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Topic:
The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Altaysky
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 12:08am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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The Armenian Genocide definitely happened and it is not possible to defend ultranationalist Turkish extremist fringe groups who coerce the state via violence to not recognize it.
However, the question of whether the current Turkish state and people should be held liable is disputable. The Ottoman Empire treated the Armenians like dirt, but did they honestly treat the rest of the Empire much better? After all, the modern Turkish state was founded by people who fought against and destroyed the Ottoman Empire. Turkey wasn't really a nationstate or really a nation until the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the same way France wasn't really a nationstate until the revolutions. The Ottoman Empire was a country, but not a nationstate. It clearly happened, but are the Turkish people culpable in it? The Ottoman Empire was clearly responsible for it, but the question of whether the Turkish people are is rather sticky simply because the Ottoman Empire was a state that did not represent the Turks. They overthrew it for a very good reason.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/7/07 1:26am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Honestly I don't see why it is a question. Foremost, we're discussing an event 100 years in the past, and I don't see any significant way to argue that the people of Turkey should bare responsibility for something that happened before they were born. Second, and more relevant, is that it was an entire seperate entity in the Ottoman Empire rather than Turkey that did it. With those two factors, on what grounds could one argue that the current Turkish state or people be held liable?
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
8/10/07 4:57pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Honestly I don't see why it is a question. Foremost, we're discussing an event 100 years in the past, and I don't see any significant way to argue that the people of Turkey should bare responsibility for something that happened before they were born. Second, and more relevant, is that it was an entire seperate entity in the Ottoman Empire rather than Turkey that did it. With those two factors, on what grounds could one argue that the current Turkish state or people be held liable?
it's a different government, but very much the same people. It was their ancestors that did it, we're not placing blame on them, we just want them to admit to what their people did.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/10/07 5:24pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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It would be a portion of the ancestory of some. I don't see how that equates to "the Turkish people"
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Jedi-Roxy
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 10:08pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Honestly I don't see why it is a question. Foremost, we're discussing an event 100 years in the past, and I don't see any significant way to argue that the people of Turkey should bare responsibility for something that happened before they were born. Second, and more relevant, is that it was an entire seperate entity in the Ottoman Empire rather than Turkey that did it. With those two factors, on what grounds could one argue that the current Turkish state or people be held liable?
Oh really...?
It's funny you should take this position. TO THIS DAY in America, families and governments in the South are being held responsible for African slavery in the states and are still TO THIS DAY paying restitution to the families of former slaves... Over 100 years later. Are the American people as a whole responsible for what happened back then? We must be since Federal and State taxes go towards paying restitution...
As the descendant of survivors and escapees of the Armenian Genocide, I personally would be fine with just a "yeah, we did it. It happened. Sorry for trying to cover it up for 100 years." Recognition would be wonderful. I don't need restitution payments, just an apology.
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Jedi-Roxy
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/16/07 4:41pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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HAHAHAHA A_J and I picked on the same person for making the same statement and said pretty much the same thing... wow... 'tis wonderful 
Brittney
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
8/16/07 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Sorry Lowbacca, I'm with AJ on this one.
You really cannot understate how important an acknowledgment of fault by Turkey is to the Armenian people.
It's a simple question of justice.
E_S
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/16/07 7:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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Jedi-Roxy posted:
Oh really...?
It's funny you should take this position. TO THIS DAY in America, families and governments in the South are being held responsible for African slavery in the states and are still TO THIS DAY paying restitution to the families of former slaves... Over 100 years later. Are the American people as a whole responsible for what happened back then? We must be since Federal and State taxes go towards paying restitution...
As the descendant of survivors and escapees of the Armenian Genocide, I personally would be fine with just a "yeah, we did it. It happened. Sorry for trying to cover it up for 100 years." Recognition would be wonderful. I don't need restitution payments, just an apology.
There hasn't been resitution for slavery in any formal sense in the United States though. The closest is that some states have apologised for slavery, but there haven't been any restitution payments.
Second, there SHOULDN'T be any payments in the U.S. for that. Immediately after, when it would've benefited people that were suffering directly... that would be a very different case, similar to how there were reperations to those sent to internment camps during WWII in the U.S.
Now, I will say that Turkey at present should still acknowledge it for what it was. I think that while fault and responsibility for it by modern entities can be argued, the actual classification of what happened as a genocide is not something that can be easily questioned, and that Turkey should acknowledge that it was a genocide.
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Jedi-Roxy
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/16/07 8:53pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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No... I'm pretty sure restitutions are being handed out in a more recent sense. But all, well maybe not all (getting our mountain back would be nice), the people of Armenia want is the acknowledgement that a grevious crime was committed against our ancestors.
Brittney
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
8/16/07 10:15pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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To put it simply, they're not.
If you read through here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_for_slavery
you'll note there is no mention of any reparations for slavery having happened. Please cite it if you're going to keep claiming it happened.
And again, I'd agree fully that Turkey should acknowledge that there was a genocide against the Armenian people.
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Jedi-Roxy
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
8/27/07 10:16am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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My mistake. People are just screaming about them, not actually getting them.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
9/8/07 8:50pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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A better analogy might be the apology and reparations the US government issued to Japanese-American victims of internment camps during WWII. I believe it came about forty years after the fact. Of course, even then, it's not a perfect analogy because the goal of that internment wasn't to kill its victims. I don't think the majority of countries that have committed genocide have paid reparations to the victims. I'm not aware of too many examples off the top of my head.
It's an academic question, really, because I don't think it's very likely the political environment in Turkey will even allow for the discussion of reparations for at least a couple of generations. It's not just the government that denies the genocide; many Turkish people continue to regard its existence as a contentious topic.
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/27/07 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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This argument has gotten too far into reparations.
Trust me, me and most other Armenians don't want a dime from Turkey. They don't even need to apologize for the act itself as far as I'm concerned. To just acknowledge that it happened and to apologize for covering it up will be enough.
Which brings me to another point. Lowbacca, if it's not the same people as you claim, why can't they admit that it happened? They don't need to say that it was their ancestors that did it, but why can't they just admit that a genocide took place? The answer is simple, because it was the same people, it was their ancestors.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/27/07 9:51pm
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
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That it was their ancestors does NOT make it the same people. In fact, that you point out it was their ancestors clearly distinguishes that it was not the current people of Turkey.
That aside, I did get into a debate on this with someone that took the stance that while it was not a good thing, it also wasn't a genocide, saying it was a relocation attempt of a people at a time when the Ottoman Empire couldn't focus on finding specific people because they were more concerned with WWI and made their decisions based on that, although he acknowledged that individuals did commit atrocities but argued that it wasn't actually a genocide.
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Armenian_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
9/28/07 11:57am
Subject:
RE: The Armenian Genocide: An Official Discussion
- Date Edited:
9/28/07 11:57am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Armenian_Jedi
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
That it was their ancestors does NOT make it the same people. In fact, that you point out it was their ancestors clearly distinguishes that it was not the current people of Turkey.
You're right... it was their great grandfathers... totally not the same people. 
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
That aside, I did get into a debate on this with someone that took the stance that while it was not a good thing, it also wasn't a genocide, saying it was a relocation attempt of a people at a time when the Ottoman Empire couldn't focus on finding specific people because they were more concerned with WWI and made their decisions based on that, although he acknowledged that individuals did commit atrocities but argued that it wasn't actually a genocide.
Yeah, the person you had a debate with must have read some beautifully written Turkish propaganda. It's amazing how Turkey can still convince people that killing 1.5 million Armenians wasn't a genocide it was a "relocation attempt". The Turks used WWI as an excuse and a cover to do what they had been wanting to do for a long time. In 1895 they killed 300,000 Armenians for no reason what so ever. I assume you think that was a failed relocation attempt?
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