different and they don't understand each other.) Of course, I think the entire Order needs a majot overhaul as of AotC.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/23/04 4:33pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (43/?) 6/23
	DarthPenguin: Thank you for your kind comments! And yes, Anakin doesn't "get it" until it's too late. I decided a while ago that one of the guy's underlying issues was an identity problem. On the one hand, he thinks he's God. On the other, he thinks he's this poor little victim that nobody appreciates and everybody picks on. Obviously, neither is true. And since I am studying for my state teacher certification exam as we speak (or, actually, not studying for it . . .) I can tell you that Erikson's theory of development states that the main conflict of adolescence is "identity vs. role confusion." Of course, to develop an identity you need to make choices--"I believe this, but not that. I'm willing to do these things, but not those things." Anakin won't make choices, because he wants everything both ways. He wants to be a Jedi and still get married to Padmé. He wants the respect given to adults but the care and forbearance given to children. Etc., etc., etc. What Obi-Wan is telling him here is "grow up, for pity's sake," although he's doing it in a very gentle, diplomatic way. bibphile: Hello! And welcome back. Obi-Wan doesn't strike me as somebody who would tell Anakin that listening to himself (even in the future) is better than listening to Obi-Wan. Well, he's certainly not telling him it would be okay to hop on the GFFA equivalent of Ken Kesey's Merry Pranksters bus and drive off to points unknown to "find himself." In Obi-Wan's mind, Anakin's "true" inner voice is that of a mature, disciplined Jedi Knight. All other internal goals and impulses are the result of youthful inexperience or outright self-deception. Obi-Wan's got a streak of St. Augustine in him here, in that he's implying that there is an inborn longing for the divine which can only be revealed by a total commitment to clearing away the self-deception which leads to sin. Augustine presented what is arguably the toughest mainline Christian position on self-discipline and self-denial, so his theology isn't for sissies. There's a precedent for the general idea in Buddhism, too; the idea is that a person who falls for the illusions (or attachments) of the world accumulates karma, which further confuses him about his true relationship to the universe. If he can get rid of all his karma, then he'll merge with the spirit of the universe (Atman) in a state of nirvana. Ironically, the person was never separated from the Atman in the first place, he only thought he was. However, you're quite right that the statement is ambiguous, and to a certain extent it shows that Obi-Wan sees the world by the light he casts. Anakin certainly takes it in a way that Obi-Wan didn't mean. As for whether Obi-Wan would ever want Anakin to function independently, without Obi-Wan there to tell him what to do, I certainly hope he wants that. I suppose it's possible that he's so despotic that he wants to remain the controlling "power behind the Chosen One" forever. In fact, in AOTC we see some evidence that Anakin believes this. However, that sort of attitude sounds more like Palpatine than Obi-Wan to me. I suspect that Anakin is also "seeing the world by the light he casts" when he rambles on at Padmé about how Obi-Wan is jealous and fundamentally power-hungry. It often seems that everything Obi-Wan teaches him is because he's a Jedi. Go on this mission because the Council said so. Help these people because it's what Jedi do. For a certain type of person, there is little or no distinction between the letter and the spirit of the law. An example would be an ultra-Orthodox Jew who won't even flip a lightswitch between Friday at sundown and Saturday at sundown, because that's a way he shows his total devotion to God. It's not that there's anything special about lightswitches, or even, necessarily, about the scripture that forbids doing work on the sabbath. The point is that this person would stand on his head for three days singing "Yankee Doodle" if that's what God wanted him to do. He doesn't need to understand a commandment or know why it's important. He might, in fact, be offended if you asked, since you would be showing that you have completely missed the point of his devotional activities. It's easy to poke fun at people who focus intently on rules and details in thier spiritual lives, since they get so worked up over things that are so "small." Some of these people are, in fact, control freaks who wouldn't know the spirit of the law if it hit them upside the head, but they aren't all. For some people, "sweating the small stuff" in their religion is the ultimate expression of devotion and self-abnegation. I like to think of Obi-Wan as the self-abnegating kind, but I admit that a reasonable person could argue that he's a control-obsessed zealot. YMMV I still think Obi-Wan handled Anakin very wrongly. (Mostly because they are very different and they don't understand each other.) I'll go on record as saying that Obi-Wan was the wrong teacher for Anakin, but that Anakin's fall was fundamentally his own choice. (If it wasn't, then his redemption at the end of ROTJ has little meaning.) And speaking as an entry-level teacher myself, I can tell you that it takes years to become a competent teacher to the percentage of children for whom your style naturally "works." Being able to alter that style to meet the majority of children's needs--in effect, morphing at will into whatever kind of teacher a child responds to--takes a lifetime of practice. Nobody ever masters it completely, and I don't think I've ever seen a teacher who's been in the classroom less than 20 years come close to reaching that goal. I'm not going to blame Obi-Wan for failing to know ahead of time exactly which "buttons" to push in Anakin's head, especially since the guy's got other problems to worry about. Sith-dodging and things. Of course, I think the entire Order needs a majot overhaul as of AotC. Yeah, I'll agree with you there. I think a lot of people could have done things differently, and perhaps prevented some of the things that led Anakin toward Vader-dom. However, I still think Anakin made the final decision to put the black helmet on his head. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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bibphile Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/23/04 5:33pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (43/?) 6/23 - Date Edited: 6/24/04 3:51am (3 edits total) Edited By: bibphile
	However, I still think Anakin made the final decision to put the black helmet on his head. Of course he did. He made the choice and bears the ultimate responsibility. I just don't think he had much a chance. He was born into circumstance that breed fear and anger. Then he was taken in by an order that doesn't seem to have made the slightest effort to understand how he might need something different than most of their students. Then there's Palpatine. The man was able to deceive most of the Senate into cheering when he killed the Republic. It took years after that for most of the galaxy to see that he was evil (if previous backstory holds). And he sat acress the table from two members of the Jedi Council and they had no clue what he was. If he can fool all these people, what chance does one nine year old boy have? I'm quite sure believing he is doing the right thing. (Of course, I could still be wrong.) I am not trying to say that Anakin is not responsible for his actions. I just think the deck was seriously stacked against him. I'm not going to blame Obi-Wan for failing to know ahead of time exactly which "buttons" to push in Anakin's head, especially since the guy's got other problems to worry about. Sith-dodging and things. Of course not. I don't expect him to get it exactly wright. But even after ten years he seems to still be doing it exactly wrong.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/24/04 11:59am Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (44/?) 6/24
	Eh, there are already 3 million threads about whose "fault" Vader is. Let's leave it there. **** At length he gave up trying to work it all out in his head, and just sat and watched Obi-Wan sketch out his plans on the floor for a while. "I'm sorry I was disrespectful, Master," he said quietly. Obi-Wan had been a good teacher and foster-father to him, and he deserved better than to constantly have to deal with his rebelliousness and insecurities. "Thank you, Anakin. It's all right," Obi-Wan said. The Master Jedi glanced up at him, and Anakin saw warmth in his eyes. "I'm glad you took time to really think about what I said." That was what Obi-Wan wanted to talk about, but Anakin steered away from the subject. "Is that us?" Anakin asked, pointing at the row of circles Obi-Wan had drawn. In ancient Jedi shorthand, circles stood in for defenders. "This?" Obi-Wan asked, sounding surprised. He looked down at the line of circles and said, "Yes, that's us." "What are the triangles, then?" Anakin asked. He could sense that Obi-Wan was a bit disappointed he didn’t want to talk more about becoming a better Jedi, but that he wasn’t going to make Anakin have a heart-to-heart on the subject if he wasn’t ready. "Well . . ." Obi-Wan said, straightening up and seeming to change mental gears, "the triangles are the Coridani forces coming through the Pass." Anakin leaned forward with his elbows on the crate, and gave Obi-Wan what he hoped was a very meek, endearing look. "Tell me?" Obi-Wan just looked at him for a moment, and then shook his head with a "here we go again" smile. At first Anakin thought he was going to remind him about his place again, but then he sighed and said, "All right, Anakin, I suppose you've had enough lecturing for one day. I've certainly had enough of giving lectures." Anakin eagerly leaned even farther forward, waiting for Obi-Wan to explain his drawing. "At the moment,” Obi-Wan began, “the plan I have has us making speeder runs up to the canyon lip. We'll fire downward at supply vehicles, lighter scout transports . . . anything we can disable. After that, we'll skirt the edge of the canyon and head back into the trees, where we won't be accessible to their ground forces. Ideally, we should be able to attain nearly continuous fire down into the Pass without exposing any one fighter to enemy fire for more than a few seconds at a time. My thought was that if we damaged enough of their vehicles, we might be able to create a blockade and keep the heavier troop transports from getting through for a time." Anakin thought about that, imagining how the battle would take place in the rocky canyons he'd known on Tattooine. "You know . . . you could have people just shoot at the opposite canyon wall," he said. "That would to knock loose boulders and things. It might not be enough to crush the tougher vehicles, but a bunch of rocks would sure get in their way." Obi-Wan gave him a surprised look. Anakin could tell he wanted to tell him to go be a good Padawan and leave the battle planning to the grown-ups, but he couldn't ignore the practicality of the idea. "That . . ." he began, slowly considering, "is not a bad idea." He turned to look at his list of fighters again. "It would be a way to use the fighters who are very poor shots, such as . . ." he scanned the list, "Blind Uwe." There was a rather dispirited pause for a moment as both Jedi contemplated the fact that they even had a fighter called "Blind Uwe." **** End 44/? -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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DarthPenguin Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/24/04 12:57pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (44/?) 6/24
	Can't help but chuckle thinking of the Obi-Wan Kenobi in AOTC who was so-o-o-o-o admamant about not exceeding his mandate. He is not only exceeding it here, he has surpassed it the length of the Kessel Run. Since his mission was solely to find the missing do-gooders he is really sticking his neck out not only participating in a local dispute, but mapping out a strategy of attack. Even Qui-Gon wasn't prepared to go to such lengths to assist Padme in her fight against the Trade Federation. he's going to be in for a BIG talking to when he gets home.
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bibphile Registered: Feb '03	Date Posted: 6/24/04 1:28pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (44/?) 6/24 - Date Edited: 6/24/04 1:37pm (1 edits total) Edited By: bibphile
	There was a rather dispirited pause for a moment as both Jedi contemplated the fact that they even had* a fighter called "Blind Uwe."* Nice line. It sums things up rather well.
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/24/04 5:29pm Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (44/?) 6/24
	DarthPenguin wrote: Can't help but chuckle thinking of the Obi-Wan Kenobi in AOTC who was so-o-o-o-o admamant about not exceeding his mandate. He is not only exceeding it here, he has surpassed it the length of the Kessel Run. Yeah . . . one of the reasons I had him and Anakin unable to contact anyone on Coruscant was to see what Obi-Wan would do in a situation where he had to make tough decisions but couldn't get any input from his superiors. For one thing, that ups the angst factor. (Always a good thing.) For another, Obi-Wan's a lot more fun when he's in "You are reckless!" mode rather than "You're a wiser man than I am" mode. Since his mission was solely to find the missing do-gooders he is really sticking his neck out not only participating in a local dispute, but mapping out a strategy of attack. I think he'd argue it was a defense, but yes, he's definitely gotten himself into a position where he never intended to be. One thing just sort of led to another . . . he's going to be in for a BIG talking to when he gets home. Yeah, probably . . . although I like to think that the Council will show some compassion because of Obi-Wan's unusual circumstances. So far, the story's focused almost exclusively on Anakin's problems, but there will be more about Obi-Wan's later. I see him as being rather dependent on the Order's structure and guidance at this point in his life, and I think he's feeling a bit anxious and abandoned at the moment. Obviously, he's going to need to work this out before he appoints himself as the Jundland Waste's resident hermit. bibphile wrote: Nice line. It sums things up rather well. Thank you! Obi-Wan's in denial a bit over his wonderful plan, but hey, denial's gotten a lot of people through hard times. -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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ophelia Title: Ex-Mod Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/25/04 11:10am Subject: RE: Spirit Warriors of Angharad (45/?) 6/25 - Date Edited: 6/25/04 11:11am (1 edits total) Edited By: ophelia
	**** Trying to be helpful, Anakin said, "I think he's only mostly blind, Master." "Well, thank goodness for that," Obi-Wan said. "For a moment I was worried." He sat looking unhappily at the list of his fighters for a short time, and then he sighed and Anakin sensed him releasing his sense of hopelessness to the Force. "Well," he said at last, "it doesn't pay to dwell on the negative." He looked back up at his apprentice and said, "I like the boulder idea, Anakin. That's very clever. How did you come up with it?" "Sand People do it all the time back home," Anakin said. Obi-Wan nodded, taking that in. He seemed to carefully weigh his words before asking his next question, "What else do Sand People do?" "Well," Anakin said, thinking a moment, "sometimes they'll set junked speeders on fire and push them over cliffs at supply convoys and things. Speeders are usually worth a lot more to them in scrap parts though, so that's kind of rare. Usually they'll push down barrels of this liquid stuff that burns instead. When the barrel breaks open at the bottom of a canyon, it'll explode. I'm not sure what the stuff is, but if you get hit with it it'll stick. They actually covered the walls of a crevasse with it during one pod race I was in, and set it on fire as the main pack of racers went through." As an afterthought, he added, "That was one where I broke down on the first lap." "Well, thank the Force for that," Obi-Wan said, looking faintly horrified. "You get rid of Sand People on a pod racing course by firing at them from the air," Anakin said. "You take a Skyhopper with a couple of front-mounted guns welded onto it and then fly it over where they're at, kind of strafing the ground. Even if you don't hit them, you can usually at least scare off their banthas." He scratched at the hair behind his ear thoughtfully a moment, then said, "That's what worries me about this," he said, pointing at Obi-Wan's drawing. "What do we do about Perahta's air power? "We shouldn't be visible from the air because of all the tree cover," Obi-Wan said. "They'll still have scanners," Anakin pointed out. "Yes, I'd thought about that . . ." Obi-Wan said, looking down at his battle plan. "If we had a really good insulator, fire blankets maybe, we might we able to dampen the heat signals of the Landcats a bit. However, the Coridani ships would still be picking up engine emissions, the way you do with your . . . project." He gestured toward the farmyard where Anakin's modified speeder bike stood. After a moment he glanced up at Anakin and asked, "Since you've got a database of engine signatures, do you think you could create false ones?" "You mean could R2 and I forge signatures, so the Coridani wouldn't know which ones to target?" Anakin asked. R2 broke in with an enthusiastic series of beeps. Anakin turned around toward the droid's place in the corner and said, "Yeah, I know you record in high-density data, but how would you broadcast it?" The droid whistled an answer, and Anakin said, "But I don't have a whole bunch of transmitters. Besides, what would we attach them to? If I just stick them on a tree, the Coridani are going to notice that some of the engine signatures are moving and some of them aren't." R2 warbled an unhappy reply, and Anakin said, "Well, maybe it is the best idea you ever had, but it's still going to need some work." R2 conceded the point with a disappointed whistle. After a few moments of consideration, Anakin turned to Obi-Wan and said, "Probably the simplest thing to do would just be to just distort the engine discharge," he said. "You can do that by fitting some good emission dampers on them--just like you're supposed to use on Coruscant." Actually, a large percentage of Coruscant's population didn't bother, which was probably one reason why machinery near the path of high-traffic grid patterns broke down a lot, and why there were mutated vermin living in a lot of the city's crawl spaces. That was another story, however. "Dampers will kind of spread the emission pattern out, so it'll be harder to target precisely. The Coridani will still know there's something there under the tree cover, but you might be able to fuzz out their double-zero point from three or four meters to maybe six or seven. If your dampers are good, that is. But even if you can only get it to five or six meters, that'll make a big difference with something as small as a Landcat." "It would be a bit difficult to get hold of parts like that," Obi-Wan said, running his hand thoughtfully over his beard. "But . . . it's not impossible." The moment he heard the hesitation in Obi-Wan's voice, Anakin knew he was thinking of Pepik Ketanqa and his unusual occupation. Anakin couldn't help grinning. He loved it when Obi-Wan was willing to deviate from proper Jedi protocol and take chances. **** End 45/? -----signature----- In the jungle, the mighty jungle, the lion sleeps with your mom
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