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Author	Topic: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
Armenian_Jedi Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 3/31/04 3:51pm Subject: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion - Date Edited: 12/18/05 5:25am (2 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
	For those of you who don't know, the Armenian Genocide was an event that started on April 24th, 1915. The Ottoman Empire massacred over 1.5 million Armenians in order to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Turkey has denied this for almost a century now. Although a lot of country's have declared that they recognize that this travesty has happened, it has yet to appear in any World History books. I had to go through two World History books in my class. And they both have only one paragraph saying that the Turks slaughtered Armenians. After that there is nothing. Nothing saying how many Armenians were massacred, how it happened, or why it happened. The truth is that if you're not Armenian, Turkish, or have a special "reason" for knowing about the Armenian Genocide, you almost certainly do not. The Holocaust is known all across the world as a great crime and people know who was behind it all and can probably tell you things they know about the Holocaust. They'll tell you about what the Jews had to go through and about concentration camps. And these aren't people who study the Holocaust as a hobby or as an interest. These are people that learn that from their World History class. If I asked you who Adolf Hitler is, everyone would know off the top of their heads. Now if I ask you who Abdul Hamid II is, how many of you can honestly say who that is? Now after the Armenian Genocide you'd think that since the entire world knew what was going on, they would punish the Ottoman Empire somehow, right? Nope. The people of Turkey got away with it. No one stood up and said, hey this is wrong, something must be done. No one tried to punish Turkey. Here is a quote from Hitler: "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?" He said that to persuade his associates that the Holocaust would be tolerated by the rest of the world. Alright, I rambled on long enough, I'll let some other people talk about this subject. If you don't know anything about the Armenian Genocide you can ask me or any other Armenian person that posts on this thread, because I'm sure they will be happy to inform you about it. And also, this thread is in no way an anti-turk thread. If you want to make racist remarks about turks or any other race for that matter, this is not the place to do it. -----signature----- 4-8-15-16-23-42 ~Member of One Mic~ Kurt Warner MVP watch: TD: 30 INT: 14 YDS: 4583 PCT: 67.1 RAT: 96.9 Packers: 6-10(3rd in NFC North) Cardinals: 9-7(1st in NFC West)
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 4:53pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Ah, the forgotten genocide. It's hard to explain the effect this has on me, given as how I've had some very close Armenian friends. One example you may know is that of Sen. Bob Dole, who had been saved by Armenian surgeon. I've seen, firsthand, their hurt and outrage as Israel, desperate for an alliance with Turkey in an unfriendly region, sides with Turkey on this matter. Israel, dear friends, has sought to maintain a monopoly on historical genocide and persecution. The death of 1.5 million of some of the most beautiful people ever was not only a crime against humanity by Turkey, it was a completely pointless massacre. Whereas there was an ethnic component to Rwanda or Bosnia, or a heavily bastardised version of Christian eugenics inspiring the Holocaust, the Armenian died for the crime of being in the way. And still Turkey denies this crime, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. And the United States refuses to acknowledge it formally, to keep Turkey as an Ally. And Israel revised it's stance, to keep it's ally status with Turkey intact; Jews, it seems, have a monopoly on suffering, persecution and genocide. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Darth_Guy Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 3/31/04 5:33pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Why does the Republic of Turkey deny it? Didn't the Ottoman government commit the crime? -----signature----- Pin my medals on my chest!
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BaronFel88 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/31/04 5:36pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion - Date Edited: 3/31/04 5:41pm (1 edits total) Edited By: BaronFel88
	Yes, Turkey's usefulness (missile bases) in the Cold War meant the US would side with them on this issue, but now I hope that after their belligerence in Operation Iraqi Freedom (the government is slowly leaning away from its secularity that made it an ally in the Middle East) the US will abandon its stance of looking the other way with regards to the Armenian Genocide (don't forget the Ottomans also killed/relocated several Greeks and Jews in Turkey as well). -----signature----- "Oh the pain" -Joe Benigno
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 5:41pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Yes, the New Turks had that blood on their hands, but they won't admit it out of pride, I guess. Ask a Turkish official... E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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BaronFel88 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/31/04 5:48pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Henry Morgenthau Sr, America's ambassador to the Ottoman Empire from 1913-16, noted the deportations and executions as "cold-blooded, calculating state policy." His successor, Abram Elkus reported that the "Young Turks" (ruling government of the Ottoman Empire) were continuing an ". . . unchecked policy of extermination through starvation, exhaustion, and brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history." -----signature----- "Oh the pain" -Joe Benigno
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 5:52pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	It was also Morgenthau who noted how hauntingly beautiful the Armenian people are. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Armenian_Jedi Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:05pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	It's a strange thing for America to not formally acknowledge the Armenian Genocide seeing as how the Armenian Genocide and the massacres of the Armenians in the mid 1890's played a large part in expanding Americas International affairs. The Armenian Massacres of the 1890's was the first international trip Clara Barton and her Red Cross took. In this book I'm reading called The Burning Tigris, it goes more in depth then Ihave just now, but it truly did play a large part in America's history. Yet you don't see too much about it in ANY World History or American History book. -----signature----- 4-8-15-16-23-42 ~Member of One Mic~ Kurt Warner MVP watch: TD: 30 INT: 14 YDS: 4583 PCT: 67.1 RAT: 96.9 Packers: 6-10(3rd in NFC North) Cardinals: 9-7(1st in NFC West)
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:29pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Three words, my Armenian Friend: Turkey the Ally. That's why. Sadly. How do you feel about Israel siding with Turkey on this matter? E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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BaronFel88 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:36pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	In 1994, Israel officially condemned the Armenian Genocide, branding it "genocide, not war." -----signature----- "Oh the pain" -Joe Benigno
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:37pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion - Date Edited: 3/31/04 6:42pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Ender_Sai
	But since... Israel has basically said that it should be a matter for historians to discuss, not politicians; in effect, it's something for academics to lunch over... E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Armenian_Jedi Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:47pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	Well, how do you think I feel, being an Armenian? I truly think that the genocide is one of the biggest problems in the world right NOW. How can a country go off and kill that many people, and not get punished for it? I love America, I live in America, but C'mon! We, as in Americans, can interfere with every country's business but we can't do anything about the slaughter of my people. It almost makes me sick to my stomach. -----signature----- 4-8-15-16-23-42 ~Member of One Mic~ Kurt Warner MVP watch: TD: 30 INT: 14 YDS: 4583 PCT: 67.1 RAT: 96.9 Packers: 6-10(3rd in NFC North) Cardinals: 9-7(1st in NFC West)
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Darth_Guy Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:53pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion - Date Edited: 3/31/04 6:53pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth_Guy
	Well, no offense, but the United States can't do anything 90 years later, 'cept to make Turkey acknowledge it. -----signature----- Pin my medals on my chest!
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Ender_Sai Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Feb '01	Date Posted: 3/31/04 6:55pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	The point Armenians often make is that would be enough. They want justice for what happened, but they want to heal first and foremost. E_S -----signature----- In this truth he knew himself to be. From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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Moff_D Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 3/31/04 7:03pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	The whole problem is how you define what the Turks did. They wouldn't call it Genocide--more like an ethnic cleansing. 'Cleansing' doesn't necessarily entail the death of a population, merely removal. More often than not it does involve mass death. The Turks forcibly removed Armenians, that so many hundreds of thousands died as a result of this would be called an unfortunate consequence. Or at least that is likely what they would say if pushed on the issue. It was the rudimentary begiinings of the industrialization of killing that Hitler would perfect a two decades later, although a case can be made that the Germans likewise were in favour of simply moving the Jews out (witness the Madagascar plan) and began systematically exterminating them once they had no other options left. It all gets very tangled and sticky to even talk about it rationally, even though what took place was inhuman. What people can do to each other. Anybody interested in exploring further, I recommend Norman Naimark's Fires of Hatred. Its an excellent place to start. -----signature----- 'Why are you always smiling?' 'Cause it's all so ******* hysterical.' -Road To Perdition. Apt, no?
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starsailor721 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 3/31/04 9:30pm Subject: RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
	I've been through my fair share of history classes but until now I never knew this happened. Good for you Armenian_Jedi for bringing the issue to light.
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