Author Topic: What do we do about Same-Sex Marriage?
Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 1/18/04 5:51pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
I am heterosexual and married, but I love my brother.. Where do I fit into your scheme?

Had you read the statement more carefully, you per chance would have seen that A_G had specified, in love. If the socially recognized difference between love and being in love escapes you, then that is a problem you must work out on your own.

You seem to have an extremely narrow view of relationships

Urgent message from Pot: "Kettle, you're black."


Toward the purpose of clarification

Argument: Love (the act of loving, or being "in love") is not required by the government to enter into a marriage.

If this is true, what of immigration laws and the Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendments (1986), wherein it states that a woman petitioning as an immigrant spouse is admitted as a "conditional" resident alien after her initial petition is approved? The conditional status is contingent upon her ability to maintain a valid, two-year marriage. If the couple is unable to show their marriage to be true and valid, residency can be revoked and the immigrant can be deported.

Upon qualification (or eligibility to marry), the only requirement for marriage in all 50 states is that the ceremony for marriage include the vow (promise) to commit only to each other in marriage.

And a handful of states still require a marriage to be consumated by sexual acts so as to be valid.

Entering into an "UNhealthy relationship", wherein the couple are not conjoined as a family unit, but for other purposes such as finance, convenience, etc, is not conducive to the plans of many conservative programs and initiatives that are promoting marriage. What is a healthy marriage?
According to familyanswers.org:
Studies and surveys reveal that the following qualities and characteristics usually are found in strong, successful families:
  • Ability to resolve conflict

  • Flexibility and willingness to compromise

  • Commitment

  • Fulfillment

  • Time together and time alone

  • Ability to deal with crisis and stress

  • Ability to handle money problems

  • Open and honest lines of communication

  • Sense of humor

  • Mutual love and caring

  • Expression of appreciation

  • Genuine liking for one another

  • Flexibility in gender roles

  • Religion and shared faith
Can homosexual couples have these qualities? Certainly.
Do homosexual couples have these qualities? Absolutely.

Who gets hurt?
According to the U.S. Census, approximately 156,000 homosexual households in America have children (60,000 male couples, 96,000 female couples).
Currently, these children live in families not recognized by the government. that is to say, they are technically single-parent families. If the Adoptive parent dies or becomes incapacitated, custody is not afforded to the domestic partner, thus putting the child[ren] into foster care or other adoption facilities. What does presient Bush say about keeping the family together?
To encourage marriage and promote the well-being of children, I have proposed a healthy marriage initiative to help couples develop the skills and knowledge to form and sustain healthy marriages. Research has shown that, on average, children raised in households headed by married parents fare better than children who grow up in other family structures. Through education and counseling programs, faith-based, community, and government organizations promote healthy marriages and a better quality of life for children. By supporting responsible child-rearing and strong families, my Administration is seeking to ensure that every child can grow up in a safe and loving home.
-President George W. Bush, Proclamation of Marriage Protection Week, 2003
Sally Kalson writes about the conflicting messages within this viewpoint:
(2002) When President Bush announced his intention to promote marriage as an antidote for poverty, he was doing several things intentionally: appealing to social conservatives in the Republican Party; signaling his desire to reduce the costs of welfare reform; making warm and fuzzy sound bites for the 6 o'clock news.

But without realizing it, Bush was also doing something else that will make those same social conservatives apoplectic, as soon as it sinks into their right-brained heads: He was making the case for legalized partnerships for gay and lesbian parents, and for the necessity of allowing them to adopt each other's children.

Not that I expect the president or the Family Research Council to admit it, but this whole marriage initiative has set them on a collision course. Their ideology contains two conflicting imperatives that simply cannot coexist.

Marriage -- or civil union, or whatever name one might choose for the legal relationship that marriage affords -- is either good for children or it's not. It cannot be good for the children of heterosexual couples and bad for those of same-sex partners.

Of course, the president and his supporters have taken pains to say that they're referring only to marriage between a man and a woman. But that distinction contains a fatal flaw. The whole basis of their argument is the statistical evidence that kids in two-parent homes are more likely to do better in life. And children in the homes of lesbian and gay couples have two parents. It's not the grown-ups' chromosomes that are at issue here; it's the children's need for the permanence of an intact family.

Bush is so convinced that kids -- especially poor kids -- do better with two parents, he's willing to gamble $300 million [now proposing $1.3 billion for 2004 budget] in welfare money on encouraging marriage in poor communities.

That's a pretty strong statement. If two legally joined parents are more important to kids' well-being than all the other services that $300 million [now $1.3 billion] could provide -- child care, health care, subsidies for food and a place to live -- then it must be powerful medicine indeed.
Of the aforementioned 156,000 families, what is proposed to deal with these disrupted children when their needs are not met (legal rights and benefits) specifically because their parents are gay?
Some disruptions could include:
  • death of adoptive parent

  • medical benefits under the second parent (when the primary is a stay-at-home parent)
In this regard, the Massachusetts Supreme Court said:
"It cannot be rational under our laws, and indeed it is not permitted, to penalize children by depriving them of state benefits because the state disapproves of their parents' sexual orientation."




 

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Mr44  15123 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 1/18/04 5:55pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Hold on a second, these aren't mere technicalities we are bringing up.

This is what you said:

Yes, homosexuals are incapable of falling in love with someone of the opposite sex. That is why they are homosexual.

Anyone can fall in love for a multitude of reasons.

Our premise is that marriage does not automatically equal love, nor should the government be regulating emotion.

If the government regulated marriage based on such emotion, it would have to come up with the criteria, resulting in something like the Federal Standard that Genghis illustrated.

Your assertion is that since homosexuals can't marry the same sex, they are somehow prevented from loving that person.

That is not true, as the practice of love is not regulated, the offical criteria for marriage is.

 

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Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 1/18/04 5:57pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Your assertion is that since homosexuals can't marry the same sex, they are somehow prevented from loving that person.

The charge is actually about receiving equal rights and protections, as stated above.

 

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anakin_girl  14917 posts
Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR
Charlotte , NC

Registered: Oct '00
48285_Good Morning Galaxy
Date Posted: 1/18/04 6:03pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
The government can't regulate criteria for love, however, the government should not be preventing people who love each other from getting married, even if they are of the same sex.

Entering into an "UNhealthy relationship", wherein the couple are not conjoined as a family unit, but for other purposes such as finance, convenience, etc, is not conducive to the plans of many conservative programs and initiatives that are promoting marriage. What is a healthy marriage?

Thank you--this is what I was getting at.

 

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DarthYama  1005 posts
Registered: May '01
22834_Darth Maul
Date Posted: 1/18/04 6:16pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
You speak as if there is only one form of love.

 

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anakin_girl  14917 posts
Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR
Charlotte , NC

Registered: Oct '00
48285_Good Morning Galaxy
Date Posted: 1/18/04 6:25pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Yama: Most of the time only one form leads to marriage, and this is the form we're discussing.

I am heterosexual. I love my mother, my sister, and my female friends, but I don't want to marry any of them.

I also love Star Wars, but I don't want to marry it.

I love my husband, and I was allowed to marry him. However, if he were a woman, I wouldn't have been allowed to marry him, even if I held the same kind of love for him.

 

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Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 1/18/04 6:29pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage. - Date Edited: 1/18/04 6:32pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Cheveyo
You speak as if there is only one form of love.

See my above response, referencing a_g's quote "in love", and the social difference between loving and being in love. Your misunderstanding (like that of Mr44's) has already been addressed. Read the statement a_g had given. She said "in love".

Unless you are saying that "in love" has other definitions.

I just love it when I'm ignored.

 

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DarthYama  1005 posts
Registered: May '01
22834_Darth Maul
Date Posted: 1/18/04 7:37pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
AG, I wasn't talking about you. I speak of someone that says that if he loves his brother or something like that, it's grounds for marriage. Huh?

 

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anakin_girl  14917 posts
Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR
Charlotte , NC

Registered: Oct '00
48285_Good Morning Galaxy
Date Posted: 1/18/04 7:40pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
OK, I see--we're on the same side. tongue My bad.

 

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Kessel Runner  14103 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Apr '99
Date Posted: 1/18/04 11:17pm Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Cheveyo couldn't have said it any better.

Any of those against same-sex marriage, could you tell me if you have ever been "in love" with someone of the same sex? Of course you love your family, friends, etc, but are you "in love" with them? There is a very clear distinction here.


And I will addendum something a_g said earlier. A homosexual who is capable of falling in love with a person of the opposite sex is actually bi-sexual, but *that's another thread* wink

 

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Genghis12  18840 posts
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '99
8181_Hoojib
Date Posted: 1/19/04 5:55am Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Kessel_Runner, et. al...
"Of course you love your family, friends, etc, but are you "in love" with them? There is a very clear distinction here."

grin This is great! Talk about basing your entire argument on semantics. grin

 

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Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 1/19/04 9:19am Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
This is great! Talk about basing your entire argument on semantics.

Please expound.

 

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anakin_girl  14917 posts
Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR
Charlotte , NC

Registered: Oct '00
48285_Good Morning Galaxy
Date Posted: 1/19/04 11:07am Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Genghis:

Heterosexual couples who are in love with each other are allowed by law to marry.

Same-sex couples who are in love with each other are not allowed by law to marry.

This is unfair to same-sex couples.

 

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Cheveyo  5495 posts
Registered: Oct '01
47802_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 1/19/04 11:23am Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
I'm still curious to see why Genghis thinks "love" vs. "being in love" is nothing more than semantics, and how he came to this conclusion.

 

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DarthKarde  7343 posts
Registered: Jun '02
7823_Darth Sidious
Date Posted: 1/19/04 11:39am Subject: RE: The perfect solution towards the defense of marriage: Abolish the institution of marriage.
Heterosexual couples who are in love with each other are allowed by law to marry.

Same-sex couples who are in love with each other are not allowed by law to marry.

This is unfair to same-sex couples.


Being unfair does not make something wrong.

 

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