Jedi Council Forums - The social acceptability of dangerous driving

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Author	Topic: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/27/03 10:42am Subject: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	One thing that continually bothers me is the fact that it's still, by and large, socially acceptable for motorists to endanger the lives of other road users by engaging in reckless driving. Michael Jackson was much castigated by the media for dangling his baby son out an open window, but scarcely any outcry will be provoked by a man who admits to sending a multi-tonne piece of metal down the motorway at outside 100mph. I'm at a complete loss as to why this distinction exists, and why the media will come up with complaints such as "we treat traffic offenders more seriously than burglars!" To my way of thinking it's entirely logical to treat dangerous driving more seriously than burglary, because it is nearly as deliberate and the consequences are infinitely worse. Almost every child murder case produces pictures of grieving friends and family, but we seldom see footage of parents who have lost children in road accidents (or, indeed, children who have been orphaned by them). Is the grief of the family and friends of a road accident victim any less than that of the family of a murder victim? I hardly think so. A distinction must, of course, be drawn between safe drivers who merely commit a technical breach of road traffic laws, and motorists who are knowingly reckless and genuinely dangerous. The line can, on occasion, be difficult to draw. But nevertheless, there are many cases where a driver falls clearly on the latter side; and in a case of speeding at 100mph, for instance, I would have no qualms about jailing the person concerned for five years. Dangerous driving is a social menace. Unfortunately, it has yet to be seen as one.
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 12/27/03 10:55am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	I can't say I've ever driven faster than 100 mph, but I have sped (and had three tickets to show for it), I think intention has something to do with it. If you burglarize, you are intending to do harm. Ditto if you commit first-degree murder. If you speed, you are not intending to cause an accident...you are intending to get somewhere faster. If you speed and you do cause a fatal accident, you can be charged with manslaughter or death by vehicle. There is no need to fill up jail cells with people who are in a hurry while murderers and rapists freely roam the streets. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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KnightWriter Title: Administrator Emeritus Registered: Nov '01	Date Posted: 12/27/03 11:07am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	I think what Branthoris is getting at is the culture of acceptance we have created when it comes to dangerous/reckless driving (we're in the process of creating a similar acceptance when it comes to cell phones and driving), and that acceptance is at the root of the problem. -----signature----- Opposing Scrooge Economics since 2009
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GarthSchmader Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/27/03 2:53pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	Hear, hear! What can we do about it? -----signature----- "MTV does for MUSIC what KFC does for CHICKEN!" -Louis Black
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MyKe1138 Registered: Aug '03	Date Posted: 12/27/03 4:16pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	It's the slow, "safe", trying-too-hard drivers who cause the accidents... -----signature----- "You're wrong. Soon, I'll be banned... and you with me." ... Sir "phrase deemed inappropriate by the Mods a year after the fact" of the Knights of The Sarcasm Table
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Jedi_Hood Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 12/27/03 11:57pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	It's the slow, "safe", trying-too-hard drivers who cause the accidents... True, to a point - but there are idiots out there who drive recklessly fast.
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 4:31am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	anakin_girl, a person who blows up a plane to reclaim insurance money on the cargo does not act for the purpose of killing the passengers; indeed, he will be very happy if they survive. Nevertheless, if the bomb explodes and kills everyone onboard, he will be convicted of murder, because he must have foreseen that the deaths of the passengers were a virtual certainty. For the same reason, if the bomb doesn't explode and harms nobody, he would probably still be liable for attempted murder. The point being that if you knowingly put another person in danger of serious harm, you take the consequences. Whether putting them in harm's way was your underlying purpose is really beside the point. Dangerous drivers are knowingly putting other road users in substantial danger of serious harm, and should be punished accordingly, whether or not an accident occurs. But yes, what I'm really getting at are not laws but attitudes. At the moment, the culture is that dangerous driving simply doesn't matter.
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Jedi_Xen Registered: Sep '01	Date Posted: 12/28/03 6:13am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	I dont know alot of people complain about how there are a lot of maniacs on the roads. I was complaining about this the other day when someone drove on the sidewalk to pass me, and nearly clipped me when they cut me off. I wasn't going to slow I looked at my speedometer and I was going nearly 10 miles above the speed limit. A problem Ive noticed is people are running red lights with greater frequency. They see the light is green as they get closer it turns yellow, but just before they pull to the line the light turns red. Does it matter to them? Nope they run the red light because it just turned red. Someone sitting patiently at the light just turned green has to wait for these people to get past before they can go. That is incredibly unfair, especially when two or three cars follow that one through. Sometimes I wish I were a police officer in an unmarked car, I guarantee you Id be writing at least 10 tickets a day just for that offense alone. Though my biggest pet peeve is when people turn with out using their turning signals. Is it really that hard not to turn that little blinky light on before you make the turn? You might know you have to turn there, but the people behind you dont know that. I wish police would start giving tickets for that, alot of people will suddenly find themselves in the court room explaining to a judge why they find turning a turning signal on is too difficult for them to do while driving. -----signature----- "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.-Theodore Roosevelt
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TeeBee Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 7:45am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving - Date Edited: 12/28/03 7:47am (1 edits total) Edited By: TeeBee
	Yes, yes! To Jedi_Xen you listen! I despise redlight runners, especially here in Montreal where at the vast majority of the intersections the lights turn green at exactly the precise moment the other turns red. At the same time, I often see people edging up to jump the green as the second it changes from red. This is a recipe for disaster, and I'm surprised there are not more of them. I also had people pass me on the right on the sidewalk - not one but two cars sped past me, stopped briefly for the red, then continued on thru the intersection against the red! I was like "Ok.....NOW I think I've seen it all!" At least they stopped at the red to make sure no one was coming. The worst tho is people who get impatient, then harrass you when you've done nothing wrong. This happpened the other night. The merge ramp began as two lanes, then merged into one before merging onto the highway. We were in the part where it had become one lane, and out of nowhere a car sped up onto our bumper and attempted to pass, but there was no more room anymore because his lane ended. He rode us until the lane merged onto the highway, then passed us with inches to spare, got in front of us with inches to spare, and TWICE slammed on his brakes, causing us to nearly hit him. Ooooooooo...sometimes I would just LIKE to hit them!! This guy really deserved to get ticketed big time, and I hope he does someday, before he kills someone. Actually, that kind of harrassing aggressive driving deserves a night or two in jail, in my opinion. Even better. I really hate getting in the car sometimes. With jackasses like that on the road, I'd rather stay home, thanks. -----signature----- If I am me because I am I, and you are you because you are you, then I am me and you are you. But if I am me because I am not you, and you are you because you are not me, then I am not and you are not. - Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Kotzk
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 9:00am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	Writing more tickets certainly wouldn't solve the problem. Citations have one real purpose, and it's not to change driving behavior. Tickets alone do not affect the long term behavior of drivers, unless a department has the resources to keep a continual saturation patrol on an area. Everyone always wants the police to catch the other dangerous driver, until it is them being pulled over. Then, reality comes into play. Nearly everyone has a reason to speed, save for an occasional drag racer, or someone trying out a new sports car. As a result, one person's "reckless driver" is simply another person's "I'm late for the doctor." Certainly, in theory, people don't want to tolerate dangerous driving.. For example, in Illinois, off the top of my head, there are 4 laws relating to excessive speed specifically. What has to change are people's attitudes that they are owed a certain behavior. Laws alone can't do this. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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Devilanse Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 11:45am Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	It's the slow, "safe", trying-too-hard drivers who cause the accidents... Wrong. Its the impatient, lane weaving, tailgating, cell phone conversing, road rage drivers who cause the accidents. -----signature----- WAR!
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GarthSchmader Registered: Jan '03	Date Posted: 12/28/03 12:46pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	[broken record]So what do we do about it?!?[/broken record] -----signature----- "MTV does for MUSIC what KFC does for CHICKEN!" -Louis Black
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anakin_girl Title: Founding Member & Retired FF CR Charlotte , NC Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 12/28/03 2:18pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	anakin_girl, a person who blows up a plane to reclaim insurance money on the cargo does not act for the purpose of killing the passengers; indeed, he will be very happy if they survive. Nevertheless, if the bomb explodes and kills everyone onboard, he will be convicted of murder, because he must have foreseen that the deaths of the passengers were a virtual certainty. For the same reason, if the bomb doesn't explode and harms nobody, he would probably still be liable for attempted murder. Do the majority of plane bombs kill people? Yes. In fact, I have never heard of anyone putting a bomb on a plane without the intention of killing someone. Do the majority of drivers going faster than the speed limit kill people? No. As I said, I've gotten three speeding tickets and have sped plenty of times without getting caught. I have never caused an accident nor killed anyone. My brother got a ticket for running into someone's fence in the rain. He was going 25 miles per hour, but it was dark and rainy. If he had hit a person instead of a fence, the person could have been injured or killed. Should my brother be in jail for attempted murder? If you got your way, the number of jail cells and police officers would have to multiply by a factor of ten. We would become a police state. No one should be charged with murder or attempted murder unless the person actually committed or attempted murder. Even people who drive drunk--and driving drunk is a hell of a lot more dangerous than speeding--aren't charged with murder or attempted murder unless they actually cause a harmful or fatal accident. That being said, I do think the penalties for drunk driving should be tightened here--as in, do it once and lose your license permanently. -----signature----- "A person should not believe in an -ism, a person should believe in himself." Ferris Bueller
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Branthoris Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 3:45pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving - Date Edited: 12/28/03 3:46pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Branthoris
	anakin_girl, I never said that the risks involved in plane bombing and dangerous driving are the same. One carries a virtual certainty that someone will be killed, while the other creates only a significant chance. However, the point remains that if a person knowingly creates a risk (of whatever severity), they can be held responsible, even if their actual 'purpose' is unrelated. Another thing I never said is that an accident automatically means that dangerous driving was involved. If your brother was driving recklessly, he should indeed be in jail. But I'm in no position to know whether that was the case. There is a factor called deterrence which comes into play. If someone knew that topping 100mph meant a five-year jail sentence, the chances of them speeding would be much reduced. Imprisonment only in the case of dangerous driving actually leading to an accident obviously has very little deterrence value, since if an accident happens, there's a high probability you will be killed anyway. Attempted murder does not necessarily harm anyone, but involves the intention to kill, and is sentenced accordingly. Dangerous driving involves less than the intention to cause a death--merely the creation of a significant risk that death will occur. It is a lesser infraction than attempted murder, but is not nearly as excusable as the media seem to believe.
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Mr44 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 3:50pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	Well, not all criminal acts include the intent of the individual. For example, reckless driving is one such "self-contained" crimes. The offense of reckless driving can be charged when the offender simply acts in manner which has a willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property according to the community standards of the area. The motivation of the person is irrelevent for the offense. Aggravated reckless driving occurs if the action results in great bodily harm or death. Even people who drive drunk--and driving drunk is a hell of a lot more dangerous than speeding--aren't charged with murder or attempted murder unless they actually cause a harmful or fatal accident. This is true because murder is an offense that relies on the intent of the offender. A DUI can certainly be charged with reckless homicide if somebody was killed. In this case, being under the influence is automatically presumed to be evidence of the reckless act, regardless of the individual motivation. BTW, just as an aside, your incohate offenses (attempt, conspiracy, solicting, etc..) can only be charged if you meet the definition of the corresponding crime. In other words, a DUI would never be charged with attempted murder unless it could be shown that the person had prior planning to go out, get drunk, and run someone over.. The "attempt" still has to represent the original crime, it's just that it wasn't carried out. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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anidanami124 Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 12/28/03 4:15pm Subject: RE: The social acceptability of dangerous driving
	If you speed, you are not intending to cause an accident...you are intending to get somewhere faster. If you speed and you do cause a fatal accident, you can be charged with manslaughter or death by vehicle. There is no need to fill up jail cells with people who are in a hurry while murderers and rapists freely roam the streets. Anakin_Girl having ran a redlight and hitting someones car (thank god no one was hurt). I can tell you when you speed are drive in a way you should not your car becomes a weapon. I have seen people speed in work zones. I even knew someone who was killed by someone going to fast because they wanted to get some where. They went right through a red light hit the kids car and killed him. Did the guy mean to kill him? No. But he still did because he did not go the speed limit and did not care that there was a red light. Driving a car is something that if someone can not do right they should not do at all. Driving is not right. -----signature----- Dark Lords of the JCC My Heros of Music Epica 1. Simone Simons 2. Mark Jansen 3. Yves Huts 4. Coen Janssen 5. Ad Sluijter 6. Jeroen Simons 1)ROTS 2)TESB 3)TPM 4)AOTC 5)ANH 6)ROTJ
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