Jedi Council Forums - The Philosophy Of Science

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Author	Topic: The Philosophy Of Science
VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 12/21/03 7:11am Subject: The Philosophy Of Science
	I have a problem. I know very little concerning this topic. The subject came about in in the Classic Trilogy forum. A quick search through the WWW provided all kinds of pages concerning science and philosophy, and quite frankly it occured to me that this would not be a simple thing to get a basic understanding and then think I could post some meaningful and thought provoking topic. But I'm gonna try anyway. A search will yield ideas from Sacrates, Plato, talk of Occam's Razor, ethics, social implications, should we if we could, the scientific method, reality, blah blah blah. But there is one quick little page that asked one quick little question that I suspect may be the very heart of the whole matter. Is everything reducible to physics and mathmatics? I could ask that question in a few million differant ways, but this question by itself is enough. I lack the answer. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 12/21/03 8:28am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert M. Pirsig. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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Bant428 Registered: Jul '02	Date Posted: 12/21/03 6:30pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	hey, feelins cannot be measured or easily predicted! -----signature----- Not Here Anymore
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EnforcerSG Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 12/21/03 6:43pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Are you sure? On some level, our brain is nothing more than many particles moving around that in theory can be predicted. Not that that means we don't really have feelings or anything like that. A photo is nothing more than paper, glue, and a silver compound, yet there is still an image. Likewise, our minds may be nothing more than atoms with specific energy levels, yet there can still be a personality. -----signature----- The more you fight, the more the sacrifice for peace becomes a waste If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say. God answers all prayers. Sometimes the answer is no. I don't know: I would tell you if I did!
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MasterZap Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/21/03 10:21pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Is everything reducible to physics and mathmatics? Yes. Philosophy; The human equivalent of a cat chasing it's own tail. /Z -----signature----- mental ray Tips blog - http://www.mentalraytips.com ZapTroNic Visuals - http://www.ZapTroNic.com Oldschool Homepage - http://www.Master-Zap.com FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER - http://twitter.com/masterzap
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Dark Lady Mara Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 1:55am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	And science and math aren't? Science was developed after philosophy and meant to be a more precise or complete model of reality. I have yet to see it satisfactorily proved that it's impossible for a model that's better yet to come along in the future. Science works very well, but it's not reality itself. That's why reductionism doesn't work. -----signature----- "Sci Fi has been associated with geeks and dysfunctional, antisocial boys in their basements with video games and stuff like that, as opposed to... the female audience." ~~ SPOILER-FREE TILLLL EPISODE IV "there aren't that many Ls in til." - farraday
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 6:51am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Is everything reducible to physics and mathmatics? Yes. I disagree. What we "know" and think we know changes constantly. "Facts" are in a constant state of flux. Mathematics and physics in terms of chaos and quantum theories and all that pretty much tell us that not everything is reducible to physics and mathematics. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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epic Title: ex mod / rsa Registered: Jul '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 9:02am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science - Date Edited: 12/22/03 9:14am (1 edits total) Edited By: epic
	Mathematics and physics in terms of chaos and quantum theories and all that pretty much tell us that not everything is reducible to physics and mathematics. quantum theory is just something new and absurd that we can't incorporate into our previous knowledge. like you say, "truths" change with new information. but that's no reason to think that it must therefore lay beyond the realm of mathematics and physics.
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 12/22/03 10:06am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	quantum theory is just something new and absurd that we can't incorporate into our previous knowledge Why is it absurd? -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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Darth_MacDaddy Registered: Apr '03	Date Posted: 12/22/03 10:27am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Is everything reducible to physics and mathmatics? I believe it is. If you can know enough about the present state of any scientific system or model than you can predict its behaviour, within the boundaries stated. In Quantum Mechanics this boundary is the uncertainty principle, but the understanding is based around Mathematics and Physics. -----signature----- TPMDF Shadow 6 The very foundation of our everyday world is no more substantial than a promise. No TV and no beer make MacDaddy something, something....Go crazy? Don't mind if I do, blaaaaahhhh!!
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 12/22/03 11:32am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	Next question: There are "Facts" that change all the time, yet many facts remain true like 1+1=2. I know there is some weird problem where you can show 1+1 does not euqal 2, but if I have 1 cup, then add another, there are 2 there. So the more complex "facts" are not facts at all, they are...how shall I say...facts in waiting? Potentialities? How complete a practice is philosophy? Does it try to be complete? -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic-Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God-Michael Shermer I'm a sexy shoeless GOD OF WAR! #347 on SLG's List Of Sexy Men
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 11:42am Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	VadersLaMent... "Is everything reducible to physics and mathmatics?" In short, "no." And the reason for this is that in reducing everything to physics and mathematics, we are left with statements containing syntax, not semantics. Hence theorums that have been reduced to only physics and mathematics can never understand their subject matter. All assignments of meaning to their inputs, internal states and outputs have to be defined from outside the system. Or, if we were to achieve the "mother-of-all understanding about life," we would end up with something that is neither physics nor mathematics. It is a formless mind imparting or attempting to impart meaning on the world around it. The non-algorithmic dimension of mind, of understanding of meaning, is needed to reduce the user's (semantically expressed) requirements into the purely syntactic structural and causal relationships of the mathematical and/or physics relationship. The two are two very different means to very different ends. Science is the study of the natural world, whereas philosophy is the study of meaning. While there is some overlap between the two, using science to understand meaning or philosophy to understand the natural world would be like using a spoon to chop down a redwood tree. Use the right tool for the right job, and you can arrive at the solution. Use the wrong tool for the job, and you might not ever make progress. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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alpha_red Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 12/22/03 12:33pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	The non-algorithmic dimension of mind, of understanding of meaning, is needed to reduce the user's (semantically expressed) requirements into the purely syntactic structural and causal relationships of the mathematical and/or physics relationship. Could you try that again...in Basic this time? -----signature----- Noli manare, manare in memoria. Fleet Junkie, Saxtonian Nightcrawler Yuuzhan'tar GM & EUC Senator \| The strongest bonds are forged in pain. I just officially changed my ship to Jacen/Nen Yim. Eat your heart out, slashers.
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Genghis12 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 12:54pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	You need consciousness to explain the nature of being, of meaning. And consciousness cannot be expressed in mathematics. -----signature----- ========== Intelligently Fitting The newer EU into Established Star Wars Continuity (Or How About a No-Prize) http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=1111146 "Envy the nations that have heroes. Pity the ones that need them." -- Van Zan
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Vaderize03 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 1:06pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	You need consciousness to explain the nature of being, of meaning. And consciousness cannot be expressed in mathematics. No, it can be expressed in biology . And you don't "need" consciousness to explain the nature of anything. The "nature" of things exists regardless of whether or not we "choose" to give them meaning. We only deem it important because we have chosen to do so. The nature of "being" is a subjective experience-and even consciouness, our minds, our thoughts and feelings, and our "beings" follow the same laws that govern the stars. Eventually, they will be explained. I can accept that there is a lot that we don't know, but I do not believe that any of it is unexplainable. Our minds, while a mystery, are certainly not an unsolvable one. Peace, V-03 -----signature----- "Bring your pretty face to my axe....." B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!) "I'm what Willis was talking about"
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Mastadge Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '99	Date Posted: 12/22/03 1:12pm Subject: RE: The Philosophy Of Science
	And you don't "need" consciousness to explain the nature of anything. Can you explain it while you're unconscious? The "nature" of things exists regardless of whether or not we "choose" to give them meaning. The "nature" of things is only their "nature" because we decided to explain them that way. They would do their thing whether or not we ascribed "nature" or "meaning" to them. We think that everything needs to fit into a system, so we explain everything such that it can be fit into a system, and anything else we label anomalous. Just because our minds work that way, doesn't mean that everything has to fit into it. -----signature----- "This will be our reply to violence: To make music more intensely, More beautifully, More devotedly than ever before." - Leonard Bernstein
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